Author Topic: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding  (Read 11790 times)

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Offline Growlies

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 04:28:37 PM »
Continued from previous post ....


Dogs and cats may suffer salmonellosis as a "reverse zoonosis," with infection transmitted from human-to-dog and subsequently back to other humans. Similarly, outbreaks of Salmonella infections in large animal teaching hospitals have been linked to the introduction of bacteria from infected human personnel, with subsequent spread to animals and then back to other human workers.

In one of the studies quoted on your website as part of your proof, in the first article only ten dogs were used to test for salmonella. The authors themselves state:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/ Although these results are suggestive, they are not statistically significant owing to the small number of dogs studied. Larger numbers of dogs or multiple stool samples from each dog might have allowed the results to reach statistical significance. Unfortunately, the limited funding to this private clinic for this study did not allow for the inclusion of more study animals or multiple cultures from individual subjects.

And, in another study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716752/

Since this study was an experimental trial with laboratory beagles, results may not be completely indicative of what would be experienced with owned dogs of various breeds. Determining that the raw food diet was the main source of salmonellae shedding in owned dogs would be more complicated, as they could be exposed to several other possible sources of salmonellae, including other animals; other food items, including treats; the environment; and their owners.

http://www.asph.org/vetmed/ppt/lefebvre.ppt
http://www.asph.org/vetmed/ppt/lefebvre.ppt

And information from your friends in Canada again. This is slide show that has been prepared to show the dangers of raw fed foods for therapy dogs. It was a great job of skewing the results. They show the high incidence of bacteria found in 40 raw fed dogs stools, but somehow tend to downplay the amounts found in dogs fed a dry diet. This study shows:

Raw fed dogs (40) Dry food fed dogs (156)

0 - for Vanomycin resistant enterococci 1 - for Vanomycin resistant enterococci

1 for Methicillin resistant S Aureus 8 - for Methicillin resistant S Aureus

5 for Clostridium difficile 40 - for Clostridium difficile

19 for Salmonella 12 - for salmonella

31 for E Coli 32 - for E Coli


While this study may show more Salmonella and E Coli in raw fed dogs, it shows higher results for the bacteria Clostridium, Methicillin resistant S Aureus and has Vanomycin resistant enterococci. And the amount of Salmonella and E Coli, while not as high as raw fed dogs, is significant.


My conclusion is that, in your hurry to label the raw diet as the culprit, and eliminate its use from your volunteers in your program, you are only putting the spotlight on the issue that all dogs can carry pathogens regardless of diet . This could cause all dogs to be banned from use in any health facility. In essence, I see your new rule as 'shooting yourself in the foot'. I feel in your confidence and your bias of proving a raw diet could spread pathogens, you forgot to do a full research on the issue. Salmonella is everywhere, including dry dog food, the soil, pond water and even from humans. Understand you are looking at narrow parameters that need a more careful and extensive study on how pathogens are spread and how to use sensible and effective prevention.

I don't see a problem with allowing dogs into nursing homes, hospitals or hospices, as long as good hygiene is applied. That would include bathing the dogs, insuring therapy dogs are flea and tick free, making sure the dog's are properly exercised (ie pottied) before a visit, and carrying sterilization equipment (bleach, bags and paper towels) in case of an accident. All research points out pathogens are spread by stool or saliva. That would mean not allowing the dogs to lick the clients, making sure the coats and skin are recently bathed and trusting your volunteers. Your volunteers are the backbone of your organization, and they do this loving volunteer work without compensation and give the Delta group thousands of volunteer hours. I hope you take this email in the light it was written, in that sometimes, we need to look at any situation with more study and thought, and understand the healing, joy and encouragement dogs give so many people. Being a patient with serious illness and being away from home often stifles recovery. Pets, as you know, bring hope, happiness and support to begin the process of healing.

I hope you rethink your position on this matter, and continue to allow your therapy dog work to bring joy to both your clients and your volunteers. My interest in researching this and writing to you is in memory to my Ch Blackwood Dante V Lyvngwerth CD and Ch Bourbon's Bravo of Blackwood, two Rottweilers I owned who were the recipients of the American Rottweiler Club TRUE award, for their many hours of therapy work. And yes, they both were fed a raw diet. They both worked in the intensive care units of hospitals in Tyler, Texas, for many years.

Lew Olson PhD Natural Health

http://www.b-naturals.com/

Author of, "Raw and Natural Diets for Dogs"

Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2012, 12:27:23 PM »
This was my post:

Is the AVMA prepared to offer alternatives for those who feed crickets, mice and rats (in other words, raw), to their reptiles?  Or did it not occur to you that this would impact other pet owners besides those with dogs and cats, which is where the “real” money is made?  Maybe snakes should eat “cooked” mice instead?  That should give you an idea of how ludicrous this is.

I don’t have reptiles (I know people who do), but I do feed dead feeder mice to my cat as a treat (my hands never actually touch the mice, but get washed anyway).   If he was a barn cat, he’d be eating them on a regular basis along with other small prey.  Or, following your logic and so-called “science,” should farmers not have cats on their farms to control the rodent population, because the cats are eating “raw” and someone may pet or get licked by the cat?  Then we can have lots of rodents getting into the food supply, contaminating it (which could potentially make people sick), and a population explosion of rodents which WOULD be a significant public health issue, unlike feeding raw.  Again, that should tell you just how ridiculous this policy is.  I’ve already lost a lot of faith and trust in the veterinary industry.  If this vote passes, you can consider it gone completely.  Many others have posted here about how this makes the AVMA look like it’s in the pet food industry’s pocket.  Perception is reality.  The AVMA would do well to remember that when they vote on this.

On another note, I have seen several comments about the veterinarian’s oath to “do no harm.”  In reality, nowhere in their oath does it say anything about “doing no harm.”  This is their oath:
http://www.avma.org/about_avma/whoweare/oath.asp
   
Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health and welfare, the prevention and relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health and the advancement of medical knowledge.
I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.
I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

 
If they truly care about the “prevention and relief of animal suffering,” they will educate themselves on proper and balanced raw feeding and it’s incredible health benefits.

Oh, and Dr. Jody:  comments like “duh” only serve to alienate.  That type of attitude is unprofessional, inappropriate and just plain insulting.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 12:36:42 PM »
Great post Pookie thumbsup1 and Growlies too thanks for that, very interesting!!
"Education is the key" to make informed decisions about the health of our pets

Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 03:21:38 PM »
Yes, thanks Growlies!

FYI, there is a petition against this policy:

http://www.change.org/petitions/american-veterinary-medical-association-avma-protect-pet-owners-rights-to-feed-a-raw-meat-pet-food

I wonder if Drs. Pierson and Hodgkins are aware of the AVMA's vote.  I can only imagine their reaction to it.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2012, 11:28:33 AM »
Oops, didn't realize someone had already posted the petition.   :-[  The comments on that site are so interesting.  I keep checking and there are some very smart people posting there.

I emailed Drs. Pierson and Hofve, but don't have Dr. Hodgkins' email so I asked Dr. Pierson if she would forward it (if she has Dr. Hodgkins' email).  I also emailed the following to 60 Minutes.  Yeah, I know, the media can be selective on what they report, but I had to try:

Story Suggestion:  Conflicts of Interest in the Pet Food Industry/AVMA

To the Producers and Reporters of 60 Minutes,
 
Please consider doing a story on the Pet Food Industry, the AVMA and vet schools and their relationship with each other, specifically how the PFI sends a lot of grant money and donates a lot of goodies (e.g. food to the students, marketing materials, calculators and other things students may need) to the vet schools. They also send reps to teach vet students about nutrition.
 
You may also find it interesting that the AVMA will be voting on a policy in early August that recommends against raw feeding, due to it being a “public safety” issue, yet many pet owners, frustrated with the lack of help from their vets, have dramatically improved and even “cured” the health issues in their pets by feeding raw. Who would gain from this policy if approved? The PFI, because they would lobby legislators to have commercial raw banned (like raw milk is illegal to buy or sell in many states). Please see this link for more information, and esp. read the comments posted there. It’s enlightening:
 
http://atwork.avma.org/2012/07/18/the-facts-on-avmas-proposed-policy-on-raw-pet-food-diets/
 
Also worth reading as part of your research:
 
http://www.leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html (a very well researched paper about the pet food industry and the oversight, or lack of, the industry)
 
“Your Cat: Simple Secrets to a Stronger, Longer Life” by Elizabeth M. Hodgkins, DVM, Esq.
 
www.catinfo.org (a website by Dr. Lisa Pierson)
 
The media, including 60 Minutes, has done stories on conflicts of interest and problems in the pharmaceutical industry, even though that industry regularly run ads on their networks. I sincerely hope that 60 Minutes will bring it’s considerable investigative and reporting skills to enlighten the public on just how incestuous the relationships are between those who profess to care about our pets. It’s unacceptable that so many pets are suffering from diabetes, obesity, UTIs, allergies, IBD and other illnesses because their owners (and veterinarians) just don’t realize the impact of an improper diet. A diet that’s perpetuated by uneducated veterinarians, the AVMA and the pet food industry.
 
Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
 
Sincerely,


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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2012, 09:31:15 AM »
Great post Pookie thumbsup1 and Growlies too thanks for that, very interesting!!

Indeed!!!!   Ditto!!!!   DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy

Please let's keep hammering on that site?   It's almost 800 posts now (counting my multiples  :-[  ).   Venting on there with a vengence and trying to keep it short.     flamingangry flamingangry  Answered a "vet' today -- you won't BELIEVE the ignorant statement  :-X :-X  It's a recent one, near the top ...


Raw feeders are already aware and with just the Raw feeders, it's almost to 800   -- imagine if more people got wind of these issues and the points made by all the people?   What of all those innocent pets (the general population/mainstream) whose owners have absolutely NO idea about ANY of this?

(Was my family once.)  :-[
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 09:34:08 AM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2012, 10:16:47 AM »
Are you by chance referring to the RIDICULOUS comment by a vet about how we handle the fact that our pets eat better than most of the world, and the moral/ethical issue of other animals dying to feed our pets?  Yeah, LOVED that one.  Just posted a reply to her.  I'm on there as "Happy Kitty's Mom."

Here was the vet's post (that part that had my jaw dropping):

...for those who advocate raw feeding. #2 How do we handle the moral/ethical questions of a)feeding our pets better nutrition than 2/3 of the world’s population can afford to feed themselves, and b)the killing of chickens, pigs, and cows on factory farms in order to provide our pets with more meat?”

Un-freakin' believable.   >:(

P.S.  I emailed Dr. Hovfe (who responded), Dr. Pierson and Dr. Becker.  Dr. Becker now has something about this on her site (not saying it's because of me, just saying she has something now).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:24:14 AM by Pookie »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2012, 10:41:59 AM »
This was my post:

Dr. Beismer:

No, I’m not concerned about those “studies.” I understand that my cat’s digestive system has been designed by Mother Nature to handle bacteria with no harm to him, and I understand how to handle raw meat safely in order to protect myself. I don’t need the AVMA to tell me.

I fail to see how the rest of the world’s access to food has anything to do with the AVMA’s proposed policy, but to answer your questions: I’m sorry if other parts of the world don’t eat as well as my cat. But he shouldn’t have to live in poor health, as he did for years vomiting and regurgitating SEVERAL TIMES A DAY AND NIGHT, EVERY DAY AND NIGHT, due to a poor diet just so I can have a clean conscience.

As to the killing of other animals to provide our pets with meat: I don’t see that as a moral/ethical issue, because my cat is a CARNIVORE. He MUST have meat in order to survive and be healthy. Or should he and other dogs and cats eat species-inappropriate food, and suffer the health issues that result, in order to spare other animals? I’m sorry, but Mother Nature is a lot smarter than we are. She’s had millions of years to work this all out and there is a balance. There is a reason why there are carnivores – it is to keep the balance. Just because we now raise animals (cows, chickens, etc.) for food doesn’t mean that we can mess with how our meat-eaters have evolved and change their diet to suit our moral/ethical standards. We don’t have the right. When you mess with Mother Nature, She bites back and She bites hard. We are seeing it in the poor health of our companion carnivores that are fed species-inappropriate diets and overly vaccinated.

Oh, and by the way? Even if he eats kibble, he’s still eating those cows and chickens – only he’s eating the parts that aren’t good or safe enough for people to eat (diseased, dying, etc.). So those other animals are dead anyway.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2012, 11:34:59 AM »
Great post Pookie!!!  thumbsup1
"Education is the key" to make informed decisions about the health of our pets

Offline Middle Child

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2012, 11:56:23 AM »

<snip>

P.S.  I emailed Dr. Hovfe (who responded), Dr. Pierson and Dr. Becker.  Dr. Becker now has something about this on her site (not saying it's because of me, just saying she has something now).

I just got the Dr Becker e mail.  My thought was "Well it's about time" LOL.  Glad to know you had something to do with that, well done!

And I see Dr Hofve has more than raised enough money to be able to attend the meetings. Yay!

Offline Middle Child

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2012, 12:00:22 PM »
I don't see any posts newer than 7 days ago on the petition site. Wait..how do you get to the new posts? 

Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2012, 12:30:55 PM »
Thanks, Shadow!  I'm rather pround of that one myself.   ;D

Hi MC:  Refresh the page -- that'll bring up the new posts, which will be at the top.  On my computer it takes a minute or 2.  And since Dr. Becker's message came out, I swear the number of new posts has just exploded.  There's over 750 now.  YES!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 12:32:36 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2012, 02:03:09 PM »
Sorry to keep harping on this topic (kind of like a train wreck -- I just have to keep looking at it  :D), but I just had to share this.  To those of you with high blood pressure, WARNING -- this may cause it to skyrocket:

GSD luver July 25th, 2012 at 14:41
Dr. Ashley Young: “in reference to my commentary about our debt to income ratio. I bring this up and it is relevant only because our profession and my colleagues and I are being accused of recommending particular diets not for the benefit of the patient but for profit. If that were truly the case, and it was so profitable to sell pet food and other items as a veterinarian, our debt to income ratio would not be so high.”

Well as a graduate of the Veterinary Nutrition Advocate course, a propaganda online “education” put on by Hill’s Pet that is intended for all you practicing vets and experience vet tech’s for your CE Credits, that statement above is just not true; perhaps for the good doctor who posted maybe she isn’t making money, but certainly not all can say that….in fact, the course spends an entire level of 10 modules educating vet staff on how to increase marketing and profits with guess what: HILLS PET FOOD which is quote “is Hill’s pet food profitable for your practice, yes!” and proceeds to give you equations to work out how much you charge…and thus profit! BTW it is a 33-45% mark up on food and up to 100% and more on products! In fact, it continues to explain how the “ideal” client buys all the food, products and elective services you spew at them….I always suspected this was case, now in my “educated” mind I saw it in shocking letters right in front of me….if it isn’t so profitable….get rid of it then….but we will never see that…..

Me again:  Here's part of Dr. Young's reply:

I am unaware of that being an approved course for continuing education. I attend annual meetings in my state given by DVM/PhDs (much like the individuals who are elected to the Councils at AVMA with multiple graduate level degrees) that are much more experienced and educated than I am, and must submit evidence of that attendance to keep my license to practice.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 02:25:00 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Lola

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2012, 04:25:35 PM »
Train wreck indeed...
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: AVMA to take a stand against raw feeding
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2012, 11:50:57 AM »
This gentleman, Mike Fry, is on the vet site requesting an interview for his radio show, and is, of course,  getting the run-around.

He's been sent an email with info;  Drs. Pierson, Fox, Hodgkins ... the Khuly articles; Not Fit For a Dog; Dr H's Testimony, Harvard paper...Hope others will reinforce, and add more -- perhaps even your own stories.

Anyone wanting to look into, and helping expose this cover-up needs alllll the reinforcing they can get to spare others what we've, and ours, have been through!!!


mikefry@animalarkshelter.org


http://www.animalwiseradio.com/

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