Parenting-Furkids
Cats => Cat Food And Nutrition => Topic started by: Amber on November 28, 2011, 02:00:03 PM
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I just want to see what everyone has to say about this.
First of all, let me say that Amber has not eaten dry food since I rescued her when she was young kitten. She has bounced back and forth from eating canned food to raw, which is what she is currently eating, and I have no plans to put her on it. However, I constantly worry about what I would do if my situation changed and I could not afford to feed her quality grain free canned or raw food.
Many people seem to believe that any canned is better than any dry because of the moisture issue. I agree that moisture is critical in a feline's diet, but if it came down to it, I would feel more comfortable feeding Amber a high quality, grain-free dry food than a canned food that contains by-products, unnamed meat sources, or questionable preservatives, if I added the moisture back to the diet with water.
I understand the bacteria issue with kibble, and I know that adding water to kibble can create a volatile bacteria soup in fifteen or twenty minutes; however, if I put it on Amber's plate, it is gone in about five minutes. I guess the question I put before you is: If you were in a situation where you had to choose between a high quality, low carb, grain free kibble and a low quality, low carb, grain free canned that contained by-products and unnamed meat sources what would you do?
I think, if I were ever in that situation, I would grind the kibble, rehydrate it with water, and make sure it was picked up and any leftovers thrown away with in ten minutes.
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I'd feed a low quality canned food over high quality dry any day.
Dry food is low in moisture, high in carb, and to low in animal protein. Yes, adding some water to the dry can up the moisture content, but it also is a breeding ground for bacteria. Adding water is not going to fix the carb levels or where the protein is coming from.
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I would feed a lessor quality wet, over a "quality" dry. I've done the "quality, low carb, grain free, blah, blah, blah" dry before. I won't make that mistake again.
Also, I don't think I would ever be comfortable with adding water to any dry.
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I would go with the lower quality wet food. Since Shadow had crystals a very long time ago, I am not going down that road again. Plus if they were to eat the kibble they would just gain too much weight, which they do not need either. They need moisture, and they need the protein, which is higher than any dry food.
There is a list of cheaper wet foods that are free of gluten and have minimal carbs on Tracie Hotchners web site.
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The following info is almost two years old. :(
There are many foods listed that I would feed, if my financial situation changed. (Nutro not being one of them.)
Supermarket brands:
http://www.traciehotchner.com/cc/files/CatChatCatFoodSupermarketBrands.pdf
Cat Chat Approve Foods:
http://www.traciehotchner.com/cc/files/CatChatApprovedFoods.pdf
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I have experiences with both, and I can tell you, you absolutly, do not, want to go with any brand wet or dry, that has glutens, grains and by products, unless its for financial issues. Grains are one of many, but the biggest, cause of crystals and bladder issues, I have a crystal kitty. Glutens - remember the Menu Foods saga of 2007.
By products can include euthinized cats and dogs, including their collors, and diseased animals, pretty much anything they want to throw in there, beaks, claws, any....thing. :o
I have done extensive research on grains, I have a crystal kitty. I followed the Menu Foods saga from the beginnng, way too many cats and dogs died, for no other reason, than greed and money, China trying to buy ingredients and a lower price, to boost their profits.
Why the heckola, would anyone, want to feed their babies, a foodie, that has euthinized dogs and cats, including their collors and diseased animals, and...... the drug given these animals, to put them down?
They cut our hours back, I went the less expensive wet food route. Guess what, kittens threw it up, they went back to the BW wet, the other 2 not only threw it up, they had to go to the vet, $400 vet bill, they went back on the BW wet. Bump never left it, he cannot, he has heart issues, it is imperative, he stay on the grain free, gluten free, by product free and soy free food.
Bump is the president of the I ain't eatin no wet foodies, at all, period. He gets BW dry, mixed with 1 teaspoon Gerber baby food chicken, mixed with water, so its like a broth, and this is per my vet, so he gets the increased water intake, to keep him flushed out. Twice a day.
Wet is better than dry. It is better because it has added moisture, but even that, you have to mix with water, so its real soupy, to keep them hydrated and flushed out, to prevent crystals and bladder issues.
I been the cheap foodies route, it caused one kitty crystals, the other 2 a huge vet bill, and Bump had tummy issues, and he got too fat, judges said so, vet confirmed it.
I feed Blue Wilderness, chicken, no more crystals, no more tummy issues, no more throwing up, no more vet bills, which cost me more, in the long run, buying cheaper foodies.
Like I said, I been this cheap route, it cost me more, in the long run, in vet bills. I go to work, and I go home, and figure out a way, to only spend $50 at the grocery store, so my babies can have good quality food. And I come on here, and bug the heckola, out of Lola, M-O-L, and that, is my entertainment. :P :-* TexasFlag bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif bumpgif
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Ok so who is going to debate bumpurrs good points about the "by products"?? boxing1
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Ok so who is going to debate bumpurrs good points about the "by products"?? boxing1
Avoid them if at all possible :D I'd still feed canned with by-products over dry food though.
By-products can be things that are horrible (plastic, dead pets, etc) but some by-products are not "bad". I feed my cats "by-products" all the time - chicken hearts, gizzards, livers, beef heart, kidney, throat, chicken feet - all of which I think fall under the label of by-products.
Trader Joe's canned, if I am remembering right, does not have by-products. It is only $0.60ish for a 5.5 ounce can.
Of course, I also would like to note that home-prepared prey model raw is cheaper than canned food like Friskies IF you find sales and stock up when things are cheap. It is much healthier as well :)
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This food... (http://www.evopet.com/products/1441)
is grain-free, high (animal based) protein. It contains no ingredients that I would not be comfortable feeding, and as for the carbs, it is at 7%. I would prefer 5% or less, but 7% is not bad at all, especially for a kibble. If the food is rehydrated to have the same amount of moisture as a canned food and is consumed in about 5 minutes, leaving little time for bacteria to multiply, is it honestly inferior to a canned food containing by-products, animal fat, bht, bha, and/or ethoxyquin?
Now, the P&G takeover of the company makes me nervous, but that is a different matter.
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I don't trust P&G at all and wouldn't feed food made by them. Just look at their "product pull" aka recall. Even taking that aside, there may be more behind the carb level, than the company is letting on.
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Low-carb_diet
Even though there is a dry food for cats called Innova Evo Cat & Kitten[7] that claims a 7 per cent carbohydrate level, some caregivers have found that it did not produce reduced blood glucose levels as effectively as wet food with a similar carbohydrate rating. In fact a vet had EVO dry food tested and found its carbohydrate level was nearly double what it was claimed.[8] One of our case studies shows a 150 mg/dL point drop in blood glucose levels by removing EVO from a mixed wet/dry diet. However, dry EVO can serve as a transitional food for dry food addicts--change the cat from their normal dry to dry EVO, then gradually replace the dry EVO by wet EVO or another low carb wet food.
Also see the first paragraph on http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/diet.html
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Noted.
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I used to feed the Evo as a treat (like maybe 5 pieces) a day. I dont like the fact that its now owned by P&G either.
We do feed the wet Evo as part of our rotation.
The thing with these cheaper foods lets say for example friskies. Im sure they do not use the good "by products" like Mo stated (hearts, livers, organs) I can just imagine what they use, yikes!!!
I know that feeding Raw is cheaper, but for some it may not be possible. We will hopefully get to it soon, still getting more info before I take the plunge, and waiting for my local market to get in some fresh liver, hearts etc so I can seperate them and freeze them.
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Amber, you might want to look up, what chicken meal and herring meal is, and salt is not even listed as an ingredient. My vet said to beware, any foodie, that does not list salt, usually means its high in salt. Bump has heart issues, so he has to have a foodie that is low in salt, so its something I have to be aware of. High salt, for even a normal kitty, is not good. High salt is what the petty foodie co's put in their urinary diets, cause, salt makes them drink more, which is what you want, but not a safe way to do it. Sorry, had to hurry this, have to leave for work and got 12 hr shift ahead of me today. TexasFlag bumpgif
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Amber, you might want to look up, what chicken meal and herring meal is, and salt is not even listed as an ingredient. My vet said to beware, any foodie, that does not list salt, usually means its high in salt. Bump has heart issues, so he has to have a foodie that is low in salt, so its something I have to be aware of. High salt, for even a normal kitty, is not good. High salt is what the petty foodie co's put in their urinary diets, cause, salt makes them drink more, which is what you want, but not a safe way to do it. Sorry, had to hurry this, have to leave for work and got 12 hr shift ahead of me today. TexasFlag bumpgif
According to EVO's site (if you trust their info) the food has 0.38% Sodium and 0.61% Chloride - I assume on an as fed basis. NaCl (salt) is sodium chloride so would adding those together get the amount of salt? It is to early in the morning for me to be thinking clearly Doh1 so if I'm wrong, please correct me!
The next site I was able to find the sodium amount for their food on is Merricks. They claim their canned cat food is 0.26 - 0.40% sodium on a Dry Matter Basis.
If you look at this chart: http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp it lists the sodium (Na) levels in different prey that a cat would naturally eat.
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Thanks for that very nifty chart, Mo.
Bookmarked thumbsup1
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Yes, thank you for the chart. I guess right now I will just hope that I am never in a position where I can't continue to feed Amber an optimal diet.
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I guess right now I will just hope that I am never in a position where I can't continue to feed Amber an optimal diet.
I think the topic is a VERY good one. Not only would I like a "back-up" plan for myself, but there are plenty of people out there that...
1. Are owned by cats and can't afford the more pricey foods.
2. Financial circumstances DO often change.
3. Are transitioning from dry to wet...and are often "sticker shocked."
4. Many of the better foods aren't sold at the local pet stores. Not everyone has specialty stores in their area, or wants to buy products online.
5. If I was a cat, living in a shelter, I would rather be in a home... eating an "inferior" wet food.
We had 4 cats, when I learned that "quality" dry was the cause of our male's ER visits of crystals and blockages. The jump to wet food wasn't so bad...especially considering the cost of the ER bills. Add in 3 more felines. Some months aren't so easy.
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OK, so learned some new words today, m-o-l. Next question, how would we go about finding out how much %, is a safe or OK level of salt, sodium and chloride?
I know Blue Wilderness is very low in salt, it is listed very far down at the bottom, and even tho Bump liked it, it had to be approved by his cardiologist at UC Davis, and he did, for the ingredients, and most importantly, the salt content. So if you can find the salt % on BW, we know that is an OK level.
I am way too tired to look it up, have to go to bed, so I can get up for work, and do another 12 hr shift tomorrow, m-o-l. TexasFlag bumpgif
Dallas Cowboys, in first place, in the NFC east, sole possession. usasmile
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Another vote for low-quality wet over high-quality dry. :D
I'm a bit late adding my 2 cents, but Pookie and his sister just couldn't handle dry food, and I'm not going to take the chance on dry again, no matter how good the quality. It's just not worth it. The money I spent in vet bills was ridiculous, and I can't put a price on the peace of mind I get knowing I'm feeding him something that's healthier for him than what I fed him as a kitten.
Here's something to consider regarding adding water to dry food: even if it gets eaten within 5 minutes, the dry takes longer to digest in the stomach. So the bacteria still has time to grow. I don't know if stomach acid would kill the bacteria, but if you have an IBD kitty, for example, that's taking a risk in my opinion.
Just my 2cents ;D
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OK, so learned some new words today, m-o-l. Next question, how would we go about finding out how much %, is a safe or OK level of salt, sodium and chloride?
I know Blue Wilderness is very low in salt, it is listed very far down at the bottom, and even tho Bump liked it, it had to be approved by his cardiologist at UC Davis, and he did, for the ingredients, and most importantly, the salt content. So if you can find the salt % on BW, we know that is an OK level.
I asked Blue Buffalo on their facebook page - they seem to get fast responses on there - it is publically posted and they don't want the questions to get others concerned. It works thumbsup1
Does anyone know how to figure out the salt amount in cat food? Are you supposed to ad the sodium and choloride together. Table salt is NaCl (sodium chloride) so that is why I am assuming you need to add the two.
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Pookie made a good point. I am going to ask my vet about that, since she is the one, that told me to do it.
I know since I am feeding the others wet now, no more stinky poopies, no more throwing up, no more refusing to eat it. So now, I am in a quandry, since the cans are $1.49, and I go thru alot of cans, and then there is Bump, who will only eat the BW dry. :o
Anyhow, thanks Mo! Something kick started them, your post, my mentioning my vet and CNN, m-o-l, got a call back, couldn't have been nicer, even sending me a claim form, that my vet has to fill out, and told me to take the bag back to Pet Smart. I am going to keep a small sample, just in case.......
There might be an issue, they don't want the public to know about, of course they want the bag back, then I have no evidence. Reminds me of when the hotel manager yanked the chore boy out of my hand, he knew what it was, I yanked it back, said my vet needs to see what he chewed up. After I found out, what it really was, told corp. Told them, my next call is to the po-lice, and by the way, my vet has the chore boy. They got real nice then, paid his vet bill $350. Always always, keep the evidence. christmas4 TexasFlag bumpgif
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Bump,
I assume you had some sort of issue with Blue Buffalo?
I know many recommend that brand...and that is fine :) I don't know if Blue still does this, but they used to RECOMMEND (in the directions, right on the bag!) adding water to their dry. I stayed clear of all their foods after seeing that.