It's over, the regurgitation has got to end

[Middle Child]

Some of you know that I have a FLUTD kitty eating c/d kibble. She won't eat the c/d canned (I don't blame her).  Repeated efforts to switch her to the grain free canned diets my other cats eat have resulted in elevated pH and too many struvite crystals.

However, her tolerance for the c/d has hit an all time low.  She is regurgitating almost daily now, and I can't take it any more. I have tried many things.  She is fed in tiny portions, to prevent scarf and barf.  I've added pure chicken fat, to help the kibbles slide down.  While this has made her coat lovely and soft and shiny, it has not helped the regurgitation.  I've put her on a probiotic, in an effort to help her body digest the food.  No difference. 

It's obvious, to me, what is happening.  Her body is just not digesting the food.  It sits in a lump in her stomach for 12 hours or more.  So when she eats a new batch, her stomach just can't take all that corn mush, and causes her to heave it back up.  I've decided this is what is happening,  because when she does regurge, not only does the present meal come up, but there is much evidence of the meal she ate 10 hours ago in it, also.

 So here's the plan.  She is, as of today being switched over to a canned diet.  I'll try her on the Before Grain first, and go from there.  I've purchased urine pH strips to test her urine.  This way I can evaluate how the foods are affecting her, and change them accordingly.  If the pH goes too high (which I expect it will, as it always does) I will speak to my vet about using a urine acidifier.  But no more c/d.  I'll be bringing the most recently opened bag back to the vet for a refund.

Wish us luck!

[Lola]

You have probably already checked into this, but...
In all my reading about felines and food issues, I came across info concerning different factors that can produce skewed PH level readings.  UNFORTUNATELY, that is all I remember.    However, the odds are pretty good that I was probably visiting a reputable website like FelineOutreach.org, Catinfo.org, FelineNutrition.org, Maxshouse.com ...you get the idea.  

Anyway...hope Before Grain works magic for your kitty.  

Is the vet that recommended you feed C/D, your current vet?  Just curious.

[Middle Child]

Thanks Lola, yes it is my current vet that recommends the c/d. I haven't discussed this with her yet, as I only made the final decision this week.

 She knows that I try every year or two to switch my girl back to a commercial canned diet. I usually start 2 months before her six month check up. When kitty is on the c/d her urine pH is 6.5.  When I take her off the c/d it jumps to 7 or even, the year I tried Wellness, to 7.5.  The results are consistent. But I just cannot have her on this food any more.  Her body is quite clearly rejecting it.

If she would eat the c/d canned I would be willing to give that a long term try, but even though she is not a finicky cat, she will not eat the c/d canned.  I will not try the Purina UR wet diet because it contains menadione sodium bisulfite.  I won't try the Royal Canin SO wet diet because it contains powdered cellulose.

So...we'll start with the BG.  And if that causes problems I'll try the Natural Life, the newest food I have added to their rotation, that is  "premium" grocery store brand.  I posted about it under the brands section.

I really don't know how the testing strips will work out. I've had a brand recommended to me, that people use for their cats. I'm not going to subject her to repeated trips to the vet for cystocentesis. I'll test at home, and if I think she needs an acidifier I'll ask my vet to recommend one.

[Lola]

I fed Before Grain to the cats, for the first time, today.  5 devoured it.  2 walked away. 
Now, I'm going to go feed the dogs.  Not only will they lick their bowls clean, they will give me kisses when they are finished. 

[CarnivorousCritter]

Best wishes, MC!     

[Auntie Crazy]

Take a look at Nature's Logic canned products, too. It contains no synthetic vitamins, minerals or additives.

Good luck.

AC

[Lola]

Take a look at Nature's Logic canned products, too. It contains no synthetic vitamins, minerals or additives.

Good luck.

AC

I assume you mean the raw?  Their canned doesn't look so good.  Not that ANY mfg canned does...

INGREDIENTS: Chicken, Chicken Broth, Chicken Liver, Chicken Heart, Dried Egg Product, Porcine Plasma, Motmorillonite Clay, Cottage Cheese, Cod Liver Oil, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Apple, Dried Apricot, Alfalfa Meal, Dried Artichoke, Dried Blueberry, Dried Broccoli, Dried Carrot, Dried Chicory Root, Dried Cranberry, Dried Kelp, Parsley, Dried Pumpkin, Rosemary, Dried Spinach, Dried Tomato, Egg Shell Meal.

How's it going today, MC?

[Middle Child]

Thanks AC.  I've read up on the Natures Logic now, and checked prices.  I'll keep it in mind for when I am looking to add to our rotation.  Currently I've got cat food cases piled in stacks all around the apartment and need to use some of it up before adding more.

Lola, so far she's doing okay.  I'm feeding her her canned in the morning, and she gets her c/d for supper meals. Eventually she will be all canned, but I don't like to change over too quickly. Using the probiotic too, to help her body cope with the change. She wretched a little yesterday, but I think that was some fur in her throat, so she got her hair ball remedy, much to her dismay.

Giving her body a break from the kibble is helping her.  Before, she had that stuff lying like sludge in her gut all the time, it takes so long to digest.  Now she's only getting it every 24 hours so it has time to get out of there. I'll be glad when she's not getting it at all.

[Pookie]

Hi MC,

Have you considered also adding a digestive enzyme to her food to help her body break down/absorb the nutrients?  A probiotic is great, but I'm thinking a digestive enzyme might also help.

Just a suggestion:  you may want to add water to the canned to help keep her flushed out.  I see there's spinach in the Nature's Logic, and it's my understanding that spinach can also cause crystals, which is another reason I suggest adding water to the wet food.

Have you tried her with Weruva?  (I know it also has spinach in it, but they're going to remove it from the formula though it may take a few months).  It's expensive, but good quality.

Good luck to you!   

[Middle Child]

Hey Pookie, thanks for your suggestions.  what's a digestive enzyme?  Can you recommend a brand?

I do add water to her canned food.

I do feed Weruva, though I haven't fed it to her.  So far, I'm just feeding her the same canned every morning, and the kibble at night.  The canned she is getting is Before Grain beef. Rather than upset her system with too many changes I figured I'd just stick to the BG beef until she is on completely canned food.  Then I can start adding variety.

I read somewhere (forget where) to test the urine...I think 12 hours....? after any given canned food, to see if it is raising her pH too high.  I wish I could remember where I read that, it wasn't in any of my usual forums, it was one I was just browsing through, one time, when searching for info on something else.

[Pookie]

Hi MC!

From Wikipedia (they explain it better than I can):  Digestive enzymes are enzymes that break down polymeric macromolecules into their smaller building blocks, in order to facilitate their absorption by the body. Digestive enzymes are found in the digestive tract of animals (including humans) where they aid in the digestion of food as well as inside the cells, especially in their lysosomes where they function to maintain cellular survival. Digestive enzymes are diverse and are found in the saliva secreted by the salivary glands, in the stomach secreted by cells lining the stomach, in the pancreatic juice secreted by pancreatic exocrine cells, and in the intestinal (small and large) secretions, or as part of the lining of the gastrointestinal tract.

I just bought this one but haven't added it to Pookie's food yet (http://www.naturvet.com/index.php?option=com_dogcat&task=view&Itemid=36&pid=43) so I don't know how much it helps.  I can't remember where I read it (maybe littlebigcat?), but I read something once about using digestive enzymes that included amylase, lipase, protease and cellulase.  I liked this one because it had all of them plus a probiotic, which I'd already been giving him.  The few others I found only had 1 or 2 of the enzymes I was looking for.

I think you're absolutely right about keeping the changes to a minimum and slowly adding to the rotation.     She's lucky to have you!

[Lola]

I've read up on the Natures Logic now, and checked prices.  I'll keep it in mind for when I am looking to add to our rotation. 

You've mentioned you aren't ready to take the "raw route," so I'm assuming  you are referring to the canned version.  What about the Motmorillonite Clay and all the fruits and vegtables you aren't fond of?  I'm usually not too overly concerned, if the fruits and veggies are faaaaar down on the ingredients list.  Curious as to what your "take" is on that sort of thing.

[Middle Child]

You've mentioned you aren't ready to take the "raw route," so I'm assuming  you are referring to the canned version.  What about the Motmorillonite Clay and all the fruits and vegtables you aren't fond of?  I'm usually not too overly concerned, if the fruits and veggies are faaaaar down on the ingredients list.  Curious as to what your "take" is on that sort of thing.

It would be one of those foods that is fed once in a great while.  I have a few like that, mainly for the Little Cat.  She is very finicky and often will not eat the same food even two meals in a row.  I have no idea what made her like this, she was not like this before she got sick with her nutrient absorption problems. The other two girls, FLUTD kitty and Top Cat, will eat almost anything, but can't because of their own unique issues.  FLUTD girl of course I want to keep as low in phosphorous as possible.  Top Cat is constipation prone.  Even with the pumpkin, I've discovered that too much variety brings her problem back.  Especially Weruva.

Back on topic, as of today 3/4 of her intake is the canned Before Grain Beef.  Her last meal of the day is the only c/d meal. She did have a soft stool this morning, smaller than usual for her, and I have seen her licking her nether regions more often than I am comfortable with.  I keep telling myself, even if this change is going to cause problems, based on experience from trying to do this at other times,  it is much too soon for any to be showing up, she's probably licking because of the soft poop issue.

I may have to use a urine acidifier though.  Any thoughts on that, anyone?

I'll be glad when the pH strips get here. Maybe tomorrow.

[Middle Child]

I have happy news.  My girl has been on the Before Grain canned beef for 8 days now.  There has been no puking, and no need for mineral oil for constipation.  Her energy level has at the very least, tripled.

I did a dry matter number comparison on the BG canned beef and the Hills c/d kibble for the phosphorus and magnesium.  There is very little difference:

phosphorous: c/d kibble: 0.65 Before Grain canned beef: 0.8
magnesium: c/d kibble: 0.060 Before Grain canned beef: 0.044
potassium: c/d kibble: 0.86 Before Grain canned beef: 1.07

The sodium is actually higher in the canned food (1.12) compared to the c/d (0.36), which I am not thrilled with but I have not been able to find a decent food with lower sodium. High sodium does NOT make this girl drink.

Incidentally, regarding the Royal Canin SO prescription line : the phosphorus/magnesium numbers I listed for the Before Grain canned beef food are LOWER than the numbers in the Royal Canin Urinary SO canned diet. RC's higher numbers were actually a reason in the past I did not want to feed that food. But now, since they put powdered cellulose in their food, I would never consider it no matter what the numbers.

I used to be an advocate for the Hills c/d.  I felt sure that in some cases, it was the lesser of two evils, and especially in males, sometimes one just has to bite the bullet and feed this crappy food.  I think, if my girl had been willing to eat the canned c/d I never would have gotten to this point.  But who knows, perhaps the canned would have caused just as much trouble as the corn laden dry.

And even now, with males it can be so much more serious, and for people who don't want to do the work, perhaps it is still a good thing these foods are available. But I am trying to gather UA from every food I feed in rotation. Food brand websites almost never put all the info available. Merrick Before Grain is the only list I have so far.  The beef is the only one that has numbers low enough for me to feel comfortable feeding my girl.

But as the numbers for the other brands come in I will be doing my calculations, and maybe I can get her on a more varied diet. But even if I can't.  Merrick Before Grain beef (with no fruits or veggies either) is better than what she was eating.

[Middle Child]

I almost forgot!

I've tested her urine with the strips twice now.  Last night and this morning. They are showing up a perfect match for 6.5 pH!