Author Topic: Need some good links for a friend  (Read 6565 times)

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Offline Pookie

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Need some good links for a friend
« on: March 19, 2013, 01:01:05 PM »
A co-worker/friend of mine told me yesterday that her family will be getting a puppy (Irish Setter).  Personally, I think they're nuts, because her family is very busy (though there were the usual claims from the kids that they'd take care of it), but of course my first thought was proper nutrition.  I seriously doubt they'd feed raw, for details I won't get into, but I would think the general rule that (grain-free) canned is better than dry applies to dogs as well as cats.  Correct?

Obviously I can't send her to catinfo.org, but (and I need to check some sigs in this forum, because I think some of you have links for dog resources in your signatures) can you guys post some links here that I can give her to help her and her family understand more about nutrition?  Or just general dog care?  I know Dr. Becker's site would be a good place to start.

Thanks in advance!   :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2013, 02:05:01 PM »
Yes, definitely start with: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/dr-karen-becker.aspx


Most people don't feed canned only b/c it usually has a lot less protein in it than kibble.

Since an IS is a larger breed, I'd go ahead and give them Great Dane lady's site: http://www.greatdanelady.com/ Make sure you stress to them that larger breeds can have joint issues if they're not given a proper feeding program for larger breeds. I really think this is the best site of all for you to point them to when talking about big breeds.

Though I don't agree with a lot of the kibble-diet she touts, she's changed SOME things recently that makes me think she's evolving with new research as time goes on. I can't agree with the grains in their diets, but she's giving grain-free options now, and these are the ones you need to be pointing out. Of course then, there's the fact that SOME of GDL's food choices seem to have been recalls lately.

Of course give them the FDA recalls link and tell them to keep an eye on it for the pet food recalls: http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/default.htm as well as truthaboutpetfood since I never know which is going to post it first: http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/category/pet-food-recalls

You might also want to give the vaccination scheduling of Dr Dodd: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

What many of us have been arguing for several years now has been proven. So, you want to bring up the fact that dogs neutered or spayed TOO early will develop some strange bone problems. ESPECIALLY LARGE BREEDS! Make them aware of these problems BEFORE they pick out a vet:
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

http://www.thedogplace.org/Spay-Neuter/considerations-canine-athelete_zink.asp

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-practice-news-columns/bond-beyond/is-early-neutering-hurting-pets.aspx

The fact that it can cause ligament rupturing in larger breeds ESPECIALLY is of great concern.

Their puppy shouldn't be allowed TOO much running, ESPECIALLY NEVER on hard surfaces for approximately 18 months. This can cause OCD http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2084&aid=464 But large breed dogs can keep on growing until 18-24 mths, so it's a primary concern that their joints develop as best as they can to prevent severe arthritic problems in older age. This is why Vlad went on the supplements of the Great Dane Lady's Blackwatch diet and hasn't been off of a leash since 5 mths of age. *knock on wood* No issues since then, and hopefully it will be fully repaired once he's old enough to be allowed to run. Dogs that end up having to have surgery on an OCD joint ALWAYS develop arthritis! We decided to never break the rules at all ever again once the vets said "We THINK we see a POSSIBLE flattening here in this shoulder joint."

I've got to take them on a walk, so I'll come back as I think of other things that are necessary with bigger breeds.

Make sure you point out that dogs that aren't fed grains are a LOT less likely to ever develop food allergies! Yes some dogs develop allergies to SOME meats, but if those dogs never get (especially) Corn, Wheat, Rice & Soy, then they're not anywhere near as likely to develop food allergies. Food allergies with a dog is one thing I never want to see anyone else ever have to experience again. I have my own personal suspicions that it's all about those items being such big GMO ingredients, but that's not proven at all. Not getting allergies by not given grains IS proven!



« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:18:13 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 03:19:35 PM »
Thanks, Dee!  This is what I had come up with so far (I hope I don't overwhelm her with info):

http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/03/11/pet-holistic-medicine.aspx

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/02/20/dog-flu-vaccine.aspx

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/15/raw-meat-the-best-and-healthiest-diet-for-pet-cats-and-dogs.aspx

http://www.leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html

Most people don't feed canned only b/c it usually has a lot less protein in it than kibble.

Wouldn't the protein in kibble be mostly plant-based?  I can't see how that would be better than canned, since the canned (if it's grain-free) would be mostly animal protein.  Maybe I'm over-thinking dogs as being similar to cats, but they're both carnivores and I would think that (generally) the same nutritional rules would apply (no grains, wet is better than dry).   :-\
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 03:55:29 PM »
Correction:  they are not getting an Irish Setter.  They're getting an English Springer Spaniel.  But the large breed info will be very helpful to others, I'm sure.   :-*
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 04:22:38 PM »
Protein isn't so much plant-based if you get away from the foods with grains. You still have to watch out for the protein percentage though. I wouldn't ever give a high-energy breed like an ESS something with less than 28% protein. I'd really want a lot more for that.

By today's standards though, ESS's are considered large dogs anyway. (Barkly is actually considered a medium dog at 30#.) But, just because it's not a giant breed doesn't mean that GDL's diet info is inappropriate and she has noted on her page that it's good for any dog now. I don't consider the Blackwatch Supplements necessary unless the dog develops issues like Vlad did.

The neutering and spaying info fits any breed that's gotta grow--and ESS's are in the sporting group--where a lot of the first studies on neutering-too-early were done. Some of their bones can end up too long and weak when done too early. I'm not saying neutering all dogs is wrong, because some people just won't keep up with their pets, but it's wrong for us since we never let our dogs out of our sight, or leash, when outside the house or fenced area. (If you think they'll be irresponsible with the dog, by all means don't give them the info. Just let them do what the vet tells them.) I hate that so many irresponsible people have caused this severe need that affects the dogs' health so much, but it is what it is.

You've got a good list there. I just hope they'll become responsible owners. If they're first time owners, you might want to look in your area for recommended (positive reinforcement ONLY) dog trainers and lead them to that. You might want to go to akc.org and look for S.T.A.R puppy classes to see if there's one of those trainers in the area.


« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 04:29:24 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Shadow

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 12:56:21 AM »
You are right Pookie Wet has more protein than dry kibble.
It may look like kibble has more protein, but when you break it down to a dry matter basis, wet has more protein. (Grain free, or not). Plus kibble the way its made has such less nutritional content.
You can tell them about Raw, just tell them how much more healthy their puppy will be. :)
Dogs/ Cats both carnivores, cats being obligate carnivores.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 07:56:36 AM »
People have to be careful w/canned dog foods too. A lot of those "premium" canned foods still have no more than 6 to 7% protein...which works out to be a lot less than the premium kibbles.

When buying canned, people are more apt to mix Fido's diet up to "keep them from getting bored." They find one with 9 to 10% protein, then don't read the other cans of the same company...formulas with less. So the dog's diet see-saws too much--especially for puppies.

If they want to feed wet to puppies, it's better to add some to the kibble--unless they're going to read every can they pick up--and people without a lot of time don't read everything very often.

I forgot to give you the recipe for "Puppy Crack" for the first few nights after the puppy comes home with you:

1/4 to 1/3 cup goat's milk depending on the side of the puppy (mix according to directions on can first)
2 to 3 tablespoons honey or molasses

Warm to baby-bottle temperature being sure to stir well.
Serve 30 minutes before humans' bedtime.
Take outside quickly one last time for the day. Then the puppy will sleep a lot better after the milk.

Something else that helps--a stuffed animal that's been rubbed all over the dam and litter-mates.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 08:12:57 AM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 08:43:05 AM »
People have to be careful w/canned dog foods too. A lot of those "premium" canned foods still have no more than 6 to 7% protein...which works out to be a lot less than the premium kibbles.




Not really.  To make protein comparisons, you have to reduce the food to a dry matter basis.

To do this you figure out the dry portion of the food and divide it by the percentage of the nutrient you are examining.

Example.

Say a canned dog food lists protein at 7% and moisture content is 73 %.  This means the dry matter is 27%

Divide .07 by .27 get .259, which equals (rounding up) 26 % protein on a dry matter basis.

I just made those numbers up.

Here are some real ones

Wellness canned chicken and sweet potato 8% protein, 78% moisture DMB protein = 36% (.08 divided by .22)

Wellness kibble (complete health super mix) 22% protein 11% moisture

Actual DMB protein:  24% (.22 divided by .89)

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 08:53:27 AM »
But puppies need more than 22 to 24% protein---they need at least 28%--especially if smaller and they're only going to be able to feed it 2x a day--and a lot of those brands just don't cut it.

Most vets prefer that puppies be fed 3x a day until at least 6 mths of age. It helps keep their blood sugar stable. If that can't be done, then higher protein will help with stability.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 08:56:16 AM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 08:59:43 AM »
But puppies need more than 22 to 24% protein---they need at least 28%--especially if smaller and they're only going to be able to feed it 2x a day--and a lot of those brands just don't cut it.

Most vets prefer that puppies be fed 3x a day until at least 6 mths of age. It helps keep their blood sugar stable. If that can't be done, then higher protein will help with stability.

Yes.  I'm not debating the fact that puppies need more protein than adult dogs.  What I'm saying is, to make comparisons between dry and wet you have to bring them both to a dry matter basis. I edited my post up above to include an acutal brand, in case you didn't see it.

Using Wellness brand adult foods (because that was the brand that jumped into my head) on a dry matter basis the canned food is 36% protein and the dry is only 26 %.

I don't think moisture is QUITE the issue in dogs as it is in cats, dogs will drink more on a dry diet.  However,  canned foods are generally higher in protein.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 09:08:45 AM »
No it's not--puppies will drink and drink though you usually have to lead them to the water bowl several times a day until they get it in their head where the bowl is.

I really just don't like seeing people get puppies unless someone is going to be able to get home at lunchtime every day. The only time you lower protein levels is with breeds that will be larger than 60 to 70 pounds to TRY to help prevent growth spurts that cause joint issues...and then Vlad's vet had me feeding him 4x a day for the first 6 mths to keep his blood sugar stable, since I was home and able to do it.

A lot of premium puppy kibbles now have 36 to 40% (and higher) protein, and it helps combat the blood sugar see-sawing that happens when they're really not fed often enough due to people's lifestyles.

Edit: They can always free-feed a puppy that they can't get home to feed, but then it can't be wet food sitting out all day to ruin & make it sick. Then free-feeding always causes a host of problems too--like being less able to house-train them.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:12:56 AM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 09:41:01 AM »
My friend's in-laws live literally next door to them, and the father-in-law comes over during the day to get dinner started and help around the house, so he'll be there to help with the dog.  I'm chalking it up to that in a way the dog will be his, but just staying at their house.   :-\

A lot of premium puppy kibbles now have 36 to 40% (and higher) protein, and it helps combat the blood sugar see-sawing that happens when they're really not fed often enough due to people's lifestyles.

I would think that part of that blood-sugar problem is because of all the plant-based protein in the kibble.  We see this in cats -- kibble-fed cats are more likely to develop feline diabetes, and they go "off the juice" or significantly reduce their insulin dosages when they go on an all-wet, grain-free diet.  Since both dogs and cats are carnivores, I would think that a dog on an all-wet, grain-free diet wouldn't have the blood-sugar issues that a dog on kibble would.

I don't think moisture is QUITE the issue in dogs as it is in cats, dogs will drink more on a dry diet.  However,  canned foods are generally higher in protein.

And I think it's important to differentiate between animal protein and plant protein.  Wet food, esp. the grain-free brands, tend to be higher in animal protein.



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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 10:15:30 AM »
My friend's in-laws live literally next door to them, and the father-in-law comes over during the day to get dinner started and help around the house, so he'll be there to help with the dog.  I'm chalking it up to that in a way the dog will be his, but just staying at their house.   :-\

That's good then. Yes, if he's the one spending the most waking hours with the puppy while also being the one to do some of the feeding, that dog will end up being his. Despite always "belonging" to someone else in the family, the Corgis have always actually been mine (I'm the one they turn to for everything when they want something) since I'm the one that does all the mixing and measuring of the meat, veggies, and fruit.

I would think that part of that blood-sugar problem is because of all the plant-based protein in the kibble. 

Just another reason I'm always stressing grain-free (even if it's green peas, that's better for them than grains)--though developing food allergies is always at the top of my list after living through heck when Dannyboy started developing food allergies.

I still don't like SOME components of it, but it's why I pick Nature's Variety for their kibble "snack" during the day. I guess technically they're still eating 3x a day, but I don't want to feed meat with it, despite having to keep them willing to eat it. The amount of it they get is very small. Vlad gets 1/2 cup with his fruit & Barkly gets a little less than a 1/4 scoop.

I'll NEVER like all of everything about ANY company I've found, but so far, I can agree with their Instinct variety of food better than others. I won't feed Raw Boost Instinct b/c it has a lot of meat in it, and I already feed them raw meat & veg 2x a day. I sure won't feed their Prairie variety b/c of the grain. I can live with their regular Instinct though--and their manufacturing plant, etc--better than I can with other companies. I won't get their rabbit formula either--I don't like their source of it.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 10:56:45 PM »
What I do...

The dogs are fed the same brands (pretty much) of grain free wet food that the cats are fed. 

There is sooooo much more info available for cat foods...or maybe it is just that I know more people that yap about cat food.  ??   I figure if I like a particular cat food brand, the dog version should be decent.

I also rotate brands with the dogs as well... like I do with the cats. 

If this is their first and only pet... the cost should be a bit less shocking.   ;D
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Need some good links for a friend
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2013, 02:52:02 PM »
I'm bumping this thread, and may bump it again in a few days, because my brother told me about a co-worker of his who's dog was having a lot of GI issues (vomiting, bloody diarrhea, etc.).  My brother told this person what my mother does (feeding kidney, gizzards, etc.) and that I give my cat the occasional mouse, and how these animals would be hunting and eating meat in the wild.  (I was ecstatic, because I didn't think my brother had been listening when I was learning this stuff a few years ago).  So I'm going to send my brother the link to PFK and this thread to pass on to the co-worker, in the hopes that it will help.

FYI, the dog was taken to the vet, who said the dog could only eat chicken and rice.   :(  My first thought was that balance was important, but I don't want to overwhelm this person.  I have a hunch he may be more open to home-cooked than raw, so if anyone has a link to a good website on balanced home-cooked diets for dogs, please feel free to share.

fingerscrossed
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