Author Topic: Bone Broth for dental health  (Read 3570 times)

Offline Pookie

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Bone Broth for dental health
« on: October 19, 2014, 11:30:30 AM »
I'm not sure whether to post this here or in supplements, but this is for bone/teeth health so I put it here.   :)

I'm reading about how nutrition impacts dental health.  In a nutshell, it occurred to me that it's very likely the reason Pookie's teeth were in such bad condition is because he's not getting the minerals/vitamins in his food, so his body is pulling the minerals from his bones and teeth (the vet said his jaw bone was soft) instead.  So I'm planning to add bone broth to his diet so he gets the minerals from the bones, since I've never worked up the nerve to feed raw bones.  He may not get the cleaning action of knawing on the bones, but at least he can get the marrow, etc., and what I like about this is everything should be in the right ratio.  It seems like it's as close as I can get to giving him raw bones without him actually having the bone itself.

I also wanted to add raw goat's milk, for the nutrients and good fats which he'll need to absorb the minerals, though I'm thinking the broth might be sufficient (he would eat the bones in the wild, but it's less likely he'd have raw milk unless he was a barn cat).  I emailed the holistic vet to ask how much broth and milk I should give him, and she advised against the milk, due to concerns about bacteria.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that would be an issue, though I will wait until he's been off of the antibiotics for at least a week.

She didn't answer my question about how much broth to give, so I sent another email but haven't received a reply yet.  I suspect it'll be the same answer as with the milk:  just keep feeding the raw balanced diet.  But he's not on a balanced diet, because he doesn't get all raw.  IMO, if his diet was balanced, he wouldn't have lost his teeth.

I'm thinking of freezing the broth in ice cube trays, that way I can take 1 (or more) out and thaw it for each day.  I just wanted to get your opinions/thoughts on how much broth I should give him each day.  I won't know if it's helped or not until he goes back for a check-up, probably in 6 months or a year, and I'm concerned I may not give him enough, but I don't want to give him too much, either (if that's possible)  :-\.

Thanks, everyone!
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 12:00:38 PM »
I saw somewhere that it IS possible for humans to consume too much bone broth, but I've not seen that about pets, but because of the human "too much" comment, I'm going to assume that you definitely need to find out a definitive answer of how much before giving it to a pet.

I've also seen it said in more than one place including Dr. Becker from Mercola that you need to add some vinegar to help leech out the minerals from the bones.

This place says it's 2 tablespoons vinegar per each gallon of water:

Quote
http://www.traditional-foods.com/bone-broth/

Adding Vinegar
People add vinegar (to the tune of two tablespoons per gallon, give or take) to draw more of the mineral content out of the bone. If you do this, use a decent-tasting vinegar like apple cider vinegar. In our opinion, white vinegar ruins broth, but that is a personal matter. If you like white vinegar in your broth, by all means, add it. If you are making a spicy and flavorful soup, the type of vinegar probably does not matter anyway since it will be lost behind the spice.

Vinegar will help draw minerals out of your soup bones but we have made many batches without vinegar and just keep cooking the bones (as you will see below) until we are sick of them or they disintegrate. We get a whole lot of mineral content from our bone broth in the process.

That site was also referencing Pottenger's Cats in one paragraph.

I finally found it again where it says it's possible to get too much. It was in the comments:

Quote
http://nourishedkitchen.com/bone-broths-adrenals-bones-teeth/

WestOzGirl says
December 8, 2012 at 7:07 am

Just like most things, eat in moderation, including broth. I had a reaction during the middle of the night once. I was doing a ketogenic diet at the time and in one evening i consumed 3 big bowls of broth for dinner. That night I woke up with a racing heart and an acidic taste in my mouth. I put out a question on Paleo Hacks and got the below link to an interesting journal article. It seems you can have too much bone broth which may result in hypercalcaemia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279073/

I absolutely can't do the math on this, but it's the only guideline I can find:

Quote
http://www.rawtothebones.com/benefits-bone-broth-cats-dogs/

Feeding amounts:
Consider this to be a liquid bone, because it is! So the normal ration guideline. of 10% would be to much, since its easily absorbed. So, only use 5% to any meat & organ ratio.  If adding on top of a meal that already has bone, only use 2%.

Making treats that have bone stock as an ingredient is a creative way to preserve your stock, while offering great benefits in a pleasant treat. Try this one -  Bone Stock Grain Free Hard Pet Treat

So whatever percentage amount of bones raw-fed cats are supposed to get each day is what it's supposed to be?
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 01:01:05 PM »
Thanks, Dee!  I was thinking of 1 cube/day to start, but maybe I should do 1 cube every other day?  My goal is to at least slow down (preferably stop) the bone degeneration, and if possible, maybe even reverse it a bit.  Obviously the teeth won't grow back, but it would be nice to get his jaw (and any other bones that may have softened) stronger.

Math was never my strong suit, either.   :(  The ratio for raw feeding is 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ (some say 80% meat/10% bone/5% liver and 5% other secreting organs).  I would love to have guidance on this from a vet , but I don't think I'm going to find it.  They're probably thinking that the commercial food is "complete and balanced" and that his tooth loss is due to bacteria, not a lack of minerals. 

My other question is how many calories would be in a cube of broth, since I'm also going to have to cut back on how much he's eating.  But 1 thing at a time:  I just want to make sure I don't over-do it on the amount of broth from a mineral perspective.  Clearly, though, he's not getting enough minerals from what he's currently eating.   :(

The broth has been going yesterday and should be done in about an hour.  I used the Bragg's ACV to help leach the minerals out.   :)
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Offline Lola

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 01:18:05 PM »
Did Pookie ever eat kibble?  That would have had a LOT to do with his bad teeth and mouth situation.  Not only did the kibble stick to his teeth, but how nutritious is kibble really?  Toss in genetics (possibly) as well. 
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 01:38:06 PM »
Did Pookie ever eat kibble?  That would have had a LOT to do with his bad teeth and mouth situation.  Not only did the kibble stick to his teeth, but how nutritious is kibble really?  Toss in genetics (possibly) as well. 

He ate kibble until he was about 6 1/2.  What's odd is, his teeth were fine all those years (he was getting a yearly check-up) and he never needed a cleaning.  For the last 5 years or so, he's been grain-free only.

I'm not convinced it's genetics.  I really think there's not enough minerals in his current diet, and his body is reabsorbing the minerals in his teeth (and other bones, e.g. jaw) to maintain the amount of calcium and other minerals needed in his blood to keep everything functioning normally.  Think about it:  raw fed cats, that get bones, from what I've heard usually have healthy teeth and gums.  I've always assumed that was because of the teeth cleaning they got when they ate the bone.  BUT, while that may help, they're also getting the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and other minerals, in the right ratios, from the bone, which their own body can then use to maintain it's own bone structure.  I think the tooth decay and resorption is a form of osteoporosis, where the body isn't getting enough to replace what it loses.

I've never fed him raw bone.  RadCat uses bone meal, but I don't know how balanced it is.  The canned food probably isn't balanced (or sufficiently supplemented) with those minerals, either.  I hope to use the broth as a supplement, to give him the minerals he's not getting.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 02:19:14 PM »
If you wanted to get even smaller than regular ice cube sized, you could find some of these:

http://www.kitchenandcompany.com/Storage-And-Cleaning/Food-Storage/Refrigerator-And-Wet-Food-Storage/_/Cubette-Ice-Cube-Trays?tc=gfs13&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=Cubette%20Ice%20Cube%20Trays&gclid=CjwKEAjwwo2iBRCurdSQy9y8xWcSJABrrLiSqfSW2vP6mtNSapAqV7uNXH2uWtuOfPVyZgNN5CHpPxoCO-3w_wcB

I used to have some to be able to get them into the boys' bicycle water bottles.  It might be easier to make a definite size for daily use that way.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2014, 02:48:56 PM »
I finally found somewhere that gives amounts:

Quote
http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com/2013/10/homemade-chicken-or-meat-stock-recipe_20.html

At Mealtime Add the Broth to Your Dog’s or Cat’s Food...

Just pour the broth into the bowl with his/her food:
X-Small Dogs and Cats - 1 tbs;
Small Dogs and Cats – 1/8 cup;
Medium size dogs – ¼ cup;
Large dogs – 1/3 to ½ cup.

I also found this, so you might write her and ask about amounts to be used:

Quote
http://truthaboutpetfood.com/make-your-pet-a-healthy-broth/

Feed your pet the broth at non-meal times at least 30 minutes prior to a meal or 1 hour after (prior to a meal is better, aids in digestion of the meal).  It is not recommended to add the broth to a commercial pet food – home cooked or home prepared raw food is fine.
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Offline Lola

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 11:12:09 AM »
I do agree that most (if not all) commercial foods are probably a hit and a miss, as far as being TRULY balanced and complete.  However, my fear would be over doing it... if I added anything.  My HOPE is the raw chicken (or other protein), organs, and bones with the Alnutrin supplement will be their saving grace. 
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Offline Amber

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 04:01:21 PM »
I don't think anything is ever truly balanced as a *sole* diet long term.

That is an interesting take on the bone broth. Amber has tartar even with raw bones, but no serious issues thus-far, and she is 7 years old now. I'll have to scale back the HK grace to emergencies only and get her back on full raw, just in case.

And I can say that, regardless of whether or not it is "natural" for a cat, Amber positively glows when I can get raw goats milk. I haven't been able to get it consistently since we moved away from my source, but her fur, which is already soft, get softer and her eyes seem... I dunno... brighter. Clearer. Something.

Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2014, 12:31:28 PM »
And I can say that, regardless of whether or not it is "natural" for a cat, Amber positively glows when I can get raw goats milk. I haven't been able to get it consistently since we moved away from my source, but her fur, which is already soft, get softer and her eyes seem... I dunno... brighter. Clearer. Something.

How much milk did you give her, and how often?  Were you concerned about bacteria?  I would think, given how quickly they digest food that it wouldn't be an issue, but I find I keep doubting myself on things lately so I'm not sure.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 12:36:08 PM »
I finally found somewhere that gives amounts:

I also found this, so you might write her and ask about amounts to be used:

Thanks, Dee, when things calm down a bit I'll do that.  I did get a reply from the holistic vet's office, who stated that canned food with AAFCO on the label is "complete and balanced" if they comply with AAFCO guidelines.   ::)  (IMO, if the food was "complete and balanced" he wouldn't have been losing his teeth.)  They also didn't have any advice as to how much broth to give him, or how often.  *sigh*

I added 1/4 tsp of broth to his RadCat chicken last night, just to see if he'd even eat it.  I don't plan to feed it again for at least a few days, when hopefully I have more information.  When I first made the broth, I tried to give him straight and he wasn't interested.  He finally took 2 licks and then walked away.   ::)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:47:49 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Lola

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 09:18:31 PM »
I did get a reply from the holistic vet's office, who stated that canned food with AAFCO on the label is "complete and balanced" if they comply with AAFCO guidelines. 

Holistic vets aren't always any more informed about the "evils" of the PFI, than a non-holistic vet.  Unfortunately. 
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 05:12:49 AM »
Rad Cat doesn't use bonemeal anymore.  Not for a couple of years.  They use Organic Egg Shell powder.

Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 07:27:44 PM »
The last time I took our ol' princess, Belle in for her dental, I asked my vet about what causes FORLs.  She said there has not been a real determination on what causes it.  I asked specifically about genetics or calcium deficiencies, and she said nope, that all those things have been studied to death and not proven to be factors.  I said I thought that was pretty bizarre, which made her laugh in agreement. 

She explained that FORLs are essentially an immune trigger/reaction that rejects/absorbs the teeth.  It's the same trigger that happens when the body gets rid of baby teeth.  Only, for some unknown reason, it is triggered in some cats after they've grown in their adult teeth.  Once the reaction is triggered, it will not stop until all the teeth have been lost, which is why FORLs can go on for years.  I asked if the process would continue to the bones when the teeth were gone. She said no, the process is specific to the teeth, and once it's done with teeth, the immune system goes back to "normal".  So weird.

So, I'm not sure if adding the extra calcium into the diet is really going to change the long term outcome.  :-\   But it might slow down the process a bit, so kitty can keep their teeth just a little bit longer.   fingerscrossed
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Offline Lola

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 09:28:18 PM »
I JUST realized that FORL is the same thing as tooth resorption.  Lola had/has that issue... had several teeth removed.  Why wouldn't it be better to remove all the teeth at once...be done with it... instead of putting the cat through the trauma over and over.   
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