Author Topic: Addison's and dogs  (Read 8782 times)

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Offline Pookie

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Addison's and dogs
« on: October 20, 2015, 11:20:48 PM »
I just found this article on Addison's, which mostly pertains to dogs, and wanted to share it.  DeeDee, you're probably already familiar with the information, but I wanted to post this for others as well.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/01/24/how-to-avoid-addisons-disease.aspx
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 07:00:12 PM »
 thumbsup1
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 07:18:42 PM »
One thing I want to note. She mentioned Standard Process Glandular support. This might help a lot if a dog isn't fully Addisonian, meaning their adrenals are still producing SOME.

Once a dog requires the medications mentioned, Florinef, Percorten V, and/or Prednisone, NONE of those Standard Process glandular formulas are going to do anything except raise the cost of treating your dog's Addisons. I checked from more than one source including vets that Vlad doesn't see. Trying to treat your dog by this method alone really can kill them as their other organs break down from the Addison's problem.

Also, if your country has it available, Percorten V is the gold standard treatment for dogs. Florinef was developed for humans and doesn't always work well for a lot of dogs. In most cases, as time goes on, the Florinef dose will have to be raised. (In the countries where Percorten's not carried, some vets in those countries can fill out some forms to get the Percorten for your pet.) The only good thing about Florinef is that you don't have to take your dog back every month to the vet for the Percorten injection--though there are ways around that too if your vet gives out prescriptions.

In my case, we go back every 28 days for the Percorten because he's less expensive than I could do it with a prescription.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:21:51 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 12:05:23 PM »
One thing I want to note. She mentioned Standard Process Glandular support. This might help a lot if a dog isn't fully Addisonian, meaning their adrenals are still producing SOME.

That's actually what I was looking for.  I was thinking about how surgery takes a lot out of a person (my mother had several this year), and had read that it can wear out the adrenals. Which got me to thinking, does surgery (which is stressful to the body) also have an impact on our pets' adrenals?  That's what I was searching for when I found this article.

There are adrenal glandulars for humans, and I was excited to see the article mentioning one for pets.  The Standard Process one looks like it's for dogs, but I didn't see one on their website for cats.  I just wonder if something like that would be helpful to give a dog (or cat) after any surgical procedure, like a dental, spay/neuter, joint surgery, etc., for their recovery.  I'm not saying I would recommend it, but I would be curious if something like that would help.

Thanks for the insights, DeeDee, that once they're on those other meds, a glandular by itself isn't really going to help.  Other than the cost, do you think giving it along with those medications would do any harm?
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 04:36:53 PM »
Look at the top of the page. Look at the top of the page she had a link to, and you'll see "Products." Click on it once and you'll see that Veterinary is separate from the human products. http://www.standardprocess.com/display/2144.spi (You're going to get an error notice.)

For cat products, once you go to the veterinary section, scroll down to the left and put a check-mark in the Feline box.

I'm not sure about the surgery thing. I know stressing the adrenals constantly isn't a good thing, but I'm not sure that consuming adrenal glands from other animals is going to help either. I know you're definitely not supposed to take bovine gland tissue unless you absolutely know the source of it b/c of Mad Cow Disease.

The main problem with using all these things is, you could actually mess up your own--kind of like body builders and steroids. Sooner or later it's going to mess something up. It's just dangerous to mess with hormones of any sort without a Dr's guidance. With a lot of hormones, if you keep on giving it to your body, you can develop Cushings from too much and eventually kill the adrenals and go into Addisons after Cushings overworked them. OR, if you're lucky enough to not develop Cushings, it will make them stop working altogether because the body is getting it elsewhere. That's what I was told when I asked if any of that would have worked if we'd known that he was developing the problem, and would it have stopped him from going into Addisons.

I know a lot of people try that homeopathic way once they have things like Addison's disease, or even before it's full-blown Addison's, but it's really not safe without some kind of guidance from an integrative physician. Most people don't ever know they're "Pre" Addisons. You only find out once things are bad enough for them to see the real problem--which is the effect on the kidneys and the body not being able to get rid of high potassium because of low sodium. Addison's is called "the great pretender" because SO many things go wrong that it looks like anything and everything happening one after the other. Being absolutely sure of a standard dose is another problem with the homeopathic therapies.

It's usually not found unless they go into crisis like Vlad did. And once he went into crisis, he also had High BUN, Creatine and potassium along with low sodium. He also tested positive for pancreatitis on top of all that. So they were looking at kidneys, pancreas, and then adrenals after, but at least the vet there on Sunday finally saw the light from the potassium & sodium. When you can mess up so many organs if homeopathy's wrong, it's really not often done by a lot of people. I'm just more interested in keeping Vlad alive and healthy than I am interested in using him for a guinea pig and risking his life. I never want to see him in crisis EVER again.

And yes, I think it could do harm, because we have to keep charts on how much of the hormone replacement he's getting. Throwing all that into the mix would create a problem with getting it all balanced.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 04:42:39 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 09:40:14 PM »
Thanks, Dee!  You make some great points.  I was actually thinking of it for short-term use after surgery, to help the adrenals recharge, but I agree it would be best to have a veterinarian, or someone who's familiar with using glandulars that way, to advise on the dosage, etc.  I just wondered if anyone had thought to use adrenals that way (short-term, post-op).  I take a supplement like that for adrenal fatigue, and there are also other supplements (vitamin C, B complex, etc.) that can help support the adrenal glands as well.  Maybe it would just be better to give the supplements to pets after a surgery, if it seems the pet is taking a while to get their energy back?  I don't think adding the water-soluble vitamins would do any harm, as long as they're not huge doses, since they'd be excreted in the urine.  But I don't know if anyone's ever tried that.

I did see the feline options on that website, but I didn't see one for adrenals, at least, not like the one for dogs.  Dr. Becker did say that adrenal problems are rare in cats, so maybe there really isn't a need for it.

I do want to clarify, glandulars are not homeopathics.  Glandulars are the actual horomone or gland from the animal and would probably be considered a nutraceutical, or supplement.  Homeopathics are energy healing -- there's no actual substance in the remedy.  That's why you can have a homeopathic remedy made from toxic substances that don't do harm when used for the appropriate symptoms.

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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 10:15:10 PM »
But I have seen the holistic vets claiming to be homeopaths that talk about the glandular and other hormonal based treatments. Maybe tomorrow I'll remember the name of the person.


Edit: I don't know about using it after surgery short-term, I just know I can't do it with Vlad b/c one of the parts of an Addison's dog getting surgery is that, since they can't eat to take their morning prednisone, they have to have a shot of Dex  along with the IV and fluids started before surgery when they get to the vet--to replace their daily prednisone, and to help with the stress of the surgery.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 10:21:39 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 10:24:37 PM »
Will Falconer. He's a holistic vet that is also a homeopath. I've seen something he wrote somewhere (not sure if it was his blog or not) about diseases like Addison's.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 10:53:32 PM »
Now that I think about it more, I'd want to make sure that the pet didn't get a shot of Dex or other steroids after surgery before I gave them anything, or you'd be doubling up on it like you would with Vlad.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2015, 12:32:15 PM »
Will Falconer. He's a holistic vet that is also a homeopath. I've seen something he wrote somewhere (not sure if it was his blog or not) about diseases like Addison's.

He may be thinking of using glandulars and homeopathic remedies together, and may be a familiar with those things, but I just wanted to clarify that glandulars are not homeopathic remedies.  That's not to say there isn't a homeopathic remedy (or remedies) for Cushing's, Addison's or adrenal fatigue.  There may be, but giving a glandular is not the same thing.

Thanks for the information about Addison dogs and surgery!
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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2015, 03:21:15 PM »
This was in another thread, but Pookie wanted me to post it in here too:


Quote from: Pookie on October 24, 2015, 02:16:39 PM
Quote
He seems to believe that this is a genetic issue, but I can't help but wonder if at least some of it is diet-related, since the pet may have been eating a less-than-ideal diet for most/all of it's life. 


They've known for a while now that Addison's has a genetic component to it. That's why so many GOOD breeders get really, really upset when they get their first Addisonian offspring. There is research going on right now in Cali, NC, and in the UK. Standard Poodles are really bad about it, but so are West Highland Whites, Portuguese Water dogs, Rottweilers, and a few other breeds that seem to have it occurring higher than average than other breeds.

Some of these breeds are the ones that are being researched in some of the studies. There's talk with some in the BRTCA (breed club) of having Black Russians like Vlad added to the research, but the BRTCA has to come up with grant money for it.

I talked to one researcher in North Carolina, and he'd be more than willing to take Vlad's blood on the side, but I have to pay for everything to get it to him. Let's just say that it's not going to be happening right now at the moment so close to the giant bills we've already had. If he were a Standard Poodle, then it would all be free because their breed club is paying for the grant. http://www.ncstatevets.org/addisonsstudy/

The reason I contacted him was b/c of a notice like this one that was confused by other people: http://www.akcchf.org/research/participate-in-research/Samples-Needed-for-Addison-s-Disease-Study.html

The confusion came about where it says "all dogs" before the "Standard Poodle," so people in the BRTCA thought it was for any dog. I'm not too worried about the BRTCA coming up with a grant, b/c if they find the gene in one breed, then they'll know where to look in every breed, and a test can be developed for breeding stock.

The Estrogen thing. I don't think Vlad's adrenals can make estrogen at all anymore. If it can't make aldosterone to regulate the potassium and sodium, and it can't make cortisol, then I don't think it can make estrogen at all either. I'll have to ask about that on the 6th at his next appointment. I'll put it on the question list right now.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2015, 03:11:10 PM »
Thanks, DeeDee.  FYI, I just finished re-reading Dr. Plechner's book, "Pets at Risk" and he has a chapter for breeders.  I probably skipped that chapter the first time I read it  :-[, but he says that animals with the genetic defect (hormonal imbalance) can be bred, depending on how severe the defect is and what the conditions are, if I understood him correctly.  His book includes the test to determine if the animal has the defect or not, and it can also be done on the puppies or kittens so a breeder will know if the animal being sold will be healthy.  In fact, he recommends people have their new puppy/kitten tested, so they can decide if they want to return the animal to the breeder and get a different one.

Personally, I find his book better than his website when it comes to explaining the imbalance, and you can probably get it online for a low price.  I just wanted to add this information here in case you wanted to share it with any breeders that you know.

I hope this helps!
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2015, 04:46:34 PM »
His book includes the test to determine if the animal has the defect or not, and it can also be done on the puppies or kittens so a breeder will know if the animal being sold will be healthy.

If you don't mind, what's the name of the test? For instance, BRTs are already given these tests:

OFA: Hips
OFA: Elbows
OFA: Heart
OFA: Patella
OFA: Thyroid
OFA: Cerf <---this is eye disorders & the certification isn't good for the life of the dog. I forgot how long the cerf lasts though.
UCD & OFA Hyperuricosuria <---this is for the genetic urate bladder stones
OFA: JLPP <----this is for Juvenile Laryngeal Paralysis & Polyneuropathy that kills them by the time they're 4 mths old.
OFA: Dentition Database - Full Dentition
OFA: DNA Profile

Now they're looking for the Addison's gene at several schools, and I just found out today that, back in 2012, they also found a gene for a genetic form of epilepsy:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120323205337.htm

I'm not sure why they don't test for that epilepsy gene, or if there's even an actual test for it yet. But there should be by now. However, it lists epilepsy as a problem, just like Addison's, in BRTs here:

http://www.brtca.org/health.html
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2015, 09:51:52 PM »
If you don't mind, what's the name of the test? For instance, BRTs are already given these tests:

He has 4 versions of the test:

Quote
1.  The basic E-I One test measures the levels of critical hormone and immune factors:  cortisol, total estrogen, the thyroid hormones T-3 and T-4, and IgA, IgM, and IgG antibodies.

2.  The E-I Two test is a combination of the E-I One test plus the standard complete blood count (CBC) and blood chemistry panels.  This broader test provides a comprehensive picture of how endocrine-immune imbalances may negatively impact blood cells and organs.

3.  The E-I Three test measures only hormone levels and is intended for young puppies and kittens only.

4.  The E-I Four test adds Von Willebrand's disease factor to the basic E-I One test. 

 - I think his website may also refer to the basic test as the "Plechner test," but I could be wrong. 

 - For kittens and puppies, the test can be done as young as 6 - 8 weeks old.

BTW, he's found correcting this imbalance can also reduce or eliminate epileptic seizures, too.

I hope this helps!
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Addison's and dogs
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2015, 10:45:09 PM »
Thank you so much, Pookie! Your help is GREATLY appreciated.

I've made a note of this in my "Vlad's Addison's" folder. I seriously doubt we ever get any puppies ever again at our ages. I'm almost 54 now, and Vlad's not yet four. If he lives a full life, I'll have hit 60 by then. I don't think I'll ever be without a dog as long as I live in my own home, but we've already talked about only adopting seniors after this. That way our sons wouldn't have to put up with them forever if they end up with them, but we've got a pact. If any of our pets end up needing a new home, they'll stay in the family.

Maybe I'll get a retired Greyhound. Something I know that the other people in our sons' families could handle if something happens.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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