Author Topic: Let's talk about B-12  (Read 5924 times)

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Offline Middle Child

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Let's talk about B-12
« on: July 30, 2011, 09:32:32 PM »
This quote was lifted from another thread:

I finally picked up the 2nd edition of "Could It Be B12?"  I have the 1st edition already and just started reading the 2nd edition.  I HIGHLY recommend this book (it's written in a way that the average person can understand--no medical background needed).  The problems caused by B12 deficiency are astounding.

Just some background:  I was looking into an alternative therapy to help Pookie's sister and had a book about a similar treatment.  In it, the author went into great detail about what each vitamin does for the body.  Unfortunately, things got worse for my little girl and I could no longer take care of her, but then my cousin started having a lot of health problems.  I checked the book and it seemed like these things were related to B12 deficiency, so I then bought the 1st ed. of Could It Be B12.  The authors also have a website:  http://b12awareness.org/ and Finnlacey mentions this book on her site, ibdkitties.net.  B12 deficiency can affect our kitties, too.  Pookie's sister started smacking her lips and burping about a year before I gave her up, which started the journey of looking at alternative medicine.  A month after I  gave her up, she had a siezure (I'm leaving out a lot of details here, but it's possible there was something going on neurologically).  About 6 months after I let her go, Pookie began the burping/lip smacking.  By then I'd read this book and I started adding a B12 supplement to his food.  Knock wood, after 4 months, he's not burping or smacking his lips anymore.  It also seems his stools are even smaller than before, which makes me think it's helping him absorb more from his food.

No, I'm not a medical professional, but when I was in middle school, I would have fainting and dizzy spells.  Tests found nothing wrong.  The school nurse recommended niacinimide (a form of B3), which did the trick.  So I know from personal experience how a vitamin issue can really cause problems.

Sorry for the long post, and I do read less "heavy" stuff, but I really wanted to share this with everyone.  And it IS "what I'm reading."   :D

Pookie can you tell us more about the B-12 you are giving him?

I gave B complex and B-12 shots to my little CRF girlie for her last few months. (she had CRF, megacolon, hyperthyroid, high blood pressure, arthritis, heart murmur and stroke)  It really helped her appetite and general well being. Originally the vet had me giving the shots once every two weeks, but I noticed the benefit seemed to wear off by the tenth day so vet approved the shots for every 10 days.

I wonder if adding B-12 supplement would improve the appetite of my senior seizure kitty who has become even more finicky than ever, and the kitten who does seem to have nutrient absorbance issues.

Offline Pookie

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2011, 04:49:39 PM »
DOH!  Doh1 I started a new thread before seeing this one!   Doh1  So here's what I posted in the other "new" thread (Lola, feel free to delete that one if you want, to avoid duplication/confusion).

I'm reading the 2nd ed. of "Could It Be B12?" by Sally M. Pacholok, R.N., B.S.N. and Jeffrey J. Stuart, D.O. and really recommend it.  B12 is a very important, water-soluble (you pee out what you don't need) vitamin and it's ONLY found in animal products.  So imagine how critical it is for our carnivores?  To quote the book, "B12 wears many hats, playing key roles in the health of your nerves, your brain, your blood, your immune system, as well as in the formation of DNA . . . "  This vitamin is absorbed in the small intestine, so IBD kitties in particular may benefit from supplementation since they may not be absorbing what they need from their food.  Finnlacey has information on her site, ibdkitties.net.  Cats that develop diabetic neuropathy may also benefit from B12 supplementation (see this fascinating story about Jasper:  http://laurieulrich.com/jasper/).

Here's something else I find interesting:  "Toxins such as mercury interfere with B12's ability to cross the blood-brain barrier and reach the neurons where it's needed."  Which leads me to wonder if every time our cats get vaccinated (other than Purevax, which I think doesn't contain mercury, but not 100% sure), the vaccine is preventing the B12 from getting to our kitties' brain?  The book does mention (regarding pediatric immunizations/vaccinations) to avoid such products containing mercury, or "Using high-dose B12 pre- and post-vaccination may be another option."  Now remember, this is about human children, but I wonder if this could also apply to cats.

I give Pookie a B12 sublingual by SuperiorSource (I take it myself as well).  It's 5,000 mcg w/with 800 mcg of B6 (folic acid -- the 2 work with each other) and the only other ingredients are lactose (milk), acacia gum and natural flavors.  I know those aren't exactly ideal, but I wanted a minimum of ingredients and the pills are really small, so I don't think there's much of those ingredients included).  I crush it up and mix it into his food after warming.  I started giving it to him daily in April and in May cut back to several times a week.

I think injections might be better than pills for the kitten since she has absorption issues.  For the other kitty, loss of appetite can be a symptom of B12 deficiency (among other things, I'm sure), so supplementation may help.  To quote the book, (regarding deficiency) "Your gastrointestinal system suffers as well, because your body can't make enough cells to replace your intestinal lining efficiently, so you may experience diarrhea, nausea, or severe appetite loss."  My opinion?  Adding the supplement couldn't hurt.  Since it's a water-soluble vitamin, you can't overdose on it--the body excretes what it doesn't use, so it may be worth a try.

I hope this helps!  Thoughts?  Comments?  Wise cracks?   
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 05:41:05 PM »
Wow!    :-*
No wise cracks, that's for sure!! 

I never knew this, either  :o


 
Quote
B12 is a very important, water-soluble (you pee out what you don't need) vitamin and it's ONLY found in animal products.  So imagine how critical it is for our carnivores?  To quote the book, "B12 wears many hats, playing key roles in the health of your nerves, your brain, your blood, your immune system, as well as in the formation of DNA . . . "
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2011, 09:21:26 AM »
"So imagine how critical it is for our carnivores."  That sentence should have read, "imagine how critical it is for our carnivores to get an appropriate, meat-based diet."

Forgot to mention:

1.  Finnlacey's site (www.ibdkitties.net) also include a list of supplements, including B12, that she's checked out to make sure the ingredients are ok for kitties.  I think the one I use is on there.

2.  Antacids block B12 absorption.  Stomach acid is an important part of the body's ability in breaking down B12.  I know some folks give their kitties Pepcid to help with nausea, and in those cases, personally I would suggest also supplementing B12 in some way.  Since IBD kitties can have nausea issues, the best way would be B12 injections, so you're bypassing the GI tract which is probably compromised anyway.  Just my 2 cents.   2cents

3.  MC, you had mentioned seizures in one kitty.  A month after I gave up Pookie's sister, she had a seizure which resulted in blindness, an inability to walk or lift her head.  She was almost put down but began responding to light so they "spared" her.  But all of that led me to look back at all of her symptoms differently (lip smacking/burping, also she no longer got along with Pookie) and wonder if there was something neurological going on.  I don't have the book with me now, but I can check to see if it mentions a connection between seizures and B12 deficiency.

4.  MC also mentioned high blood pressure and stroke.  B12 deficiency can affect the blood pressure.  Check out the table of contents in the book to get an idea of the many effects it has and the many masks it wears: http://www.amazon.com/Could-Be-B12-Epidemic-Misdiagnoses/dp/1884995691/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312207440&sr=8-1#_

5.  Yep, CC, ONLY in animal products.  That’s why it’s so important for vegetarians and vegans to supplement.  I personally wouldn’t be confident in a supplement that claims it doesn’t have animal products in it, because B12 is only made in the guts of animals, and (per the book) has a trace element of cobalt in it (hence the name “cobalamin”).  Plants don’t need B12 so they don’t need to make it.  And when you think about it, all the issues deficiency causes affect systems that plants don’t have, e.g. nervous, cardiovascular, etc.  So if our kitties are being fed an inappropriate diet loaded with plant-based protein, imagine the impact on their health.  :o
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 08:15:15 AM »
Wanted to clarify, the B12 supplement I give Pookie is methylcobalamin.  B12 comes in different forms including cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin and I forget the other one.   :-[  But the book I'm reading recommends the methylcobalamin for several reasons, and if I remember correctly, it's the form that's the easiest for the body to use/absorb.  So I use that one.

MC, I checked the book last night and seizures can be a symptom of B12 deficiency.

I hope this helps!
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Offline Lola

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 12:43:30 AM »
More info concerning B12 and felines:

snip...

Quote
Where does vitamin B12 come from? It’s found in meat and dairy products. Vegans should consider vitamin B12 supplementation. Of course, my interest is in cats and if they’re fed properly (recognizing they are true carnivores) they should be getting vitamin B12 in their diet, but most commercial foods and homemade recipes supplement all the B-vitamins, just in case. The B-vitamins are water-soluble and, as I noted, generally not stored by the body, so there’s no known risk of overdose.

Full article found here:
http://meowmeowmom.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/be-true-to-b12/
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 02:45:29 PM »
I finally finished the B12 book.  While it's about B12 deficiency in humans, as I read it I kept wondering how much of this information can also be applied to cats.  So here are things that caught my attention:

-  CRF:  Chronic Renal Failure patients apparently have a high mortality rate, mostly due to cardiovascular disease, one of the signs of which is high homocysteine levels.  B12 plays a very important role in keeping homocysteine levels down.  Just for fits and giggles, I checked Dr. Hodgkins’ book, “Your Cat” and she states “Cats receiving fluid supplementation as part of their CRD treatment protocol should have potassium and B-vitamin supplementation as well.  This is because the increased fluid flow through the kidneys in these patients can cause excessive loss of potassium and the water-soluble B vitamins from the body.”  (pg. 222)

-  Spirulina.  After the Wellness recall earlier this year, which was due to low amounts of a B vitamin in the mix, I began adding spirulina to Pookie’s food (spirulina is an algae that is supposedly very high in B vitamins).  I didn’t do it for very long, and don’t remember why I stopped, but I doubt I’ll be adding it back in because while reading this book I discovered that while “laboratory tests showed significant amounts of the vitamin in these plants” [meaning spirulina, tempeh (fermented soy) and nori (a seaweed)]  . . . “Newer reseach . . . shows that the tests are primarily detecting “pseudo-vitamin B12” analogues that may actually block the uptake of real B12.”  (pg. 123-124)

“One consequence of an immune system damaged by low B12 is cancer.”  Pg. 152.  B12 deficiency “also puts you at higher risk for certain cancers . . . Pernicious anemia, the classic form of vitamin B12 deficiency, is a strong risk for stomach cancer . . .”   pg. 22.  This is just speculation on my part, but I wonder if there is an increased risk in IBD kitties or kitties with other GI problems, because they’re not absorbing the B12 as well, which may make them deficient and compromise their immune system.

“B12 deficiency appears to make the body react abnormally to vaccines . . .”  A study done on elderly hospital patients who were vaccinated for pneumonia showed that those who were not B12 deficient had higher antibody levels after vaccination, than those who were deficient.  “Moreover, since any vaccination can adversely affect individuals with impaired immune systems, we speculate that B12 deficiency may play a key role in some of the thousands of severe reactions to immunizations that occur each year.  Individuals who are B12 deficient are vulnerable to adverse reactions to immunizations, because their immune systems are impaired.”  Pg. 152

-  Avoid using vaccines that contain mercury (thimerosal), because it interferes “with folate-dependent methylcobalamin by inhibiting the biosynthesis of the active form of vitamin B12 (methylcobalamin).  Using high-dose B12 pre- and post-vaccination may be another option.”   Pg. 255.  I’m not going to pretend I understand what that means, but it certainly isn’t good.  Many of the vaccines used in animals contain thimerosal and adjuvants.  If possible, please be sure to use a vaccine like PureVax that does not contain these things.  Or, if that’s not an option, perhaps ask for a B12 shot before and after vaccination as mentioned above.  Just my 2 cents.  2cents

-  Hyperthyroid:  Pernicious anemia is an auto-immune disease that runs in families and can be a cause of B12 deficiency.  “People with this condition are at increased risk of acquiring other autoimmune diseases, such as thyroid autoimmune disorders . . .”  “Other autoimmune disorders associated with pernicious anemia include . . . hypoparathyroidism . . .”  pg. 159.  Okay, I’m not saying cats have pernicious anemia, but I do find it interesting that there is a possible link between B12 deficiency and thyroid disease.

- “Diabetic neuropathy mimics B12 deficiency neuropathy.”  Pg. 183.  Check this out:  http://laurieulrich.com/jasper/

-  Nitrous Oxide, or “laughing gas,” which is a common anesthesia, inactivates B12 in the body.  I have no idea if it’s used in vet offices for surgeries or dental cleanings, but it might be a good idea to ask, and if it is, to request a different anesthetic.

“Microwaving partially destroys B12 . . .” pg 255.  So for folks like me who were warming their kitty’s canned food in the microwave, keep in mind that you may be destroying at least one (if not more) important nutrient in the process.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 05:54:24 PM »
I forgot to add in the bit on cancer:  "Improving your methylation status after a cancer develops will improve the health of all of your cells, but unfortunately that includes cancerous cells as well as normal ones."  So if you have cancer, adding B12 supplementation will improve the health of the cancer cells as well as the non-cancerous ones.  It's better to improve your B12 prior before cancer develops.  I'm thinking this applies to kitties as well, but that's just my opinion.
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Offline Lola

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 05:19:16 PM »
I can't imagine reading an entire book on B12...  Bumpurr1  Sooooo, thanks for sharing!  You really brought up a lot of good (and helpful) points! 
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Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 06:09:00 PM »
Yet another reason to feed a fresh, raw, prey-modeled diet to our littlest family members.  thumbsup1

AC
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Offline Lola

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 06:14:09 PM »
Yet another reason to feed a fresh, raw, prey-modeled diet to our littlest family members.  thumbsup1

AC

Could I hire you for about a week?  If I don't "get it" by then...there is no hope for me. 
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Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 08:14:08 PM »
Could I hire you for about a week?  If I don't "get it" by then...there is no hope for me. 

Any help I am able to provide is my pleasure. If (or when) you are ready to make the switch pm me your phone number and a good time to call and we'll talk. (If you read here and here before the call, it'll help focus on any specific questions you may have.)

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 08:54:13 PM »
Thanks for the info Pookie.  I gave my CRF kitty B-12 and B-complex shots every 10 days.  They really helped her a lot.

I'll be rereading these posts to process them more when I am less tired. :)

Offline Pookie

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 11:18:19 AM »
As it happens, Dr. Becker had an article in her newsletter not that long ago about anesthesia for pet surgery.  http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/09/08/when-pet-go-under-anesthesia.aspx  I did a really quick look at the 2 she mentions and Sevoflurane, which is an inhaled anesthesia, is combined with nitrous oxide (according to Wikipedia).  I didn't get to look at the others on the list she linked to, but I have a sneaky suspicion that any inhaled anesthesia may be combined with nitrous oxide, which inactivates B12 in the body.  So it might be a good idea to have the vet give a B12 (methylcobalamin, so the body doesn't have to convert it) injection after surgery "just in case."  Hey, it couldn't hurt!

MC, I'm so glad to hear the B12 and B-complex shots helped.  That's wonderful!  Thanks for sharing!
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Offline Gump and Co

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Re: Let's talk about B-12
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2011, 09:35:46 PM »
Hi Pookie, Lola and all  :)

Some interesting information on vitamin B-12. I started giving B-12 injections to Gump last winter after he got sick and was diagnosed with pancreatitis; he was also tested for cobalamin (B-12) and his levels were low. I was encouraged about giving the B-12 injections as it seemed like this was a great supplement without issues of toxicity being that it's water-soluble, etc. But then I was reading this article: http://www.holisticat.com/cat-herbs.html, and found this quote and now I have some concern about giving injectable B -12 or at least a lot of it:

"One of the most dangerous is alcohol which can damage the liver and pancreas as well as cause Heniz body anemia in cats.  Alcohol is quite commonly used as a preservative in medicines e.g. liquid antibiotics such as Clindamycin, injectable cyanocobalamin (B12), and in herbal as well as homeopathic tinctures.  If the medicine/herb/homeopathic remedy is critical to the cat's health, then one has no choice but to weigh that benefit against associated risk.  In such situations, if at all possible, look for pill/tablet/capsule in lieu of the drug or herb or remedy."

So apparently injectable B-12 has preservatives or a preservative, namely some form of alcohol (when I first read this article, it was stated as benzyl alchohol, but now it is just 'alcohol'). I am now giving Gump vitamin B complex from a capsule in his wet food. I am still giving him B-12 injections, maybe once a month or so. I did send this information to Lisa at ibdkitties.net (Finnlacey). I'd like to try to get some more information about how harmful the preservative in the injectable B-12 could be. This just makes me less excited about the injectable form. But I still think B-12 and B vitamins are very beneficial supplements. The problem is that kitties with IBD and GI disease can't absorb the oral form and really need the injections.... :-\

 kittybutterfly

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