Author Topic: Addison's and dogs  (Read 8791 times)

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Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 01:37:04 PM »
You're welcome!  It's handy information to have; even if you don't get a puppy, you can test the dog that you do adopt.  If the dog already has some sort of issue like allergies, this gives you an idea of whether or not there's a hormonal imbalance, and a way to correct it if there is.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 08:57:55 PM »
Cross posted at: http://parenting-furkids.com/index.php?topic=3954.msg28748#msg28748


The Estrogen thing. I don't think Vlad's adrenals can make estrogen at all anymore. If it can't make aldosterone to regulate the potassium and sodium, and it can't make cortisol, then I don't think it can make estrogen at all either. I'll have to ask about that on the 6th at his next appointment. I'll put it on the question list right now.

I just remembered that I asked about it yesterday. I was told that the body also converted some testosterone to the estrogen it needs, and since Vlad hasn't been deprived of his testosterone, he really saw no reason to worry about him not having enough estrogen. If Vlad were neutered, we might look into the possibility of some of those other hormonal issues.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2015, 08:21:33 PM »
Answer to Pookie's request in: http://parenting-furkids.com/index.php?topic=3954.msg28752#msg28752

However, it should be noted, that if the animal has low cortisol, it should also have it's potassium and sodium watched closely. Part of Addison's disease is the inability to make cortisol as well as aldosterone.

It's pretty much accepted by everyone that the cortisol is what goes first because there's a Secondary Addison's that is a lack of cortisol, but they still make the aldosterone. In Secondary Addison's, they only need the prednisone to replace the cortisol, and they don't need the Percorten V or Florinef to replace the aldosterone.

It's not uncommon at all though for the animal to progress into Primary Addison's later, so their potassium and sodium still have to be observed closely.

I still can't help but think that the low cortisol Plechner is talking about is the beginning of Addison's in a lot of cases, but giving the animal cortisol-replacement therapy might help the adrenals not be overworked so much and hold Addison's off for a while or even permanently.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 08:22:25 PM »
Thanks, DeeDee.  Would you mind posting that information in the Addison's section as well?

That didn't seem to be the case in all the examples his book mentions.  These were all animals that had allergies, UTIs, kidney issues, ibd, cancer, behavior issues, epilepsy, vaccine reactions, etc., and those issues were corrected once their cortisol levels were brought into balance.  Their ages varied from kittens/puppies to 8 years old or older.  And cats don't seem to get Addison's, at least, it's my understanding that it's rare, but he used this program to treat cats as well for the issues listed above.

It's possible that eventually maybe some of these animals would have developed Addison's, but he literally treated thousands this way.  In Vlad's case, did he have any other issues going on, like allergies (rash, ear infections, that sort of thing)?  My impression he was doing great and then not acting like himself and then he crashed, but that was just an impression.


No. It was exactly that. He seemed like himself (though looking back now, a lot of things were odd for at least a year), then things started going really wrong from April until June when he crashed. I have my suspicions that during that time before he crashed, he was probably in secondary Addison's during that year, but it just wasn't found until he went into primary and crashed.

But there ARE a lot of people that think that Addison's disease is greatly under-diagnosed just because it's so hard to diagnose. They usually can't really find it, or don't, until the animal crashes, and then, in a lot of cases, it's too late. Vlad and the other BRT in Maryland that crashed on Memorial Day weekend were both REALLY lucky. We've both been told that a lot of times after people looked over their clinical notes from ER.

I also know that in a lot of the other cases of Addison's, the dogs have multiple problems like allergies, kidney disease, pancreatitis, etc. Vlad's pancreatitis thing seems to be controlled now with ACV and turmeric that the vet said I could try with him (after he talked to the herbalist there). The turmeric finished doing what the ACV didn't completely do alone.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2015, 03:37:50 PM »
I don't have anything to add.  Just reading.... 
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2015, 12:28:05 AM »
Got to bounce some ideas off of y'all. Let's just say that if I go to that group, they're going to blame it on "a high dose of prednisone" like they do with everyone that has issues with lowering it.

We've been working on lowering him. This week was SUPPOSED to be the first week of nothing but 3.5 mg every day. However, during last week when rotating 3.5 and 4.0, we began to notice some odd behavior in Vlad again:

1. Barking at the least little thing.
2. Jumping at every little noise--then barking like a maniac.
3. Not playing as much with Barkly outside.
4. Being clingy and over-wanting attention.

So, I called his vet this morning and asked if prednisone had something to do with psychological health as well as physical health. He said that he didn't know that it would, but anything's possible. After talking a couple of more minutes, we decided for me to move him back up to 4.0 mg a day. Because suddenly I don't have that confident, calm BRT again, and 4.0 was the last dose that he was on before the symptoms started. Keep in mind that there have been NO physical symptoms such as vomiting and diarrhea to indicate the dose being too low.

Now, after looking all day, I still can't really find anything concrete on low cortisol and behavioral changes in dogs. BUT, I've found some symptoms on humans--I guess humans can verbalize what they're feeling when dogs can't.

On this page  https://blog.udemy.com/low-cortisol/ it lists several things that have to do with psychological health and low cortisol, and these are the ones listed about those issues:

1. Mental and psychological ailments such as depression
2. Emotional hypersensitivity
3. Inability to cope with stress
4. Social anxiety
5. Anxiety and jitters

So, my question is. . .Do you all think that the way Vlad was acting indicates that lower than 4.0 is too low for his body and personality's needs? (And he's been better today after 4.0 again--since yesterday was supposed to be his last 4.0 day so that he's had 4.0mg for 2 days in a row.)

I'm really torn here b/c there's a lot of people out there getting away with 1 to 1.5mg for dogs the size of Great Danes. But they all talk about physical symptoms being what you go on to find their proper dose. None of them have dogs that have the same intensity and drive that a BRT has. The other person with a BRT with Addison's was just fussed at about 2.5 mg prednisone being too high. My telling them that the personality issues didn't start until I started lowering isn't going to help. They're just going to blame everything on "such a high dose."

And if this really is such a high dose, then do we just drive ourselves crazy living with a psycho dog in order to get him to a lower dose that only covers his physical needs? Neither one of us really like Vlad when he's acting the way he did last week. In fact, hubs was relieved when he came home from work today, and Vlad wasn't acting like a wild thing.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2015, 09:28:17 AM »
I THINK I would stay with the 4.0 dose.  A lower dose may be better for him, but if he is miserable... 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:45:37 AM by Lola, Reason: spelling »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2015, 12:27:49 PM »
Here's my  2cents, fwiw:

Vlad is not a Great Dane, or any of the other dogs on those forums or blogs.  He is Vlad.  As an individual, it may very well be that he needs that high of a dose to be healthy, not just physically, but psychologically.  The behavior you were seeing might have been the early stage of physical issues that just weren't apparent yet.

And yes, IMO behavior can be affected by cortisol levels.  Dr. Plechner's book addressed it, and in humans, low cortisol (or adrenal fatigue for that matter -- the adrenals produce cortisol) can also cause depression, anxiety and an inability to cope with stress.  It can also show up as low resistance to illness.  His behavior change may have been an indication that he needed a higher dose of cortisol.

I know you would rather have him on a lower dose, but it's possible that the 4.0 is the lowest you can go for him.  If you're comfortable and want to, wait a month or two and try to go down to alternating 3.5/4.0 again and see what happens.  If the behaviors return, then you have your answer.

I hope this helps!  grouphug
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 01:09:16 PM »
Thank you both! I feel better after hearing what both of you would do.

After yesterday and today, I'm almost certain that his wackiness was caused by the 3.5 not being enough. He's back to the person(ality) I like. Being that nothing else changed, I can't think that it's anything else but that.

What's the name of Dr. Plechner's book? I've got a gift-card to Amazon, and I think I might spend it on that.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 09:48:28 PM »
Here you go:  Pets at Risk:  From Allergies to Cancer, Remedies for an Unsuspected Epidemic

http://www.amazon.com/Pets-Risk-Allergies-Remedies-Unsuspected/dp/0939165481/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450237582&sr=1-1&keywords=alfred+plechner

Keep in mind, he doesn't really address Addison's, but you might find the information useful all the same, just in terms of learning about cortisol and the effect it has on the body when it's not in balance.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2015, 10:23:14 PM »
Okay. Got that book ordered. It's supposed to be here somewhere between 24th-28th. I was telling Vlad's breeder about what you'd found and the book, Pookie, and she wants to read it too after I finish. She said a female is always having ear and skin problems, and she wants to check into this for her.

I'm almost positive now that anything less than 4.0mg is too little for him. He's been calm and "normal" again since he's been back on that dose since Sunday. It's kind of amazing to me that even a half of a milligram could make that much difference, but I know what I've seen in my buddy. There's a difference, and I've decided that it's just not right to let him be unhappy or unsettled in any way if there's something I can do about it--even if it means going against the status quo and what they preach.

None of them want to hear about problems anyway, if you don't do exactly what they say. You know. Because you're having problems because you didn't do exactly what they told you. Doesn't matter if you didn't have problems until you tried doing what they told you.  bangshead
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2015, 05:04:53 AM »
I agree with the others.  Quality of life, for Vlad and the rest of the family is so important. You want a happy dog as well as a healthy dog.  I think your theory that the lower dose affects him negatively psychologically makes perfect sense.

Offline Lola

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2015, 07:00:17 PM »
The bottom line... YOU know YOUR dog.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2015, 09:54:28 PM »
Okay. Got that book ordered. It's supposed to be here somewhere between 24th-28th. I was telling Vlad's breeder about what you'd found and the book, Pookie, and she wants to read it too after I finish. She said a female is always having ear and skin problems, and she wants to check into this for her.

I'm almost positive now that anything less than 4.0mg is too little for him. He's been calm and "normal" again since he's been back on that dose since Sunday. It's kind of amazing to me that even a half of a milligram could make that much difference, but I know what I've seen in my buddy. There's a difference, and I've decided that it's just not right to let him be unhappy or unsettled in any way if there's something I can do about it--even if it means going against the status quo and what they preach.

None of them want to hear about problems anyway, if you don't do exactly what they say. You know. Because you're having problems because you didn't do exactly what they told you. Doesn't matter if you didn't have problems until you tried doing what they told you.  bangshead

It sounds like you are trusting your instincts.   thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1  Like Lola said, "YOU know YOUR dog."

You ordered the book?  That's great!  I really hope there's information in it that you find helpful, and that your breeder finds it useful, too.  fingerscrossed

I agree with the others.  Quality of life, for Vlad and the rest of the family is so important. You want a happy dog as well as a healthy dog.

Beautifully said!
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2015, 10:49:56 PM »
You ordered the book?  That's great!  I really hope there's information in it that you find helpful, and that your breeder finds it useful, too.  fingerscrossed

I hope I get it in time to at least find the psychological info in it to show to his vet on the 29th when he goes back for his 28-day appointment. I'd really like to be able to give him some info on it because it might be something people want to watch for since there are 2 other dogs there with Addison's. I'm probably the only one that keeps their nose in it as deeply as mine is, but it still might help someone if he knows about it. If I don't get it in time, there's always January 26th.

I really, really want to thank you all for the help. Sometimes it's hard to know what to do when you're getting so much conflicting info from other places. This really isn't the right time of the year for me to drive myself crazy with a bunch of "what ifs," and you're all a big part of why I'm not driving myself nutzo anymore. I'm finally beginning to think that I've got a handle on understanding all this, and how it affects him. I'm MUCH calmer now thanks to all of you!

Love you all!

"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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