Parenting-Furkids

Dogs => Dog Food And Nutrition => Wet vs Dry => Topic started by: Lola on December 10, 2011, 06:13:18 PM

Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on December 10, 2011, 06:13:18 PM
Thing is.... she's still feeding kibble to the dog...  Doh1


I wouldn't mind reading some discussion/info concerning dogs eating kibble in the dog forum area.  Apparently, I've missed the boat in that area.  ??  I feed our dogs kibble and wet...
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: FurMonster Mom on December 12, 2011, 01:53:06 PM
I wouldn't mind reading some discussion/info concerning dogs eating kibble in the dog forum area.  Apparently, I've missed the boat in that area.  ??  I feed our dogs kibble and wet...

I am simply of the opinion that dog kibble is not made any better than cat kibble.  As such, I don't think it's any better for dogs than cat kibble is for cats.

Dogs aren't any less carnivorous than cats, and they are not omnivores.  Dogs are carnivores (http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html).  The very small amount of amylase in a dog's system is a survival mechanism.  Wolves have been known to dig up tubers to get themselves through a difficult winter, but is pretty rare and as soon as there is more prey, they will leave the roots alone.  They thrive on meat.  The meat to filler ratio in many dog kibbles is just as bad as it is in cat kibble.  It is, however, a bit better in wet foods.  And of course you know I believe raw is the best option.  ;)

Just my  2cents   doggif
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Amber on December 12, 2011, 04:20:12 PM
While I believe raw meat is best for any carnivore, obligate or opportunistic, I don't think that feeding any wet is better than any dry for dogs, as it seems to be for cats.

Unlike cats, dogs are not desert animals and have a proper thirst drive, so the risk of the running around chronically dehydrated is low, thereby lowering the risk of urinary problems. Where cats absolutely cannot pull nutrients from plant sources, dogs can; they just can't get them as efficiently from plants as from meat. For example, dogs can utilize beta carotene for vitamin A. Cats cannot. If and when I own a dog, he or she will be eating the exact same thing I am feeding Amber as long as I am able to give it to them. But when I am talking to people about what they feed, moisture is the first thing I consider, followed by low carbs. With dog owners, the first thing I mention is the quality of the ingredients, followed by meat content.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on December 12, 2011, 04:41:43 PM
I didn't think dry for dogs was an "issue," (like it is for felines) for the reasons Amber stated.  Also, my dogs have molars that allow them to chew their food!
I feed quality (as quality as a manufactured food can be) wet and dry.  I assumed  :o dogs needed both.  (Not sure why I assumed that.)

Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Shadow on December 12, 2011, 07:38:41 PM
Cat or Dog kibble they both are prone to recalls, so many happening again lately.
If I ever get a dog, its getting Raw right off the bat. :-*
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on December 13, 2011, 09:48:57 AM
If I had known about all the BS concerning the pet food industry years ago.... I would have NO pets.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Pookie on December 13, 2011, 10:22:53 AM
This is perfect timing, because I wanted to ask:  is there a dog version of catinfo.org, that anyone knows of?  Something as comprehensive and possibly run by a knowledgeable vet?  I sent a friend of mine a bunch of information regarding vaccinosis in cats, but she has a dog and I don't know how useful the info was that I sent.  A site like Dr. Pierson's, which covers nutrition, vaccination, etc. would be great.

Thanks!

PS.  If I had known the b.s. concerning vets, and how little they actually know about certain things, I don't think I'd have pets, either.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on December 13, 2011, 06:10:58 PM
This is perfect timing, because I wanted to ask:  is there a dog version of catinfo.org, that anyone knows of?  Something as comprehensive and possibly run by a knowledgeable vet?  I sent a friend of mine a bunch of information regarding vaccinosis in cats, but she has a dog and I don't know how useful the info was that I sent.  A site like Dr. Pierson's, which covers nutrition, vaccination, etc. would be great.

Thanks!

PS.  If I had known the b.s. concerning vets, and how little they actually know about certain things, I don't think I'd have pets, either.

I have yet to find one.  If anyone does, I would LOVE to know about it. 
Title: Re: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: FurMonster Mom on December 16, 2011, 12:37:43 PM
*sigh*

Did anyone actually click the link in my post?

The Myths of Raw Feeding (http://rawfed.com/myths/) is a comprehensive, thorough set of articles written by a zoological biologist as well as a few veterinarians.

Yes, it is heavy reading.
Yes, it is canted to raw feeding.

But here's the thing... even if you are still not sold on raw feeding, you can still glean a LOT of information about the biology and physiology of carnivores.

Lola, huny, a dog's molars are NOT for CHEWING.  They are NOT flat.  They are pointed, and their jaws move only up and down.... their jaws are not made for chewing and grinding.  A dogs jaws and molars are structured for crushing and scissoring.

And folks may look at the site and say, "But it hasn't been updated since 2007".  That's because the information doesn't need to be updated.  Since it is based on biology and physiology, barring some cataclysmic evolutionary event, the information is not going to change.

Please
Please take the time to go through each and every myth on that list. 
Take one a day if you need to... or one a week... whatever it takes.


Now, to the wet vs. dry question. 
My personal opinion is that wet food is better for dogs for many of the same reasons it is better for cats.
I don't understand the logic that says cats need wet, but dry is okay for dogs.  I'm sorry, I just don't.
To my mind, just because dogs will drink water on the side, doesn't mean they need it any less in their meals.
A moisture rich meal increases bio-availability, whereas a dry meal is more difficult to digest and puts strain on all the organs.
Also, dog kibble is not made any better than cat kibble... It's still full of useless fillers, and it's still cooked beyond recognition, and they still have to add in nutrients after the fact.

 2cents
"And that's all I can say about that".

.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on December 16, 2011, 01:04:30 PM
FurMonsterMom,
I didn't notice your link.  Creature of habit...blue = link.  I WILL go read it.
Also, thanks for your input!!!!!  

I know I have been lead to believe mannnnnny (WRONG) things for a LOT of years concerning feeding our pets.  There is a lot of myths or out right misinformation/lies to wade through.  

I concentrated on the felines for so long (and not the dogs), because of fairly current feline health issues that were caused by dry kibble.  
The dogs ended up on the back burner...so to speak...because there was no obvious current health issues.  AND...I was still of the thinking...meat main ingredient...no grains or fillers...good to go.  

NEVER feel like you are a broken record.  Repeat yourself over and over and over.  You never know WHO is reading WHAT post.  Also, for some people, it takes the reading of the same thing a bazillion of times for the info to "click."  
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on December 23, 2011, 07:41:31 AM
Okay, I got it.  Finally.
The flat molars I THOUGHT I saw in my dogs' mouths...don't exist.   

Furmonster,
You posted a link to the following website, but this particular one narrows down the facts.  (For those of us that are slower at catching on to the facts.)
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

No dry for dogs or cats.
Title: Re: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: FurMonster Mom on December 23, 2011, 01:35:57 PM
There are also more excellent pictures here (http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal5.html) (scroll down).

Apparently, at one point Second Chance Ranch posted an article about all the dangers of raw feeding (it's long since been taken down).  Ms. Kuhen wrote a 5 page rebuttal to it.... yes, 5 pages! oy.

It drives me nuts that veterinarians still perpetuate the myth that dogs are omnivores.  Thing is, you'll usually (though, not always) find these statements on some pet food related site or article.   bangshead

I am grateful that more people are getting on board with the idea that cats (and ferrets!) are obligate carnivores, but I can't help feeling that our carnivorous doggy friends are getting the short shrift sometimes.  The irony to me is, there are a lot of dog owners out there who have been raw feeding for decades.  When I started looking into feeding my cats a raw diet, most of the sites I came across were for dogs.  Pierson's site was the only one (at the time) that was specifically targeted for cats.

I understand that not everyone is going to feed raw.  Lots of folks have their reasons. 
I just don't want one of those reasons to be because of misinformation.

okay... I'll get off my soapbox now.

 :-*
.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Pookie on March 29, 2013, 02:47:51 PM
I'm bumping this thread because last night I ran into someone from work at the specialty pet food store I go to.  She has a beautiful boxer (total sweetheart) and he's having food tolerance issues.  I gave her the card I carry with links to catinfo, etc., and pointed out the link to our forum, saying there are very helpful folks here and lots of good information.  I did ask what she feeds and recommended avoiding kibble.  For price reasons, she can't feed only canned, and she's afraid to feed raw (and I can totally understand both issues).

I did suggest to her maybe feeding dry in the morning and canned in the evening, as they digest at different rates.  Then on my way home, I began second-guessing myself.  I would think that the "dry takes longer to digest than wet food" applies to dogs just like it does in cats, since both are carnivores.

Now, to the wet vs. dry question. 
My personal opinion is that wet food is better for dogs for many of the same reasons it is better for cats.
I don't understand the logic that says cats need wet, but dry is okay for dogs.  I'm sorry, I just don't.
To my mind, just because dogs will drink water on the side, doesn't mean they need it any less in their meals.
A moisture rich meal increases bio-availability, whereas a dry meal is more difficult to digest and puts strain on all the organs.
Also, dog kibble is not made any better than cat kibble... It's still full of useless fillers, and it's still cooked beyond recognition, and they still have to add in nutrients after the fact.

Thanks, FMM.  That's what I've been thinking, and having you say that helps a lot.  I think I keep questioning myself because canines didn't come from the same dry climate that cats did, so I assUme they have a lot more flexibility and then confuse myself in thinking the same "rules" don't apply.  But I guess the bottom line is, regardless of what climate they evolved in, both are carnivores.  While canids may have a little more flexibility when it comes to eating some plants, they are carnivores and the dry vs. wet rules apply to them as much as they do to cats.  At least, that's my take on it.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Lola on March 29, 2013, 04:06:21 PM
Kibble is Kibble is STILL Kibble!
By Dr Jeannie Thomason


http://thewholedog.org/artkibble.html
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Pookie on March 29, 2013, 05:11:14 PM
Thanks, Lola.  I know cost is an issue for this person, so I'm not going to push, though I think I will suggest trying raw chicken gizzards now and then as they are SO inexpensive.  But it's up to her.

Is it safe to ASSuME that wet is more filling for dogs than dry?  It's that way for cats, so my guess is it's the same for dogs.  (Why do I keep second-guessing myself???)  She may be thinking that the cost is an issue, not knowing that she wouldn't have to feed as much, but maybe she does and truly can't afford it.

She is also taking the dog to a holistic vet, and they tend to be more knowledgeable, so hopefully that vet will also be able to help.

Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: FurMonster Mom on March 29, 2013, 05:46:28 PM
Is it safe to ASSuME that wet is more filling for dogs than dry?

Not sure if the satisfaction effect would be due to the wet vs. dry factor.  I would lean more to the theory that it's because wet food may be generally higher in protein.  That is a theory, based on my own assumption.  lol   But if true, it makes more sense, since protein is what is most satisfying to a carnivore.   :)

Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: DeeDee on March 29, 2013, 06:42:20 PM
I'm not convinced the canned is any better for them than kibble. Barkly won't eat canned food either. Not even the Wellness 95% meat kind. I guess it's good that he refuses the prescription foods when he's sick too.

We'd have had some really expensive experiments when we first got him if it hadn't have been for Danny being willing to eat it. After buying the Solid Gold a couple of days ago, I'm over with experimenting with anything at all anymore.

I'll just feed him the raw he wants for his main food, with the 2 kibbles that he actually will eat for snacks to keep him eating it for emergencies. He's a better hold-out than I am, and it's just too expensive to watch it ruin in his bowl.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Pookie on March 29, 2013, 06:46:20 PM
Not sure if the satisfaction effect would be due to the wet vs. dry factor.  I would lean more to the theory that it's because wet food may be generally higher in protein.  That is a theory, based on my own assumption.  lol   But if true, it makes more sense, since protein is what is most satisfying to a carnivore.   :)

Makes sense to me!  Thanks!
Title: Re: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 10, 2017, 01:25:28 PM
There are also more excellent pictures here (http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal5.html) (scroll down).

Apparently, at one point Second Chance Ranch posted an article about all the dangers of raw feeding (it's long since been taken down).  Ms. Kuhen wrote a 5 page rebuttal to it.... yes, 5 pages! oy.

It drives me nuts that veterinarians still perpetuate the myth that dogs are omnivores.  Thing is, you'll usually (though, not always) find these statements on some pet food related site or article.   bangshead

I am grateful that more people are getting on board with the idea that cats (and ferrets!) are obligate carnivores, but I can't help feeling that our carnivorous doggy friends are getting the short shrift sometimes.  The irony to me is, there are a lot of dog owners out there who have been raw feeding for decades.  When I started looking into feeding my cats a raw diet, most of the sites I came across were for dogs.  Pierson's site was the only one (at the time) that was specifically targeted for cats.

I understand that not everyone is going to feed raw.  Lots of folks have their reasons. 
I just don't want one of those reasons to be because of misinformation.

okay... I'll get off my soapbox now.

 :-*
.

Addressing the point in bold, how about vets who still insist that kibble cleans the teeth?  I'm just now getting all of my pets off kibble, but I have never believed this story.  It makes about as much sense as telling a person to clean his or her teeth with Fritos.   ::)
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Middle Child on December 10, 2017, 04:20:29 PM
Addressing the point in bold, how about vets who still insist that kibble cleans the teeth?  I'm just now getting all of my pets off kibble, but I have never believed this story.  It makes about as much sense as telling a person to clean his or her teeth with Fritos.   ::)

I know, it's maddening isn't it?  Infuriating.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 16, 2017, 07:29:29 AM
Since I'm already writing about my experience as I transition my cats from kibble to wet (done) to raw, I thought I might as well share some news about my two dogs, as well.

I adopted a little Pomeranian last February.  He had, for some reason I have yet to understand, had a couple of previous homes and been through a dog rescue, as well.  He came to me with a bag of Pedigree and a bunch of equally junky treats, which I promptly threw away. 

This little guy is a picky eater (I think his last owner let him get away with eating mostly treats.)  He also seemed to have a sensitive tummy, as he was having frequent runny poos, to the point that I was having to wash his bottom every other day or so.  I tried any number of "good" kibbles, and figured the problem was with the dog, not the food, as my Chihuahua has a cast iron stomach and has never had diarrhea in her life.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I finally settled on a kibble that was supposed to be safe for either a cat or a dog, as I sometimes found my cats eating the dogs' food, and didn't want them to end up getting sick as a result.  Resigned myself to frequent washing of Bandit's bottom. 

Then, one day, both cats and dogs decided they didn't want kibble anymore.  Started feeding the cats some canned I still had around from the last time I tried to get them off the junk food, and offering the dogs some frozen, human-grade dog food, which I had offered them before, but was afraid to use, because I thought it would make the poo problem worse. 

It didn't.  This all started a bit over two weeks ago, iirc, and since I took away the kibble, my Pom has not had a nasty poo one single time.  It's a lovely change, and I'm sure he feels better.  Even the Chi with the cast-iron tummy is pooping less, and it's less stinky.

They'll be started on raw, too, just as soon as I get the cats switched over.  I still have enough good of the good dog food to last for a couple more weeks, and by then, I should feel comfortable enough to take on a new project.  I'll probably start offering them bites of raw before then, when I am making the cats' food, to get them used to the idea. 

Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but no, kibble is not okay.  I knew it before, now I am a total believer.     
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Middle Child on December 16, 2017, 08:00:34 AM
bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

You rock Catgirl!

PS I was actually wondering what you feed your dogs.  I am thrilled to know they are going raw too!
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 16, 2017, 08:48:30 AM
bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

You rock Catgirl!

PS I was actually wondering what you feed your dogs.  I am thrilled to know they are going raw too!

If I still needed more reasons to ditch the kibble, I just got one this morning.  I found one of the empty kibble bowls that had been pushed under a chair.  (I really thought that I had gathered them all up, but I guess I missed this one.)  Someone had peed in it.  If that is not a thumbs-down from the critters, I don't know what is. 
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: DeeDee on December 16, 2017, 10:26:01 AM
I'll tell you from having the only picky Corgi on earth, and buying some of the most expensive kibbles on earth, that if a dog is picky about kibble (then isn't even remotely picky about raw food), then something must be wrong with kibble. I used to beg him for a year to eat before we got Vlad who was weaned on raw and whose dam was fed raw. No begging anymore.

That was our final clue that we should be feeding dogs differently. It took us almost a year to change over completely, but I had a lot of research to do b/c I knew that things had to be done a certain way, or they wouldn't be healthy. (Didn't know at that time that raw and processed didn't work well together, but, luckily, neither of ours seemed to have any of the digestive problems with it.)

I DO veer from the normal prey model and feed a BARF diet with veg and fruit puree, but i do it because I noticed a tendency for them to want to eat a LOT of grass outside when I didn't give the veg & fruits. If you notice the same grass eating tendency in your dogs, you might want to consider meals with about 25-30% veg and fruit puree that's comprised of about 90% veg and 10% fruit. Rodney Habib and Dr. Karen Becker think it's good for them too.

I've read that not a lot of difference is seen in a lot of dogs that are given veg and fruits, but with our two, there is a difference.
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 16, 2017, 02:15:32 PM
I'll tell you from having the only picky Corgi on earth, and buying some of the most expensive kibbles on earth, that if a dog is picky about kibble (then isn't even remotely picky about raw food), then something must be wrong with kibble. I used to beg him for a year to eat before we got Vlad who was weaned on raw and whose dam was fed raw. No begging anymore.

That was our final clue that we should be feeding dogs differently. It took us almost a year to change over completely, but I had a lot of research to do b/c I knew that things had to be done a certain way, or they wouldn't be healthy. (Didn't know at that time that raw and processed didn't work well together, but, luckily, neither of ours seemed to have any of the digestive problems with it.)

I DO veer from the normal prey model and feed a BARF diet with veg and fruit puree, but i do it because I noticed a tendency for them to want to eat a LOT of grass outside when I didn't give the veg & fruits. If you notice the same grass eating tendency in your dogs, you might want to consider meals with about 25-30% veg and fruit puree that's comprised of about 90% veg and 10% fruit. Rodney Habib and Dr. Karen Becker think it's good for them too.

I've read that not a lot of difference is seen in a lot of dogs that are given veg and fruits, but with our two, there is a difference.

The food they are getting right now is called Tylee's.  It's not raw, but it is grain-free, with human-grade ingredients.  It does have fruits and veggies.  Years ago, I did prey model raw with two other dogs, and it's what I am most familiar with, but I am open to adding at least some plant materials.  I'm sure some will wonder why I got away from raw at all, and the reason was one of pure logistics:  I was living in a little cabin, with only a dorm fridge.  You pretty much can't do raw under those circumstances, as you barely have room to store fresh food for yourself. 

I'll try both, and see what works best for them.  Either one has to be better than kibble.  Planning to start out mixing in some raw with their Tylee's.   
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 17, 2017, 04:57:32 PM
bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

You rock Catgirl!

PS I was actually wondering what you feed your dogs.  I am thrilled to know they are going raw too!

Hoping to get my housemate on board, too.  She has a chronically smelly Scottie with chronically smelly poo.  I would bet my last penny that better food would address both of these issues.

Working on it...
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Middle Child on December 17, 2017, 05:24:37 PM
Hoping to get my housemate on board, too.  She has a chronically smelly Scottie with chronically smelly poo.  I would bet my last penny that better food would address both of these issues.

Working on it...

Absolutely the improved diet would!
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 17, 2017, 06:44:22 PM
The food they are getting right now is called Tylee's.  It's not raw, but it is grain-free, with human-grade ingredients.  It does have fruits and veggies.  Years ago, I did prey model raw with two other dogs, and it's what I am most familiar with, but I am open to adding at least some plant materials.  I'm sure some will wonder why I got away from raw at all, and the reason was one of pure logistics:  I was living in a little cabin, with only a dorm fridge.  You pretty much can't do raw under those circumstances, as you barely have room to store fresh food for yourself. 

I'll try both, and see what works best for them.  Either one has to be better than kibble.  Planning to start out mixing in some raw with their Tylee's.

Mixed a bit of half-baked chicken with their food tonight.  They devoured it.  This is going to be much easier than transitioning the cats.  Based on their reaction, and my prior experience with raw for dogs, I could have the job done in a week or two, if I brush up on my knowledge of the correct size bones and can find a good source of organs, other than liver.

Lola, do you want me to continue with the dogs' progress here, or is there a better place for it? 
Title: Re: Dry Vs Wet
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 26, 2017, 03:14:45 AM
Absolutely the improved diet would!

She's starting to show some interest!  I think seeing a difference in Bandit is making an impression.  The fact that he has not had diarrhea once since I ditched the dry food is a pretty powerful argument.  I'm thrilled, because honestly, she doesn't like change, and is usually very invested in the opinions of "authority" figures.  She fed Iams for years...on the advice of her vet.  :(