Author Topic: Bone Broth for dental health  (Read 3562 times)

Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2014, 03:54:13 AM »
Why wouldn't it be better to remove all the teeth at once...be done with it... instead of putting the cat through the trauma over and over.   

Some vets recommend exactly that, but many don't really explain that FORLs are a continuing long term issue.  Or, some folks just don't absorb the information, in the hopes that their pets can keep their teeth.  There's something primal and instinctive about the need to keep our teeth, and we feel that for our pets as well.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2014, 04:49:35 AM »
I JUST realized that FORL is the same thing as tooth resorption.  Lola had/has that issue... had several teeth removed.  Why wouldn't it be better to remove all the teeth at once...be done with it... instead of putting the cat through the trauma over and over.   

My vet absolutely refused to remove all Tolly's teeth, when I asked that very question.  If he had lived longer he would have eventually probably lost all his teeth as the FORL progressed.  But she would not extract healthy teeth.

I would imagine it would be a lot more painful and traumatizing to remove healthy teeth than to take out diseased teeth.

Offline Lola

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2014, 09:12:54 AM »
Some vets recommend exactly that, but many don't really explain that FORLs are a continuing long term issue.  Or, some folks just don't absorb the information, in the hopes that their pets can keep their teeth.  There's something primal and instinctive about the need to keep our teeth, and we feel that for our pets as well.

I miss a lot, but I know I didn't miss the vet explaining that it would continue for Lola.  That SUCKS... knowing she will always have issues. 
Just going by her personality change, after having dental surgery ...she was a much happier cat... would make me lean towards removing all her teeth. 
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Offline Lola

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2014, 09:21:11 AM »
My vet absolutely refused to remove all Tolly's teeth, when I asked that very question.  If he had lived longer he would have eventually probably lost all his teeth as the FORL progressed.  But she would not extract healthy teeth.

I would imagine it would be a lot more painful and traumatizing to remove healthy teeth than to take out diseased teeth.

I would guess my vet feels the same, or he would have mentioned removing them all.  Maybe.  With him ticked off at me right now, I would be afraid to ask.   Silly7
You may have a point, about extracting healthy teeth being more painful. 
Just thinking out loud... I know the diseased teeth were VERY painful... just observing the personality changes (for the better) that Lola and Lucy both showed, after healing from surgery.  And the surgery itself didn't sound like a walk in the park.  I guess I would have to "weigh" the pros and cons... before "pushing" the vet to remove all teeth. 
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2014, 09:03:43 AM »
The last time I took our ol' princess, Belle in for her dental, I asked my vet about what causes FORLs.  She said there has not been a real determination on what causes it.  I asked specifically about genetics or calcium deficiencies, and she said nope, that all those things have been studied to death and not proven to be factors.  I said I thought that was pretty bizarre, which made her laugh in agreement. 

She explained that FORLs are essentially an immune trigger/reaction that rejects/absorbs the teeth.  It's the same trigger that happens when the body gets rid of baby teeth.  Only, for some unknown reason, it is triggered in some cats after they've grown in their adult teeth.  Once the reaction is triggered, it will not stop until all the teeth have been lost, which is why FORLs can go on for years.  I asked if the process would continue to the bones when the teeth were gone. She said no, the process is specific to the teeth, and once it's done with teeth, the immune system goes back to "normal".  So weird.

So, I'm not sure if adding the extra calcium into the diet is really going to change the long term outcome.  :-\   But it might slow down the process a bit, so kitty can keep their teeth just a little bit longer.   fingerscrossed

I would think hormones, specifically growth hormones, trigger baby teeth to fall out, as part of the aging/growing process (pre-puberty).  And maybe I'm being obsessive about this, but nutrition has a large impact on hormones.   Silly7

Even if I'm way off base about the tooth resorption, that explanation (baby teeth) doesn't explain why his jaw is soft.  The vet specifically mentioned that to me, which is why I started thinking that this is a form of osteoporosis, in that his body isn't getting enough minerals and is pulling those minerals from his bones to make sure there's enough in the blood.  Humans have to have a certain level of calcium in their blood at all times to live, and I suspect that's true for all mammals.

I did contact Susan Thixton, who had written one of the articles that Dee posted a link to, and she replied back but didn't think you could give too much broth and didn't know how much she gives her pets because she mixes it in their food.  So I can't explain how that person developed hypercalcemia other than perhaps the broth he was drinking wasn't balanced or he was taking supplements in addition to the broth and it wasn't mentioned in the article.   :-\  But since I certainly don't want to make things worse, I'm going to err on the side of caution.

So here's my thinking, and if I'm way off, please correct me, because math was never my strong suit:  Raw feeders usually go by the rule of 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ (including liver).  So, if I use the 5.5 oz can (per day) as my 80% meat (I'll round down to 5 oz to make it easier, esp. since I'll need to cut back on his food anyway to help him lose some weight), then 10% bone would be .5 oz.  Solid weights are different from liquid weights, so I would need to convert that .5 oz from a solid to liquid (broth).  I found one place that stated that 2.1 tablespoons = 1 solid ounce.  I want to confirm that, but if it's true, then .5 oz bone (solid) would be just over 1 tablespoon of broth.

5 oz can = 80% meat
5 x 10% = .5 oz bone (solid)
.5 oz solid bone = 1 tablespoon "liquid bone" broth (conversion to be confirmed)

I realize it still doesn't make for a balanced diet, but I think it would be an improvement.  Does my math work (other than the conversion of solid to liquid) or am I totally messing it up?  I was trying to keep it simple but I may have oversimplified.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2014, 09:10:56 AM »

5 oz can = 80% meat
5 x 10% = .5 oz bone (solid)
.5 oz solid bone = 1 tablespoon "liquid bone" broth (conversion to be confirmed)

I realize it still doesn't make for a balanced diet, but I think it would be an improvement.  Does my math work (other than the conversion of solid to liquid) or am I totally messing it up?  I was trying to keep it simple but I may have oversimplified.

You know that my math sucks, and I have to have hubs do figures like those, but that sounds right from one of those articles that gave these measurements:

Just pour the broth into the bowl with his/her food:

X-Small Dogs and Cats - 1 tbs;
Small Dogs and Cats – 1/8 cup;
Medium size dogs – ¼ cup;
Large dogs – 1/3 to ½ cup.

If no one else answers it, I'll ask him whenever he's in the house again and not doing anything.

As it is, you'd still never use more than 2 tbs. since that's 1/8 cup.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 09:15:05 AM by DeeDee »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2014, 09:28:32 AM »
Thanks, Dee!  And I really like your suggestion of the mini ice cube trays.  What I think I'll do is put 1 tablespoon in each cube, and then add the cube to the baggie with his raw when I'm thawing his bedtime snack so they can thaw together.  Plus I'm thinking he'll absorb the minerals better with the raw than he would with the canned.

BTW, Susan Thixton's article linked to another article that was AWESOME.  When I have time, I want to post some pieces from it.  But to be brief, yes, bone broth can help with dental disease, along with a lot of other things.  Thank you SO MUCH for finding Susan's article, Dee!   :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2014, 09:54:32 AM »
I won't swear to it, and I can't find it for sure, but if we go by dog size that's quoted in that amount list, then extra small dogs are anything less than 15 pounds--it might be 12 pounds though.

Small dogs are then 15-25 pounds
Medium dogs like Barkly are 26-50 (I absolutely know this one is right)

I really don't want to think about a cat being larger than a medium dog though. That would be really scary and probably be like looking death in the face. Yeah. That wildcat that's been spotted on our hill by several neighbors.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 09:57:04 AM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2014, 10:11:08 AM »
I really don't want to think about a cat being larger than a medium dog though. That would be really scary and probably be like looking death in the face. Yeah. That wildcat that's been spotted on our hill by several neighbors.

Yeah, we have bobcats in this area, too.  I've never actually seen one, but there's been the occasional picture in the local paper, and I know someone who had one pass through her backyard.  The local wildlife is one of many reasons why Pookie is, and will always be, an indoor kitty.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2014, 09:08:44 PM »
Dee had posted a link to Susan Thixton's article about bone broth, and Susan's article had linked to this one:  http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2005/broth0205.htm.  It's a really great piece and I highly recommend it if you have time.  There is some medical terminology, but I don't think it'll be over anyone's head.

Anyway, I wanted to share some bits from it that I found particularly interesting.  Emphasis is mine:

Quote
Gotthoffer also found gelatin to be prescribed for both hyper- and hypo-stomach acidity. He cites three physicians who report gelatin to "work better and more rapidly than bismuth and tannin" in clinical practice.24 A more recent study by Wald, demonstrated that glycine (a main ingredient in gelatin) stimulates gastric acid secretion.25

Maybe bone broth, which includes gelatin, is a better option than the ACV?

Quote
Scurvy is a disease caused by a deficiency of vitamin C. It results in symptoms such as bleeding gums, bruising, and poor wound healing. These manifestations are actually due to a deficiency of collagen, because vitamin C is needed to synthesize collagen.
Quote
To summarize, collagen (broth) can be considered for use in the following conditions: poor wound healing, soft tissue injury (including surgery), cartilage and bone injury (including dental degeneration).

Quote
  Additional studies have reported positive results with glycine for health conditions. Fogarty states that glycine is "associated with a strongly reduced risk of asthma."41 Wald demonstrated that glycine stimulates gastric acid secretion.42

Hmm . . . again wondering if bone broth, which contains glycine, may be a better option than ACV . . .

Quote
Minerals are essential to life but they are not easy to digest. In the stomach, the presence of hydrochloric acid is necessary to physically break down our food, but also to extract elemental minerals from the food that we've eaten. A similar reaction takes place in the making of broth. An acid is necessary to remove the minerals from the bone. This is the purpose of using vinegar (acetic acid) when making broth.

Quote
Minerals have numerous functions in the body beyond the composition of bone, which is why the body will rob the bones and tissues to maintain steady levels of minerals in the blood and other fluids.

This is why I'm hoping that by adding the broth to Pookie's diet, it will help his dental issues.  I really think his body wasn't getting enough minerals and was robbing them from his teeth and possibly other bones like his jaw.  It continues:

Quote
Deficiencies of minerals can be acquired, similar to vitamin deficiencies. Generally there are two ways this can happen, lack of intake in the diet, or lack of absorption in the intestines. Broth can be an excellent remedy for both of these causes of mineral deficiency because it provides easily absorbed extracted minerals, plus promotes healing of the intestinal tract. 

Quote
Calcium is involved in immune function by helping to stabilize mast cells. It regulates cell reproduction and it also regulates the manufacture of proteins. As we can see, calcium is a vitally important mineral, so important, that it is maintained at a constant amount in the bloodstream at all times, to be readily available for the body's needs.

Quote
Calcium (broth) can be considered for use in the following deficiency signs, symptoms and conditions: pain and inflammation, cramps, muscle spasms, delusions, depression, insomnia, irritability, hyperactivity, anxiety, palpitations, hypertension, high cholesterol, allergies, brittle nails, periodontal and dental disease, pica, rickets, osteomalacia, osteoporosis and any situation that creates bone loss such as aging, immobilization, postmenopause, and caffeine, tobacco, and alcohol use.

Quote
Conclusion
Broth can be thought of as a protein supplement, and a calcium supplement.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, hoping that this will help, but this information really resonated with me and I just had to share it with you.  I've started adding a tablespoon of bone broth to Pookie's raw bedtime snack.  I probably won't have any clue if it's making any difference until his next check-up.  But it's worth a shot, and I hope this information helps others, too.  fingerscrossed
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Offline Amber

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2014, 01:24:49 PM »
She gets about 1/4 c per day when I have access to it. I am not in the least concerned about the bacteria - I drink the milk myself, it isn't all for her :) .

Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2014, 02:40:48 PM »
Thanks, Amber!  Do you by any chance know how many calories are in that?  If not, no worries, I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.  Pookie needs to slim down a bit, but I would love to give him some goat's milk now and then.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2014, 05:02:51 AM »
Listening.....

Offline Amber

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2014, 01:11:32 PM »
Its about 168 for a full cup so.... around 42 for 1/4 C? I think.

Offline Pookie

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Re: Bone Broth for dental health
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2014, 08:56:28 AM »
Thanks, Amber!!!!    HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt
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