Author Topic: The next venture  (Read 4195 times)

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Offline Middle Child

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The next venture
« on: July 22, 2012, 07:18:48 PM »
My beginning efforts of raw feeding are in this thread

http://parenting-furkids.com/index.php?topic=1433.0

Now that I am satisfied, for the time being, with Little Cat's regimen, I am turning my sights on Struvite Kitty. A quick summary of SK is, she was on c/d kibble for lower urinary tract disease for 6 1/2 years (because she wouldn't eat the canned c/d) and it just about ruined her digestion. In January 2012 I said good bye to the c/d kibble forever, and the challenge of finding a canned food she would, and could, eat began. It's been quite an adventure.

Fast forward to now, she is eating two flavors of one brand, By Nature Organic, she eats the turkey&chicken one day, and the chicken&liver the next.  Any variation away from these results in regurgitation. However, I am just not comfortable having her eat the same brand, even two different flavors, every single day. I think I have run out of canned options.

The challenge is finding a raw food she will eat, she can tolerate, and that is low enough in phosphurous and magnesium.  The By Nature Organic foods are very close, on a dry matter comparison, to the c/d in these two mineral percentages.

While she does like the Stella & Chewy's freeze dried (re-hydrated) she has trouble with the bone in it.  She likes the Ziwi Peak air dried lamb, but that is a "dry" food, being only 15 % moisture, so not really appropriate for her.

The Rad Cat Lamb frozen raw has the right phos/magnesium numbers, and has the added benefits of not using bone (they use a bone meal instead), plus it would be a different protein for her. (if she'll eat it)

I am working on a way to get some Rad Cat to try it.  No local source, found a place that ships, but they have a four pound minimum for shipping raw frozen. I don't have any place to store four pounds of frozen raw food, so I would have to purchase a small chest freezer.  I don't want to make that kind of expenditure until I am sure this is going to work for her.

So I'm still working on options, with rad cat.

..to be continued

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 07:36:16 PM »
In the mean time, I have been offering slivers of raw meat to the cats every time I cook meat.  Which isn't very often, but now and then I might make a bit of steak, and I do cook chicken at least once every two weeks (I usually cook all at once, then freeze, and take it out and reheat for meals. I hate to cook, LOL)..  Little Cat and Top cat eat these slivers readily. Struvite Kitty, the one I really want to like it, does not.

Then I remembered the advice I was given once, to slip bits of raw into her canned food. So, the other night I took out a chunk of thin steak (those I cut up into little pieces 2" x 1", and freeze them uncooked, so when I want meat in a salad I take a chunk out, slice it into slivers, cook it fast in the frying pan and put it in my salad).

I took one sliver off that chunk of frozen steak and cut it into tiny bits.  Really the pieces were about the size of those 'jimmies' people like to put on ice cream.  Five little jimmie sized bits of raw steak, and I mixed them into her .375 ounces of canned food.  She ate it right up!  And kept it down!

 I watched her closely and could see the change in her face when she came across a bit of steak. The first taste was funny. She stopped and her nose wrinkled, then she "chewed" and "chewed" and swallowed and licked her chops. When she returned to her dish, it was with a particular extra enthusiasm, LOL.

Tonight it was chicken.  I got a little braver and made the slivers slightly bigger.  Five thin slivers of raw chicken breast, about the size of a finger nail each, mixed into her .375 ounces of canned food.  Again, she ate it right up, diligently "chewed" the chicken pieces, and kept it all down!

I am feeling much more hopeful now about getting some variety in her diet. Even if it never goes further than little slivers of raw meat added to her canned meals, still, it's something.

Looks like I am going to need that chest freezer no matter what, if I am going to be keeping meat in stock for her. I have no idea where to put even a small one, my apartment is tiny with minimal wall space.

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 08:03:35 PM »
The third experiment I got greedy and made the little steak chunks too big and, while she ate them (mixed in her wet food) she regurgitated right after.

So next time it will be back to tiny pieces.

Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 02:16:58 AM »
yeah... beef can be a little tough on a digestive system that hasn't been conditioned for raw.  Stick with chicken for the time being, or very thin strips of beef if you like.  Glad the mixing it in with wet seems to be working otherwise.   thumbsup1
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 02:31:48 AM by FurMonster Mom »
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Offline Lola

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 01:06:56 AM »
I stick to chicken also.  Beef didn't go over at all.  Didn't want to turn anyone off to the idea of raw, so I only did it once.  Are you buying organic chicken, MC?  I don't feed that much, so I'm not totally stressed about the kind of chicken...yet.  I think I read that organic was the way to go...to know what the chicken was fed.     
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Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 10:44:16 AM »
From the perspective of raw-feeding cats: except for the persistent diligence against "enhanced" meats, the only time anyone really needs to be concerned about purchasing organic or range-free, etc. meats is if their cat has proven to have such a high intolerance to grains they react to over-the-counter chicken or beef. Naturally, cats diagnosed with IBD/IBS are prime candidates for this.

And even those cats are often able to eat "regular" raw meats once they've been on raw long enough for their digestive systems to recover from their kibble-fed days.

Something else to keep in mind... eating too fast or eating foods that are too cold can both cause regurgitation, too. Some cats take to beef so readily they gulp it down, then bring it right back up, unfortunately (there's nothing wrong with letting the re-eat it, by the way!).

MC, I haven't read your entire thread yet, but in case it's applicable, I want to throw this out -- struvite crystals are completely normal in a cat's urine and typically only become a problem when that urine becomes concentrated. Vets prescribe diets with "special" mineral levels, but really all the cat needs is the proper hydration. As you get more and more into raw feeding, I think you can pay less and less attention to mineral levels, as long as the food contains the necessary moisture levels.

Another benefit of feeding fresh raw meats over commercial fare is that they naturally maintain the cat's PH at optimal levels.

If any of this has already been discussed in your other thread, feel free to ignore it.  :D

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 09:31:15 PM »
From the perspective of raw-feeding cats: except for the persistent diligence against "enhanced" meats, the only time anyone really needs to be concerned about purchasing organic or range-free, etc. meats is if their cat has proven to have such a high intolerance to grains they react to over-the-counter chicken or beef. Naturally, cats diagnosed with IBD/IBS are prime candidates for this.

And even those cats are often able to eat "regular" raw meats once they've been on raw long enough for their digestive systems to recover from their kibble-fed days.

Something else to keep in mind... eating too fast or eating foods that are too cold can both cause regurgitation, too. Some cats take to beef so readily they gulp it down, then bring it right back up, unfortunately (there's nothing wrong with letting the re-eat it, by the way!).

MC, I haven't read your entire thread yet, but in case it's applicable, I want to throw this out -- struvite crystals are completely normal in a cat's urine and typically only become a problem when that urine becomes concentrated. Vets prescribe diets with "special" mineral levels, but really all the cat needs is the proper hydration. As you get more and more into raw feeding, I think you can pay less and less attention to mineral levels, as long as the food contains the necessary moisture levels.

Another benefit of feeding fresh raw meats over commercial fare is that they naturally maintain the cat's PH at optimal levels.

If any of this has already been discussed in your other thread, feel free to ignore it.  :D

AC

Thank you for your in put AC!  Struvite Kitty is showing no symptoms of urinary tract problems, and I know what to look for. Her last urinalysis ended up being a home catch, and I think it was just too long in transport from home to vet (just over half an hour), though it was caught in a sterile cup straight from her as she peed.  The pH was 8 and the vet said there were a ton of crystals. My vet was very concerned about this. She knows I am very resistant to "prescription" diets now, even trying other brands of canned (RC or Purina)  and we did discuss urine acidifiers but I am not convinced she needs one.

But SK is in the habit of peeing in front of me, she even TELLS me when she is heading to the litter box to pee because she knows it is important to me.  She pees three or sometimes four times a day, normal sized pees.  There is no hesitation at all, no flinching as if the pee was hurting her, she jumps up to the boxes (platform) turns to make sure I am watching (often with a "prrt!") squats and releases her urine.

When she was on the awful c/d kibble she only peed twice a day, because she was a very poor drinker. The c/d kept her pH at 6.4 but it drove me crazy, feeding her that awful stuff, I worried constantly about dehydration and diabetes and it has taken it's toll.  It's been 8 months now she's been off it, and I am still having some regurgitation issues.  But she has a rough time with hairballs too, during the shedding months, won't allow grooming, and the pumpkin was really upsetting her tummy, too. (I do have one cat on daily pumpkin, for constipation)

All canned foods are fed in small amounts, always warmed up first.  Struvite Kitty is a very slow eater and is fed very very small amounts at at time.  Most of her meals are only .37 ounces at a time with a half hour in between.  Twice a day (but not after a long fast) I try for .75 ounces in one serving.  She still takes cosequin every day, and proviable with her last meal at night.

All meals are warmed by:  I run hot water over the glass saucer.  I put the food in the hot dish, and place the dish in another saucer with hot water in it for a few minutes.

I honestly don't know if I will ever go to a prey model raw diet.  The work involved, both physical and mental, and the fear that I will do it wrong, is just too too intimidating.  My goal is to keep them on a variety of sources of food, both canned, commercial raw, and some snacks of raw such as gizzards for all, and wings for the two who don't have trouble digesting bone. (not SK, no bone for her)

I know you are available to help me, if I ever do decide to go to home made raw or prey model.  And I know you are available to help me, with anything in between too.

 thankyou1   HeadButt

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 09:41:27 PM »
yeah... beef can be a little tough on a digestive system that hasn't been conditioned for raw.  Stick with chicken for the time being, or very thin strips of beef if you like.  Glad the mixing it in with wet seems to be working otherwise.   thumbsup1

I think it was more the size of the chunks, rather than that it was beef, though.  She didn't have any trouble when it was tiny bits.  She just can't handle chunks.

I am getting closer to having an ultrasound done, though, just for my own peace of mind, since she is still regurgitating about  every five days.  Sometimes, though not always,  when she regurgitates one day, she regurgitates the next day, too, then nothing again for another five days. Sometimes there is fur in it, sometimes, not. (Yes, I pick it apart before I clean it up)

 I just hate to put her through the stress of it.  It means a long long drive in the car to the specialist, and then all the stress of being at a strange vet.  They will have to anesthetize her, so I guess that will reduce her stress for some of the time anyway.  But the only anesthesia I will allow used in my cats is sevoflurane, so I have to find out about that, in advance, too.

I stick to chicken also.  Beef didn't go over at all.  Didn't want to turn anyone off to the idea of raw, so I only did it once.  Are you buying organic chicken, MC?  I don't feed that much, so I'm not totally stressed about the kind of chicken...yet.  I think I read that organic was the way to go...to know what the chicken was fed.     


I'm not buying organic chicken. While she cannot tolerate anything with corn in it anymore (including hair ball remedies that have corn syrup) the chicken in the By Nature Organic that she is eating every day (and the turkey) seems to be doing okay for her, with the exception of the periodic regurgitation mentioned above.  But I am anxious to get her on another protein, and that is going to be, hopefully, the Rad Cat frozen raw lamb.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 10:51:08 PM »
I'm only mentioning this b/c I've seen it tried with reported success by another person: http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/cat/all with a "sickly" sort of cat. They've got several options for cats http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/cat but that raw one is the one mentioned, and I've seen it at Petco before when getting training liver for my BRT puppy. They've also got freeze-dried "raw".

I don't have cats though, so I really can't recommend anything for them, just passing along what I've heard; however, we're planning on trying that for our next trip in September (we're RVers) since it looks much more convenient than my usual way & it's 95% meat--so it would be 95% like what I already do.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 06:58:56 AM »
I'm only mentioning this b/c I've seen it tried with reported success by another person: http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/cat/all with a "sickly" sort of cat. They've got several options for cats http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/cat but that raw one is the one mentioned, and I've seen it at Petco before when getting training liver for my BRT puppy. They've also got freeze-dried "raw".

I don't have cats though, so I really can't recommend anything for them, just passing along what I've heard; however, we're planning on trying that for our next trip in September (we're RVers) since it looks much more convenient than my usual way & it's 95% meat--so it would be 95% like what I already do.

Thanks Dee Dee!  I won't use the Nature's Variety mainly because of the fruits and vegetables added.  But also because I need something that doesn't use bone ground into the mix.  Rad Cat uses "human grade" bone meal rather than bone.

For Freeze dried I am using Stella&Chewy's, but only one cat is eating that, and not Struvite Kitty (because of the bone)

Offline DeeDee

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 09:57:28 AM »
You know, ever since seeing this episode of Law & Order http://allthingslawandorder.blogspot.com/2009/05/law-order-all-new-episode-recap-review.html I've wondered about bone being put in cooked pet food especially. A fireman had internal bleeding because he was forced to eat dog food. They blamed it on dog food having bone in it that humans were never supposed to eat. Well since we're obviously not supposed to eat it at all, then why would our pets get it cooked in food when we're warned EVERYWHERE about the dangers of cooked bones? Why wouldn't certain animals be unable to handle it just like humans aren't designed to handle it & why would vets continue to "prescribe" certain foods for those pets when it would be dangerous for them?
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 11:54:31 AM »
Well, but I am talking about the bone in the raw foods. I don't feed any cooked foods that list bone on the ingredients.  Cooked foods add supplements to make up the needed vitamins and minerals that would be provided by the raw bone in a raw diet. But I have one cat with a very sensitive digestion who has trouble with raw foods that contain bone.

Offline Growlies

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 03:38:22 PM »
Rad Cat uses "human grade" bone meal rather than bone.

"Human Grade" is one of those terms that are actually meaningless commonly, except for Honest Kitchen which went to court to be allowed to use the term. The one that actually matters is "fit for human consumption". Food that starts with that label before being made into pet food, which is commonly not fit for human consumption due to the increased bone content, is what we look for in pet foods we sell.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 03:53:06 PM »
"Human Grade" is one of those terms that are actually meaningless commonly, except for Honest Kitchen which went to court to be allowed to use the term. The one that actually matters is "fit for human consumption". Food that starts with that label before being made into pet food, which is commonly not fit for human consumption due to the increased bone content, is what we look for in pet foods we sell.

I'm questioning it now in the easily found raw, already prepared like Nature's Variety b/c MC now has me wondering how much it was ground before putting it in the food. If MC has problems with a cat (for whatever reason), I'm wondering if my dogs could develop the same problems if I'm not careful? Maybe we won't try already prepared on the next trip even with the chicken kind (chicken their favorite & I use chicken necks for the bone since I can grind it easily & finish pureeing in food processor). I don't want them to get sick on me while gone from home where I'd have to find a McVet for help.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 04:06:27 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The next venture
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 09:08:26 PM »
"Human Grade" is one of those terms that are actually meaningless commonly, except for Honest Kitchen which went to court to be allowed to use the term. The one that actually matters is "fit for human consumption". Food that starts with that label before being made into pet food, which is commonly not fit for human consumption due to the increased bone content, is what we look for in pet foods we sell.

I put "human grade bone meal" in quotes to show my distrust of such phrases.  But my cats have to eat something, and I am desperate to get Struvite Kitty on at least one other food. Rad Cat is not any more perfect than any other commercial food, I know that.  It contains kelp and psyllium, to list two undesirables, but it does not contain bone, and that is what I am looking for, a raw "complete" food that does not contain bone, or fruits and vegetables, to feed as one of SK's daily meals.

As for Nature's Variety, don't get me started. Now they have a KIBBLE that is mixed with RAW.  Didn't anyone ever tell them that kibble and raw should never be fed together?  Pet Food Manufacturers will stoop to any lowness, to make a buck at the expense of our pets.

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