Author Topic: Questions for prey-model feeders  (Read 4591 times)

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Offline Amber

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Questions for prey-model feeders
« on: January 25, 2012, 04:11:55 AM »
I intended to send this email to the author of rawfed.com, but I immediately received a failed deliver notification. Therefore, I decided to post these questions to my friends here, which, now that I think about it, is what I should have done in the first place. Here is the email:

Quote
Hello there.

First of all, I love your site, and I love the logical no-nonsense way you present facts and refute fear-mongering tactics. I do, however, have a few questions.

First of all, I would like to note that I am a *cat* owner, not a dog owner, and that my cat is *mostly* rawfed. She has issues with her immune system, however, so I cook the outside of the meats, leaving them 75-50% raw. This necessitates my feeding boneless meat and grinding it with supplements. I did feed a properly balanced prey model diet for a while before Amber's issues were discovered, and should I decide to go back to that, I would like to know if there is any way you know of to sterilize the outside of RMBs without risking cooking the bones.

Also, on the issue of bones, I have some concerns that perhaps you could answer since you are so knowledgeable on the subject of raw feeding. I know that cats eat whole prey items, including bones, in the wild and that it is perfectly natural for them. However, cats' natural prey items are very small: rats, voles, shrews, the occasional rabbit, small birds and the like. The bones that are available to most people to feed, even the "small" ones like chicken bones, are much, much larger than the bones found in such animals. I know that this isn't an issue for canines, since they frequently take larger prey in the wild, but this discrepancy between the bone size of the natural prey items of cats and the bone size of commonly available prey for domestic cats worries me.  I admit, I did not start thinking about it until I had to swap to a ground diet in order to start cooking the outside of my cats food, but now that the question has presented itself in my mind, I am slightly uncomfortable with feeding her whole bones again, even if I can find a way to make RMBs safe for her delicate system. How do I reconcile the need to feed her proper RMBs for her dental health (which is now lacking, I am sorry to say) and mental stimulation with the knowledge that the bones I would be feeding are much larger than those she would naturally eat, and therefore potentially unsafe?

Also, since the ingredients of a proper (meaning no veggie/grains/filler) ground diet are usually exactly the same as a proper prey-model diet, why is it that ground diets require things like supplemental b and e vitamins, whereas prey-model diets do not? I understand the need to add calcium in a boneless ground diet, naturally, but if the 80-10-10 ratio is followed, and the components are the same, why would vitamins need to be added to one and not the other? According to my logic, which I admit may be flawed, either both feeding methods should require supplementation or neither should. What are your thoughts on this?

Regards,
S****** and Amber

Offline Pookie

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 10:43:53 AM »
I'm no expert, and only give Pookie the occasional mouse, but I'll take a stab at it based on things I've read.  You may want to ask the folks on Catster's Raw Forum (Shade, BK) -- they really know their stuff and could probably answer your questions, or at least point you in the right direction.

1.  A way to sterilize the outside of the RMB without cooking the bone:  Boil the bones for a minute or so (not sure of the timing).  The hot water should kill off the surface bacteria.  Hopefully another raw feeder has better info on the timing.

2.  It's my understanding that if you're feeding a larger bone, like a rabbit leg, they'll gnaw on it but not actually eat it.  Apparently they won't eat a bone that's too big for them.

I would think, though, that the small prey like mice, rats, etc. would be enough for dental health.  It works for cats in the wild . . .

3.  Supplementation:  the grinding process destroys/breaks down certain vitamins and minerals.  I know taurine is one, not sure about the others.  With whole prey, you're keeping everything intact.  Literally.

I hope this helps!
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Offline Lola

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 10:58:40 AM »
Not sure who Shade is, but BK is AWESOME...for sure!
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Offline BK

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 12:22:52 PM »
Aww, thanks for the kind words Lola!

Hey Amber - we've followed you over here!  Here are my thoughts on some of your questions.

With regard to the immune system, all I can say is that BK's immune system is suppressed because of his allergy meds and he has no problem at all with raw.  I do understand your worry though, and if you want to be sure I think you could just *dip* the chunk of meat into boiling water.  I wouldn't leave them for as long as a minute - I think that's way too long and would cook the bone.  But really, all you want to do is kill the surface bacteria (that's where any bacteria would be) and a dip should do it.

I don't think the bones we feed are really much larger than what a cat could eat in the wild.  Yes, they're bigger than mice but cats eat birds and rabbits - both of which a lot of raw feeders feed.  Obviously we're not giving things like beef bones, but they can eat chicken bones without any problem.  They'll leave behind anything too big for them.  And honestly, in all my years on the Catster raw forum I've never seen anyone have trouble with bones.  (Not counting the ones that just don't WANT them!)  You do have to start with really small ones - wing tips, Cornish hens, quail, etc. but once they build up their jaw strength they're fine.

The other poster has the supplement question exactly right.  Because we can't know for sure what's lost in the grinding and freezing process some of us supplement the ground.  Better to be safe than sorry!  And since the only vitamin not flushed out of their system is vitamin A, it's safe to supplement all the others.

Hope this helps!

Offline Mo

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 12:41:30 PM »
For the bone portion of my cats diet, I feed mostly chicken, and duck maybe 3 times a year.  Mine will eat nearly the whole thing and then pick clean the biggest bones.  They know their limits, or at least most cats do. 

AC wrote an article about raw feeding and health compromised cats: http://catcentric.org/2011/10/05/raw-feeding-and-health-compromised-cats/

Offline Amber

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 01:41:10 PM »
Thanks guys. Mo, I am reading that link right now. BK, it is awesome to se you over here  :)

Honestly, I if I jump back into prey-model, it will probably be half of her diet so that I can continue to give her supplements in her ground. Logically, I know it is unnecessary, but its a peace of mind thing.

Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 02:46:27 PM »
Everyone has given some great feedback for ya, but just wanted to add another little thought.

Besides the grinding process destroying some of the more delicate nutrients, bones are not just for calcium.

As I recall , bones are intrinsically balanced with calcium, magnesium and phosphorus.  All three elements work with each other in a special balance to promote healthy bones, skin, teeth, and nervous system.  Plus, there are additional nutrients in the bone marrow.

So, if you're not including bones in your ground preparation, it is very important to supplement for all of those nutrients and minerals. 

.
meow meow meow meow meow meow? -woof!
Translation: "I can has my raw food? -please!"

Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 09:34:56 PM »
Hi, Amber!

I'm late to this party, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

Unless your kitty's health is seriously compromised, she'll do just as well on raw foods as other kitties. If it really bothers you, however, scalding the outside of the meats you feed (a few seconds in boiling water, as previously mentioned, should do the trick), and feeding only the bone-in meals without scalding (that way, you don't take the chance of cooking the bones) is certainly better than not offering raw at all.

A couple of points on the bone-in meals: I don't feed bones without meat attached as there's little incentive for the cat to eat it and the meat helps the bones slide down more easily. Nor do I offer my cats any bones thicker than the first two pieces of a chicken wing, or chicken and rabbit ribs, as it doesn't make sense to me to ask them to eat bones so much larger than they're built to handle. Sure, some can do it, but I just don't see the need to make 'em. In fact, I don't even feed chicken necks unless they're really small. And as FurMonster Mom mentions - bones are important for several reasons, so it's important to take all of them into consideration when looking for replacement.

As for supplements, whole prey and 80/10/5/5 frankenprey diets are close enough to their natural diets that supplements are not needed. Both grinding and freezing are known to destroy some of the more delicate nutrients ('though we don't know all those affected, nor to what extent), so supplementing is only wise.

Best regards!

AC

BK - I would like to talk to you personally, would you be amendable to chatting on FB? If so, can you please pm me your FB url? Thank you very much!!
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Offline Amber

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 01:58:41 AM »
So... Hissyfluff's teeth were absolutely terrible when I took her to the bet. So bad, in fact, that he did a cleaning right then. That means that I have got to do more for her dental health. She already gets about two gizzards a day, one after each meal, but that isn't enough (I use 1lb gizzards to 5lbs chicken/turkey thigh/breast and it is factored into the muscle meat part of her recipe). Do you guys think I should add more gizzards to her food? I am tentatively willing to start giving her RMBs again, perhaps with her ground food as breakfast. How do I need to calculate that, though?  The alnutrin supplement balances out her food... would I need to calculate her RMB with additional organs, or can I just toss a chicken wing or half a neck down for her evening meal three times a week?

Is there anyone here who does partial prey-model with ground raw? How do  you do it?

Offline BK

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 06:35:40 AM »
Amber, do you cut the gizzards up?  How about giving a whole gizzard that really has to be gnawed on?  Otherwise you will have to throw down an RMB occasionally.  I don't think you'd need to do it 3x a week because that would upset your balance with Alnutrin and I'm not sure how you'd adjust that - it's hard enough figuring out bone ratios (for me anyway!) and to have to figure that in combination with Alnutrin might be difficult.  Also, too much bone and she'll get constipated.  But I think a neck or wing once a week might be fine. 

What do the rest of you think?

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 08:04:31 AM »
What is RMB?

Offline Amber

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 08:35:23 AM »
RMB is short for Raw Meaty Bone. No, I don't cut the gizzards up; she gets them whole, so she  really has to gnaw on them. She doesn't have any trouble with large chunks, and I am lazy tend to hurt myself with pointy objects and don't want to handle them more than needed, so I never thought about cutting them.

Offline BK

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 06:33:19 AM »
OK, that made me giggle.  Careful with that knife!  (And take it easy!)  I think I would give a wing or a neck once a week and see how it goes.

Offline Amber

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 07:34:47 AM »
Okay, will do. Thanks :)

Offline Lola

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Re: Questions for prey-model feeders
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 07:51:54 AM »
Amber,
Do you just buy a package of chicken (?) gizzards at your local grocery store...and feed those?
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