Author Topic: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats  (Read 6947 times)

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Offline Lola

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Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« on: June 27, 2011, 09:40:43 AM »
Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
By jhofve77

Snip...

* The fish used in canned pet foods usually includes bones, and are high in phosphorus and magnesium, which can be an issue in cats with a history of urinary tract disorders or kidney disease. In practice I have seen quite a few cats develop urinary tract infections and blockages if they eat much fish–even boneless fish.

* Many cats are sensitive or even allergic to fish; it is one of the top 3 most common food allergens.

* Fish-based foods have high levels of histamine, a protein involved in allergic reactions.

* Fish tends to be “addictive” to cats. They love it, and will often stage a “hunger strike” by refusing their regular food in favor of fish. Tuna or other fish should be reserved as a rare and special treat. Feed fish no more than once a week, and even then in very small amounts only.

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/why-fish-is-dangerous-for-cats/
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 10:07:40 AM »
Yep. Agree with all of the above.  I feed no fishy foods in this house. :)

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 01:42:29 PM »
Here's more.  Anne lists 8 reasons and explains them http://www.catnutrition.org/faq.html



Strike Three: Urinary tract problems.

Fish, with its high magnesium content, can contribute to a type of urinary tract problem in cats.

...the discovery ...of magnesium as a culprit in feline urinary tract disorders was accompanied by the development of ...foods.
The idea ...was to add acid to the food, reasoning that magnesium crystals develop in alkaline, not acid urine. The problem is, cats whose urinary tract acid is too high are prone to another type of crystal--calcium oxylate...  As Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins points out in her book, the rise of urinary tract diseases in the cat coincided exactly with the increasing use of dry kibble ....


Since she will be cited often, some background on Dr. H:

Dr. Hodgkins has come to the same conclusion (that dry foods are detrimental to cats) by a much more prestigious route: she has been a vet for 30 years, more than 8 of them working inside Hill’s Pet Nutrition ... she was issued a patent for her revolutionary idea that cats are harmed by feeding highly-processed carbohydrate-containing foods: she assigned that patent to Purina so they could develop a first-of-its-kind canned food for diabetic cats (which has since been widely copied with modification to avoid the patent).
http://www.traciehotchner.com/cc/vet.htm
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 01:55:50 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Tasha

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 01:44:34 PM »
I bought some of the new Weruva pouch foods recently~ I grabbed a tuna one by accident...  I picked it up a couple of times to give them, but I couldn't bring myself to do it, lol~ I ended up returning it for a chicken flavor  :D

 cat3

Offline Lola

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 01:57:00 PM »
Here's more.  Anne lists 8 reasons and explains them http://www.catnutrition.org/faq.html



Strike Three: Urinary tract problems.

Fish, with its high magnesium content, can contribute to a type of urinary tract problem in cats.

...the discovery ...of magnesium as a culprit in feline urinary tract disorders was accompanied by the development of ...foods.
The idea ...was to add acid to the food, reasoning that magnesium crystals develop in alkaline, not acid urine. The problem is, cats whose urinary tract acid is too high are prone to another type of crystal--calcium oxylate. Just another reason it's best to feed a cat a diet that nature intended. As Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins points out in her book, the rise of urinary tract diseases in the cat coincided exactly with the increasing use of dry kibble ....


Since she will be cited often, some background on Dr. H:

Dr. Hodgkins has come to the same conclusion (that dry foods are detrimental to cats) by a much more prestigious route: she has been a vet for 30 years, more than 8 of them working inside Hill’s Pet Nutrition ... she was issued a patent for her revolutionary idea that cats are harmed by feeding highly-processed carbohydrate-containing foods: she assigned that patent to Purina so they could develop a first-of-its-kind canned food for diabetic cats (which has since been widely copied with modification to avoid the patent).
http://www.traciehotchner.com/cc/vet.htm


You should write that exact tidbit of info, concerning Dr. Hodgkins, in the child board of her name.  When I first read her name (a long time ago) in the same sentence with Purina and Hills...my eyes glazed over and I didn't "hear" anything after that. 
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Offline Lola

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 07:42:04 PM »
I know I am the OP, but... Bumpurr1

Don't some say that only certain fish are a problem?  Or certain amounts of fish?  Or where the fish are from?  I THINK I also read that such and such ingredient can be added (or removed) to avoid any issues. 

I don't feed fish, because it is easier not to.  My head will blow, if I have to do any more research concerning ingredients in pet food. 

I wanted to bring up the subject, so the ones that are "pro fish" can share their thoughts.  I am interested in both sides of the story... 
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 08:07:57 PM »
I know I am the OP, but... Bumpurr1

Don't some say that only certain fish are a problem?  Or certain amounts of fish?  Or where the fish are from?  I THINK I also read that such and such ingredient can be added (or removed) to avoid any issues. 

I don't feed fish, because it is easier not to.  My head will blow, if I have to do any more research concerning ingredients in pet food. 

I wanted to bring up the subject, so the ones that are "pro fish" can share their thoughts.  I am interested in both sides of the story... 

I'm the same way Lola. It's just easier to NOT feed any fish. In another forum I visit on occasion there is a member who always disagrees with me when I post against feeding of fish, insisting that the foods are highly regulated and the heavy metals are removed. Maybe they are in the UK, I don't know, but I don't agree with her,  and continue to post against feeding fish. Since we both post in any given thread on the subject (without becoming angry, incidentally), the readers are free to make their own decisions, after seeing both sides of the story.  :)

Tuna, especially, is not good for cats.

Offline Lola

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2011, 08:20:57 PM »
I'm the same way Lola. It's just easier to NOT feed any fish. In another forum I visit on occasion there is a member who always disagrees with me when I post against feeding of fish, insisting that the foods are highly regulated and the heavy metals are removed. Maybe they are in the UK, I don't know, but I don't agree with her,  and continue to post against feeding fish. Since we both post in any given thread on the subject (without becoming angry, incidentally), the readers are free to make their own decisions, after seeing both sides of the story.  :)

Tuna, especially, is not good for cats.

Could you invite that person here, because I am a little curious.   ;D 
I just got to thinking (uh oh!)... if someone posts their thoughts on a subject and three other members agree, the member that doesn't agree is often afraid to speak up.  They either are afraid of being ganged up on,  pangif ruffling feathers, yada, yada, yada.  I didn't want that to be the case here.  (NOT saying I don't like it when people agree with me though.  Bumpurr1
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2011, 08:53:59 PM »
Could you invite that person here, because I am a little curious.   ;D 
I just got to thinking (uh oh!)... if someone posts their thoughts on a subject and three other members agree, the member that doesn't agree is often afraid to speak up.  They either are afraid of being ganged up on,  pangif ruffling feathers, yada, yada, yada.  I didn't want that to be the case here.  (NOT saying I don't like it when people agree with me though.  Bumpurr1

I have extended an invitation to that person. :)

Offline Pinball

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 03:29:31 AM »
Hello, MiddleChild has asked me to come on this thread as the two of us are forever tangoing on the issue on that "other forum".

First things first, I absolutely agree with you that a fish-only diet is not the best diet for a cat (but than again I don't think that a diet of any one protein source is a balanced diet or indeed a diet from just one brand) and that a diet that contains a high proportion of "raw" or human-grade "cooked" fish is an absolutely no-no for many of the reasons listed here (but there are also others). With high proportion I personally mean it being fed more often than once a week at the very most. Because it is so strongly flavoured, I also agree that tuna-based food in particular can create fussy eaters.

But there are a few reasons why I personally think there is some misinformation about commercially produced cat food that is fish-based. But please keep in mind that I can only talk about the foods that are available to us in the UK and Continental Europe

Quote
* The fish used in canned pet foods usually includes bones, and are high in phosphorus and magnesium, which can be an issue in cats with a history of urinary tract disorders or kidney disease. In practice I have seen quite a few cats develop urinary tract infections and blockages if they eat much fish–even boneless fish.

It is not just fish-based cat food that contains bones. Meat-based food can contain chicken carcasses and other bone sources. If they don't use them then they either use a mineral complex that contains calcium or they use calcium carbonate or eggshells.

Fish-based cat food doesn’t, as a rule, contain more calcium, more phosphorus or more magnesium than meat-based cat food – at least not in the foods that I have looked at. That holds true for both wet food as well as dry food (a few of us have compared over 150 dry foods available in the UK and the ones with the highest mineral load aren’t fish-based ones).

It may be worth keeping in mind that many of the foods that are marketed as fish-flavoured food are just that; fish-flavoured. The actual fish content within that food is quite low and typically the food is packed with other (cheaper) protein-sources.

Personally, I think there is more variation amongst food brands in the mineral load of the food then there is variation between fish and meat foods within the same brand. So, if you are worried about FLUTDs etc it is worth looking at the labels, converting the wet food analysis to a dry matter analysis and choosing the one that has the lowest but still sustainable mineral load.

In terms of dry food, the crude ash content can vary from 4% to a whopping 10.9% (incidentally, as I have said before, the foods with the highest mineral content are a chicken and venison food).

Quote
* Many cats are sensitive or even allergic to fish; it is one of the top 3 most common food allergens.
Now that is interesting. Is there a reference to this somewhere? On that other forum we often get cats with dietary sensitivities – and just going by the rather unrepresentative sample of forum users, this seems to be on the increase. However, when I looked for a breakdown of the most common allergens I couldn’t find one that is relevant to cats. So, I would be grateful if anyone could push such a list my way.

Incidentally, I don’t think we have had a cat with a fish-allergy yet but plenty with grain and chicken sensitivities

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2011, 08:53:13 AM »
Thanks for chiming in Pinball! And welcome!

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 11:56:54 AM »
Welcome Pinball!! :)

While there are quite a few others including Drs. Foster and Smith stating this (on their website); here is Dr. Jean Hofve:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/food-allergies-in-cats/   "Cats often develop “food allergies” or “food intolerances” to ingredients found in commercial cat food. The top allergens are: chicken, fish and corn (very common cat food ingredients), beef ..."

Don't some say that only certain fish are a problem?  Or certain amounts of fish?  Or where the fish are from?  I THINK I also read that such and such ingredient can be added (or removed) to avoid any issues. 
Lola, it seems reading what the Doctors have to say, that it's fish in general. Pet food makers use it because it's good and stinky which of course is 'finicky'  cat prequisite #1, thus all this confusion now.

Veterinarians specialising in Nutrition are recommending fish in either small quantities (perhaps as a treat or "enticer"), or fish oil supplements.

Smaller fish lowest on the food chain don't have as much "junk" in them.  ;)

Dr Pierson www.catinfo.org says in her recipe section which does not include fish: Raw fish should never be fed in large amounts because it contains thiaminase which will lead to a thiamine deficiency in the cat.

Since they are also in fish, here's A TON of details here about the Omegas: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/omega-3s-are-essential-for-your-cat/


While we're at it, Hyperthyroidism is all too common -- this makes sense!:  

http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/fish-oil-and-hyperthyroidism/

Hope this helps clarify things more. It's a lot of (good) reading! :) thumbsup1

« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:12:42 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Pinball

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 12:13:07 PM »
Hey CarnivorousCritters, thanks for the links. Yes, I have come across several statements made by vets or others about what they perceive to be common allergens but I really would like to have some more data that is more accurately collected and doesn't just rely on people's perceptions. As i have said, based on my perceptions it is chicken, rice, beef and lamb that seem to be the most common allergens that we have come across. I am not a vet but I am a doctor with a long-standing interest in cat nutrition.

Yes, there are many reasons why raw fish shouldn't be fed on a regular basis - regular meaning more than once a week perhaps. They are nicely summarised here: http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/rawfish.htm.

Being a raw feeder I use salmon oil to provide my cats with omega 3s.

Gosh, there has been a link between HT in cats and numerous correlates, including litter tray use, walking on the floor a lot(!), flea treatment, canned wet food. So, just because one study or even a few studies finds a link between fish food and HT doesn't mean that the link is an important one considering loads of other potential correlates.

Have you (not meaning you personally but anyone really) compared the mineral content of fish vs meat flavoured food within the same brands in the US? Unless you are doing that to see whether there actually is a difference you are just repeating other people's assumptions. I can only speak about available foods over here and there are no real differences. As I said before, there are bigger differences between different brands of food as there are between fish and meat foods of the same brand.

I have said it before and I say it again. I agree with you guys that a fish only diet (commercial cat food of course) is not a balanced diet. But the same is true for any one protein source. Or indeed just feeding one brand.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:19:01 PM by Pinball »

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 12:39:05 PM »
Hi Pinball  thumbsup1

While Dr. Hofve does reference the Perdue study, unfortunately most of the more bigger-scale 'studies' are conducted- funded by the pet food industry so I focus on those veterinarians who have come to the conclusions based on their own studies, independent research, and client experiences.  I trust their credibility and experience immensely.

If we were to take a poll of these members, http://www.ahvma.org/   it's safe to say there would be a definitive conclusion among them as well.

While it's always great to  engarde1  nobody really wants to "win the argument" here. Just presenting info from all points-of-view can allow folks to come to their own informed conclusions. thumbsup1

Glad you're Here!!!! Please stick around. And BTW the RAW section is verrry lonely!!   


Offline Pinball

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Re: Why Fish Is Dangerous For Cats
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2011, 01:13:29 PM »
Thanks for the welcome by the way!

Ah don't worry CC, I am just keen that people critically reflect the stuff that they read - even when it comes from revered sites such as cat info.  ;)

Oh, I am not sure whether I would be quite as damming about research conducted by or on behalf of pet food manufacturers - depending on the subject of course! If we were comparing a commercial food to a raw food I would be highly sceptical of any conclusions drawn by the brand. If it is about common allergens I perhaps wouldn't be quite as damning. The study that explored the urine concentration of dry vs wet fed cats in the other thread was conducted on behalf of Hills and the conclusions that can be drawn from them are interesting.

I don't know much about good quality wet food in the US. The two I know are Wellness and Nature's Variety. While it is true that the Wellness fish food contains slightly more ash and magnesium (doesn't refer to ca or p on their website) than their meat-based foods (only by 0.005 or 0.01% re mg and since they don't mention moisture levels it may just be that the fish ones contain less moisture than the meat ones..) but they contain less mg than the NV Instinct meat wet food (again, they don't provide the moisture level so not sure how that would translate into a DMA comparison)

Oh yes, the raw section is - errm - a tiny bit deserted at the moment.

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