Author Topic: Large breed puppy food?  (Read 5083 times)

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Offline Amber

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Large breed puppy food?
« on: March 06, 2014, 11:19:00 PM »
Since it is official that River staying now, I need some help. Based on my research, coonhounds can get up to 80lbs. I have no Idea what River is mixed with, and I know that the size of her paws isn't an entirely accurate indicator, but I think she is going to be pretty big. So.... large breed puppy food? She is going to have to eat mostly commercial food, at least in the beginning. Right now I have a bag of Merrick Whole Earth Farms puppy food... I didn't think she would be staying with me long-term, needed to grab something quick, and she showed up between paychecks. I need to get her some appropriate food, and I have NO experience with large breeds. There is some research that indicates that a raw diet may not be so great for large breed dogs until they are older. Probably bogus, but I don't want to screw up the calcium amount and cause her problems. From what I have seen, Orijen Large Breed Puppy seems to be the best, but I am open to suggestions.

Also, and this is the wrong place for this, but... I am getting her used to a collar right now, so she has a generic little breakaway safety collar on, but when I start least training her, should she have a Martingale collar? A front clip harness?

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 11:39:49 PM »
To help you understand the difference in larger breed dogs from smaller breeds, I'm going to send you to where we were sent when Vlad developed his shoulder problem.

The Great Dane lady specializes in raising larger breeds, and she's got several options for feeding a large-breed puppy to adulthood.

I don't agree with all her food choices, and we continued feeding Vlad a mix of raw & kibble (separate meals) until last year when we found an option that Barkly would eat in emergencies. Now I just feed them raw.

Remember, you don't have to feed exactly what she recommends. But you need to keep an eye on the amounts of things like minerals, etc. that the foods she prefers contain. She specializes in fixing problems like Vlad's possible OCD, but she also has a LONG running, proven program of just raising large dogs. Vlad's breeder thinks none of those special blackwatch supplements are a real need though--unless you run into problems like we did with Vlad by letting him run when he was growing so ridiculously fast there for a few months.

http://www.greatdanelady.com/

And foods:

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/criteria_list_of_better_foods.htm

There are plenty of foods out there that work. There are plenty of foods out there that are specifically made for large breed puppies, so if you have a preference for any one company, go with it. Most of Vlad's formative growth was spent on Nature's Variety Instinct with the raw coating as the kibble part of their meals.

You can start looking at other foods specifically for larger breeds by looking through this search:

http://www.petco.com/shop/searchresults.aspx?Ntt=large+breed+puppy&x=0&y=0

I don't have any proof, but I've been told that a lot of those foods have been developed using Great Dane Lady's nutritional research over the years of raising Danes.

EDIT: I DO think that puppy of yours has some awfully big feet to grow into. Unless it's a dwarf, a puppy's size can usually be determined rather well by its paws.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 11:47:25 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Amber

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 11:52:23 PM »
Reading it now. Thank you :)

Offline Amber

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 12:37:51 AM »
So. No Orijen large breed puppy; thats a pity. It looks like Precise Holistic Complete Large breed puppy is the most highly recommended. I'm a bit iffy about some of my ingredients, but it doesn't look horrible and I am going to defer to those with greater knowledge. Would you be comfortable discussing exactly what you fed Vlad?

I appreciate your time and help :)

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 09:56:01 AM »
From day one, Vlad has gotten 6 different types of raw meat rotated (Duck, venison, beef, chicken, quail, green tripe); various vegetable & fruits in a puree (w/kibble meal); a couple of tablespoons of yogurt or cottage cheese; raw eggs; a puppy vitamin to make the vet happier so that he knew "for sure 'the holes' are being filled in"; coconut oil when he was 16 weeks old and started "puppy acne"--breakfast and lunch.

We started out with Wellness for kibble, then Taste of the Wild, then went to Nature's Variety Instinct when Taste of the Wild was recalled--for their supper w/the vegetable puree.

When Vlad was between 5-6 mths old and had his shoulder injury, his breeder sent me to The Great Dane Lady's site and told me to read the OCD info and get those supplements she suggests. So we started him on the supplements in this blackwatch protocol: http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/feed_program_for_ocd_repair.htm No, at that point, I didn't worry about grains being the carbs, and his vet wasn't worried either when we went over the GDL protocol.

We MIGHT follow GDL's regime altogether from day one if we ever have to get another large guard and wait till it's older to start raw, but I WILL follow the large-breeder rule and not let it run at all until it's at least 18 mths old because it helps prevent things like OCD. No BRT seems to have problems being fed the Russian way (only had processed foods over there between 20-30 years now, so many of their dogs still eat the way I've fed Vlad) if the dog is prevented certain activity. This woman is Russian, one of the original importers of BRTs to US & I went by what she says: http://www.russianguard.com/diet.htm when deciding how to feed Vlad. I talked to her and she contends that a lot of dogs that were over in Russia lived 2-3 years longer over there than large dogs over here do, and she believes that diet plays a big part in it.

I will continue to veer from the strict predator-diet and give fruits and vegetable puree because I believe there are antioxidants in those that help with things like cancer. Maybe it's just my dogs, or the fact that I make puree, but I don't see anything in their poop that says they're not digesting it. After 3 cases of cancer in a row, I'm sick of it, so now we're doing everything we can think of to stay away from it, and fresh antioxidants are going to be part of it.

Kibble ended altogether last year when we found out Barkly would eat Dr. Harvey's Grain-free Oracle Beef, so that's what we keep for emergency food now and don't have to keep them eating kibble anymore. Don't ever stop kibble if you want them to keep on eating it. They've been offered plenty of samples in the pet stores since I quit it, and they turn their noses up at it.

When Vlad was 18 mths, after talking to his breeder, I switched his GLD recommended digestive enzymes for: http://www.entirelypets.com/caplvi1ta.html (Barkly has also gotten the enzymes & glucosamine, since Vlad had to start them, and vitamins since he's also raw-fed.) The Canine Plus; human brand Glucosamine Sulfate; and Coconut oil are the only supplements they get now.

At this adult age, they still get 3 meals a day, 2 meats at breakfast and supper and 1 veg/fruit puree at lunch, but they get 3 meals only because I want them to have the veg/fruit. If I didn't, they'd only get two.

Edit: I forgot that they get a piece of liver, gizzard, beef heart, or some other organ meat at each breakfast too.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:01:11 AM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Amber

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 10:14:04 AM »
Okay, so if he was eating TOTW, you don't agree with the no grain free?

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2014, 10:49:49 AM »
After Dannyboy's allergies to corn, wheat and rice by the time he was 2 and the hell we lived through finding out what was wrong with him and why he was so sick, no--I hate grains. I'm scared of grains actually. That's why I didn't switch his kibble part when the shoulder problem hit.

Grains work fine for a lot of dogs, but in my experience, they're awful and--unless in the rarer case of certified organic--more likely to be GMOs than anything else. If they're not given grains on a regular basis, they aren't likely at all to develop grain allergies from occasional treats, etc. So far I've not had any problems with any of the things they're given like Zuke's for training (I prefer the grain free things they have but DO switch it up every now and then and let them have one of the rice-added ones). But, as I said, if we have to raise another giant, I MIGHT follow GDL's feeding protocol until the puppy is a bit older. That's something we'll have to think about in the future. Now that they make it though, I prefer tapioca or garbanzo beans to potato for the starches.

If you decide to feed River grains, then start an elimination diet immediately if she starts getting sick--scratching, watery eyes, yeasty ear infections, hair loss, hot spots (this is the worst part since they can go over half of their body like Dannyboy did before anyone figured out what was wrong--me actually while watching a Pedigree sponsored dog show thanks to something someone from Pedigree said)--absolutely no grains and completely switch which kind of brand and protein she's getting. The only thing they had around when Dannyboy got sick was Natural Balance, and it worked quite well for him. Later on he ate Taste of the Wild, but I also started adding in raw meat after the last calf we slaughtered started freezer-burning. He didn't mind the flavor like we did, so why let it go to waste? Watching how meat made him act and feel, and talking to Ms. Brailovsky, is why we decided to go to raw feeding with Barkly & Vlad.

Should you ever decide to feed raw, make sure you have an "emergency" food that's readily available in pet stores that she'll eat. Tornadoes happen, electricity and freezers are lost, and you've still (hopefully) got hungry dogs. As it was, the only finicky Corgi on the face of this earth Barkly, would only eat 2 kibbles--Halo and Nature's Variety Instinct, and he'd starve rather than eat them now.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:51:51 AM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Amber

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 04:09:31 PM »
After a lot of thought and research, I have decided to go ahead with the Orijen LBP, for now. Its not that I am as vehemently anti-grain for dogs as I am for cats, I just have a bit more trust (not that I trust any commercial food completely) for Orijen's quality and ingredients, especially now that Orijen doesn't have potatoes in it. A lot of the recommended foods from that site I looked at contain rice, and I worry about arsenic contamination. I also saw really vague ingredients like "fat product." It seems that more up to date research shows that overfeeding is more of a concern than dmb protein, which makes sense since dogs are carnivores, after all.

I do have one concern that I am trying to reconcile. While I don't think protein levels are a problem for carnivores, in nature and in properly fed raw diets, high protein always comes with a large amount of moisture. A lot of sources suggest soaking kibble with water, which would solve the moisture problem, but that has been brought up here before, and it was decided that mixing water with kibble isn't a good idea. I want to get her on a proper raw diet later, but how do I handle the moisture issue until then? I don't really trust her to drink enough.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 04:22:29 PM »
Soaking with warm water is a strict no-no. It will kill the probiotic/vitamin that's sprayed on the outside of the food. To get more fluids, just give her some low-sodium broth or goat's milk--but make sure you count the calories in milk as part of her food and lower the kibble amount.

You could also flavor her water with Pro-bloom and she'd drink more just because it will taste like milk:  http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/supplements/pro-bloom You don't have to mix it up as directed, just a little then you could trust that more of her calories will come from the Orijen.

Dogs really aren't that much like cats though. They'll drink and drink most of the time. Especially when fresh water is first put down. One of the bigger issues is not letting her drink TOO much at times when she gets hot. She'll just vomit it all up & then not want any. I've had Vlad do that before until I learned his summer limits.

Edit: All dogs have summer limits, but dogs bred for the northern extremes, like Vlad, are especially troublesome sometimes.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 04:24:58 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 05:59:27 PM »
Can you feed canned? 
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Offline Amber

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 10:16:14 PM »
Not completely. I have not yet found a commercial canned food with ingredients I approve of that has the proper overall calcium levels AND ca:ph ratio for a large breed puppy. Also, to be perfectly honest, I don't think I could afford an entirely canned diet right now, at least not a good one.

Offline Pookie

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 09:16:48 AM »
Not completely. I have not yet found a commercial canned food with ingredients I approve of that has the proper overall calcium levels AND ca:ph ratio for a large breed puppy. Also, to be perfectly honest, I don't think I could afford an entirely canned diet right now, at least not a good one.

I hope you don't mind, but I just wanted to toss this in:  we do the best we can.  It may not be perfect, it may not be as good as we'd like, but it's all we can do.  Whatever you're able to do for River, Amber, I'm absolutely sure will be better than she would have had anywhere else.  Just my  2cents.
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Offline Lola

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 05:23:28 PM »
I hope you don't mind, but I just wanted to toss this in:  we do the best we can.  It may not be perfect, it may not be as good as we'd like, but it's all we can do.  Whatever you're able to do for River, Amber, I'm absolutely sure will be better than she would have had anywhere else.  Just my  2cents.
I agree! 

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Offline Amber

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2014, 08:23:52 PM »
I found this list of foods with appropriate calcium levels for LBPs:
'https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit

Orijen isn't on it, because the calcium levels are right on the acceptable line, but I want to include it as part of her rotation.

I still have quite a bit of Orijen left, as I bought the largest available bag. However, I am uncomfortable feeding the same food day in and day out, even if it has great ingredient. I have come up with this -tentative- rotation plan for River, and I would like input on it. I am listing the names of the foods and their primary meat and carb sources.

Orijen LBP (Chicken, turkey, a gazillion different kinds of fish, lentils)
Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast (Lamb and peas)
Fromm 4 Star Gamebird (Duck, Turkey, Peas, Potatoes, Quail and Chicken)
Canine Caviar Holistic Wilderness (Venison and peas)
Orijen LBP, again.
Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch (Herring Meal, Potatoes, peas)
Fromm 4 Star Beef Fritata Veg (Beef, Eggs, Potatoes, Peas, Pork meal, Sweet Potatoes)
Canine Caviar Holistic Open Sky (Duck meal and chickpeas)

That is 7 different varieties from 4 different companies with 9 different protein sources, more if you count all the varieties of fish. I will, of course, be adding fresh food to this as much as possible. Does it look like I have all my bases covered?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 08:26:07 PM by Amber »

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Large breed puppy food?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2014, 08:29:44 PM »
Dogs aren't cats. You can't mix their foods unless you actually MIX their foods together. It makes them have digestive issues.

You can mix different flavors of SOME brands now--like all Natural Balance, or all Taste of the Wild, or all Nature's Variety, but you can't mix brand to brand without some issues. Unless you just like living with gas, diarrhea, etc.

It's different when you're feeding them home cooking for some reason. I've never had problems rotating raw, but I keep their veg/fruit puree for lunch the same most of the time. Carrots, green peas, green beans, some kind of greens, apples, bananas with occasional pieces of the fruit I'm eating for snacks at lunch. I've found changing too many veg/fruits can cause problems too.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 08:32:03 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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