Author Topic: Rabies Challenge  (Read 5755 times)

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Offline Pookie

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Rabies Challenge
« on: April 25, 2012, 03:45:27 PM »
FYI, currently the rabies vaccine is available for 1 year or 3 year duration of immunity (both are exactly the same, just marketed differently).  The Rabies Challenge is being done to determine if the vaccines are still effective after 5 and 7 years.

*snip*
The Rabies Challenge Fund Charitable Trust will determine the duration of immunity conveyed by rabies vaccines. The goal is to extend the required interval for rabies boosters to 5 and then to 7 years. This project depends primarily upon grassroots gifts for funding the costs of conducting the requisite vaccine trials.  Our contributions to date have come mostly from kennel clubs and private individuals. The Rabies Challenge Fund Charitable Trust is a federally registered 501(c)(3) charitable organization [Fed. EIN # 84-6390682].

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/
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Offline Gump and Co

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 04:30:20 PM »
Hi Pookie,

Thanks for posting about the Rabies Challenge. Unfortunately, the Rabies Challenge Fund studies are being done on dogs only. I sent an email recently to verify this, and it made me sad. I don't know if this vital information will end up being applicable for cats? My sense is that it won't, but who knows, and maybe it will influence titers becoming more accepted and maybe more people will realize that rabies and other vaccines last much longer than typically thought.

This is the email response I got from one of the people who got the Rabies Challenge going:

...."The concurrent 5 & 7 year rabies challenge studies only include dogs.  In order for there to be a feline study, feline owners would have to organize and raise a minimum of $1.5 million to conduct a separate species study.
 
Regards, Kris"

Do you think cat owners would be interested enough and able to raise a significant amount of funds to study the long term DOI of the rabies vaccine in cats?

edit1 P.S. I love your signature! 2-4-6-8 DON'T OVERVACCINATE!  yaygif BanWooHoo coolgif2
 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 04:41:05 PM by Gump and Co »

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2012, 08:33:21 PM »
To clarify, the DOG rabies vaccines 1 and 3 year may be the same, that is not true for the cat rabies vaccines.

The PureVax feline rabies vaccine does not contain the adjuvant other vaccines have, and that is why, so far, it is only approved for one year. My vet is one of those of the mind that the PureVax non adjuvanted vaccine should be passed for a 3 year vaccine, but it has not happened yet, at least not in my state.

Up to date rabies is law in my state and my vet uses only PureVax feline non adjuvanted vaccine.  It is thought that the adjuvant is the cause of VAS (vaccine associated sarcoma) in cats.

Rabies is alive and well where I live, and it's not been just wild animals, bats and raccoons mostly,  reported, there's been a couple dogs and cats too,  too many don't vaccinate at all.

I am not advocating for over vaccination, but rabies is a problem everywhere (except the UK of course) and even though I believe animals are protected for much longer than the law allows, following the laws protects your pets from being quarantined for many months (at pet owners expense) or worse, being destroyed, should your pet bite someone and not be up to date, or should a bat get in your house or your pet get out and lost.

I have had two instances in the past year where I had to go to urgent care with cat bites.  The bites were accidental, from my own vaccinated indoor cats.  But both times I had to fill out dept of health forms and provide proof of vaccination, my cats were put on "house quarantine", and there was a follow up phone call in three weeks both times to ensure that the cats were still "healthy".

I'd like to see the vaccines laws changed to more appropriate time spans, but I will keep my cats up to date on rabies vaccines, based on the laws wherever I am living.

Offline Lola

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2012, 10:34:26 PM »
Quick OT..

HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Gump!!!!   HeadButt
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 10:03:25 AM »
Unfortunately, the Rabies Challenge Fund studies are being done on dogs only. 

 :'(  I didn't know that!   :'(  Thank you for checking -- it didn't even occur to me that it would just be dogs.  I thought it was for dogs and cats.  *sigh* Why do they always focus on dogs first???  Cats are more popular!

I would think whatever the results are for dogs, it will also apply to cats, and maybe even more so.  I believe the sarcomas were seen in cats before they were seen in dogs, and that makes me think the effect in cats is stronger (and possibly longer) than in dogs.  But that's just a theory.  I don't know if there'd be enough cat owners willing to try to do a similar study.  I know I would, but that's because I REALLY don't like them.

From littlebigcat:

Killed rabies vaccines are labeled for either 1 or 3 years; but the vaccine in the bottle is exactly the same in both cases.

From catinfo.org:

Unfortunately, the PureVax rabies vaccine only carries a 1-year rating even though 2 studies have shown that it protects cats for much longer.  This is in contrast to the more dangerous adjuvanted rabies vaccines that carry a 3-year rating.

Merial conducted 2 well-run studies showing that their PureVax rabies vaccine protected all study participants from a challenge with the rabies virus 3 years later.  However 1 'control' (non-vaccinated) cat in each study did not die from the rabies challenge. Therefore, Meriel was not granted a 3-year license for this vaccine.  Good science shows that this vaccine is protective for at least 3 years but legally, it is only labeled for 1 year protection.

Also from catinfo.org:

- even the non-adjuvanted FVRCP vaccines have caused sarcomas, as have the PureVax vaccines

Now me:

I understand the reasons behind vaccinating and why the law exists.  It’s very hard for me to be objective, though, because I’m convinced that over-vaccination contributed significantly to the issues Pookie’s sister had, and I don’t wish what she went through on anyone. Both Pookie and his sister got the full combo vaccine (FVRCPC) EVERY YEAR for 5 YEARS in the scruff of the neck.  This while both were vomiting their food all the time (literally) [remember, vaccines are for use in healthy animals only, not ones with chronic or acute diseases.  I think constant vomiting would qualify.]  Both were/are strictly indoor, with no inclination to go outside, no access to the attic and I don’t have a fireplace.  I believe that should all be taken into consideration when vaccinating, and I don’t believe that after getting rabies shots for 5 years in a row, the vaccine just suddenly stopped working.  So if I come off too strong on this issue, I apologize, it’s just very personal for me.  It doesn’t help that, not long after I lost his sister, I thought I was seeing similar issues in Pookie for a while.

It’s everyone’s own decision (and the law for rabies) on how often to vaccinate.  My goal is to just get the information out there that it’s not necessary to do it yearly (unless you show or board/kennel your pet), it should NOT be done in the scruff of the neck, it should not be done in animals with health problems (per the label), and there are risks (as there are risks with not vaccinating).  Had I known all this years ago, maybe things would be different for Pookie and his sister.  I consider it a lesson hard-learned and really don’t want anyone else (or their pet) to learn it the same way. 

I apologize if I’m being hissy.  cat2
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 10:58:11 AM »
You're not being hissy.   HeadButt

 This is an important subject, and exchanging experiences, opinions and information is very valuable to all of us.

My cats get the kitten distemper series (aka FVRCP) and one adult ("good for three years") FVRCP and that's it for that one.  Two of my cats have no trouble with the purevax rabies, but my Little cat had diarrhea for a week after hers last year.  My vet, though she believes annual shots aren't necessary, is not convinced the diarrhea was related to the vaccine but I insisted it be put in her chart that she had a bad reaction to the shot.  When she is again due this year, I will have to make a decision on how to handle it.

Offline Gump and Co

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2012, 12:45:38 PM »
Pookie, you are not being hissy!! These issues concerning vaccines are very important. It's about getting information out there, like you said.  clapping1

There are still many, many people who have no idea that there are any concerns with vaccines for companion animals. In my experience vets aren't always discussing issues about vaccines and many still just do yearly vacs even though the AAFP guideline for the core FVRCP (the biggie) is no more frequently than every three years. My vets didn't follow the AAFP guideline (since 1998),  and also gave boosters to my cat when he had chronic disease! (one of these was a previous feline-only vet).  I wish I had been more clear on some of these issues years ago, but now we have the internet and sites like this where information can be shared. Dealing with kidney disease and learning about the possible issues with the FVRCP vaccine makes me much more aware of these issues.

I'm lucky because in my state cats aren't required by law to have the rabies vaccine (just learned that within the last year or so  bonkhead). From the state of Michigan website: "Cats are not required to be vaccinated by Michigan law, but it's strongly recommended due to the predatory nature of cats." "http://www.michigan.gov/documents/rabies_pets_flowchart_134247_7.pdf
Although laws can be different in cities and municipalities and that makes me a little nervous.
 
I have heard people saying that your cat or dog will be euthanized if it bites someone and the rabies vaccine is not "current". That doesn't happen in my state and I'm wondering if anyone knows of states that will do this. And actually I know someone who was bit by a family cat and hospitalized for half a day, but the state of MI never contacted them. This was in 2003, so maybe the situation is different now.

Rabies can be a serious problem, but hopefully the rabies challenge studies will show that cats and dogs don't need so many boosters to have immunity. Like Dr. Ronald Schultz says, "vaccinating the animal more often won't increase herd immunity or make the animal any more immune." I also want to say that I'm not implying that animals shouldn't be vaccinated, just that there are concerns (big concerns) with overvaccinating. I'll still do minimal vaccines to make sure my cats have immunity to rabies (and for the FVRCP), and I can get a titer test for $99 to make sure. (a tech from a holistic vet gave me that price)

My understanding about the Purevax, non-adjuvanted rabies vaccine is that they did two studies that showed all of the vaccinated cats had immunity for three years (they were only trying to show immunity was three years, even though it's likely much longer than that), BUT they didn't have enough cats die of rabies in their control groups (that's what happens in research :( ) to show that the challenge was strong enough according to FDA standards, so they couldn't get the three year approval. So the one year Purevax has been shown to provide at least three years of immunity.

I also think the the adjuvanted vaccines may be more likely to induce injection site sarcomas (cancer) and I'd avoid them, although this is what Dr. Michael Lappin from CSU said recently:

"...problems associated with feline vaccines have been
injection-associated sarcoma. Initially, this problem seemed most apparent in cats
administered rabies virus and feline leukemia virus vaccines that contained adjuvants.
However, recent information suggests that injection site sarcomas can occur with any type of
vaccine. For example, in the United Kingdom in 2006 and 2007, the majority of injection site
sarcomas reported in cats occurred at the site a live vaccine (non-adjuvanted) was
administered. Studies have failed to show a link to individual products. It is now apparent that
cats that develop injection site sarcomas may be genetically predisposed and that any level of
inflammation could result in malignant transformation."


Just wanted to share some thoughts. Sorry if I rambled. I've been looking into this whole subject recently since dealing with kidney disease.
Also, I realize the situation is different for show cats and also for boarding facilities, etc...

Lola, HI!!!! hellowave love1
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 07:53:04 PM by Lola, Reason: edited for ya :) »

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2012, 01:20:38 PM »
Pookie, you are not being hissy!! These issues concerning vaccines are very important. It's about getting information out there, like you said.  clapping1

There are still many, many people who have no idea that there are any concerns with vaccines for companion animals. In my experience vets aren't always discussing issues about vaccines and many still just do yearly vacs even though the AAFP guideline for the core FVRCP (the biggie) is no more frequently than every three years. My vets didn't follow the AAFP guideline (since 1998),  and also gave boosters to my cat when he had chronic disease! (one of these was a previous feline-only vet).  I wish I had been more clear on some of these issues years ago, but now we have the internet and sites like this where information can be shared. Dealing with kidney disease and learning about the possible issues with the FVRCP vaccine makes me much more aware of these issues.

I'm lucky because in my state cats aren't required by law to have the rabies vaccine (just learned that within the last year or so  bonkhead). From the state of Michigan website: "Cats are not required to be vaccinated by Michigan law, but it's strongly recommended due to the predatory nature of cats." "http://www.michigan.gov/documents/rabies_pets_flowchart_134247_7.pdf
Although laws can be different in cities and municipalities and that makes me a little nervous.
 
I have heard people saying that your cat or dog will be euthanized if it bites someone and the rabies vaccine is not "current". That doesn't happen in my state and I'm wondering if anyone knows of states that will do this. And actually I know someone who was bit by a family cat and hospitalized for half a day, but the state of MI never contacted them. This was in 2003, so maybe the situation is different now.

Rabies can be a serious problem, but hopefully the rabies challenge studies will show that cats and dogs don't need so many boosters to have immunity. Like Dr. Ronald Schultz says, "vaccinating the animal more often won't increase herd immunity or make the animal any more immune." I also want to say that I'm not implying that animals shouldn't be vaccinated, just that there are concerns (big concerns) with overvaccinating. I'll still do minimal vaccines to make sure my cats have immunity to rabies (and for the FVRCP), and I can get a titer test for $99 to make sure. (a tech from a holistic vet gave me that price)

My understanding about the Purevax, non-adjuvanted rabies vaccine is that they did two studies that showed all of the vaccinated cats had immunity for three years (they were only trying to show immunity was three years, even though it's likely much longer than that), BUT they didn't have enough cats die of rabies in their control groups (that's what happens in research :( ) to show that the challenge was strong enough according to FDA standards, so they couldn't get the three year approval. So the one year Purevax has been shown to provide at least three years of immunity.

I also think the the non-adjuvanted vaccines may be more likely to induce injection site sarcomas (cancer) and I'd avoid them, although this is what Dr. Michael Lappin from CSU said recently:

"...problems associated with feline vaccines have been
injection-associated sarcoma. Initially, this problem seemed most apparent in cats
administered rabies virus and feline leukemia virus vaccines that contained adjuvants.
However, recent information suggests that injection site sarcomas can occur with any type of
vaccine. For example, in the United Kingdom in 2006 and 2007, the majority of injection site
sarcomas reported in cats occurred at the site a live vaccine (non-adjuvanted) was
administered. Studies have failed to show a link to individual products. It is now apparent that
cats that develop injection site sarcomas may be genetically predisposed and that any level of
inflammation could result in malignant transformation."


Just wanted to share some thoughts. Sorry if I rambled. I've been looking into this whole subject recently since dealing with kidney disease.
Also, I realize the situation is different for show cats and also for boarding facilities, etc...

Lola, HI!!!! hellowave love1


 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1

Offline Gump and Co

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 01:31:31 PM »

I also think the the non-adjuvanted vaccines may be more likely to induce injection site sarcomas (cancer) and I'd avoid them, although this is what Dr. Michael Lappin from CSU said recently:

"...problems associated with feline vaccines have been
injection-associated sarcoma. Initially, this problem seemed most apparent in cats
administered rabies virus and feline leukemia virus vaccines that contained adjuvants.
However, recent information suggests that injection site sarcomas can occur with any type of
vaccine. For example, in the United Kingdom in 2006 and 2007, the majority of injection site
sarcomas reported in cats occurred at the site a live vaccine (non-adjuvanted) was
administered. Studies have failed to show a link to individual products. It is now apparent that
cats that develop injection site sarcomas may be genetically predisposed and that any level of
inflammation could result in malignant transformation."



Oops, I need to edit that!
I meant to say..."I also think the adjuvanted vaccines MAY be more likely to induce injection site sarcomas...."

It's the adjuvanted vaccines that had been thought to be more associated with injection site sarcomas. Dr. Pierson talks about this quite bit, but it may not be more common with the adjuvanted vaccines.

I hope that makes sense!  :-\

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 05:18:45 PM »
Oops, I need to edit that!
I meant to say..."I also think the adjuvanted vaccines MAY be more likely to induce injection site sarcomas...."

It's the adjuvanted vaccines that had been thought to be more associated with injection site sarcomas. Dr. Pierson talks about this quite bit, but it may not be more common with the adjuvanted vaccines.

I hope that makes sense!  :-\

You know.....when I read your post, I read it as adjuvanted, even though you wrote non-adjuvanted because that is what I have learned, and believe to be true. However, somewhere my subconscious must have known there was something wrong with that statement because..something seemed not right,  I kept looking for an error but couldn't find one, my brain just wanted to see it the way I thought it. funny2

Offline Gump and Co

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2012, 05:52:01 PM »
I kept looking for an error but couldn't find one, my brain just wanted to see it the way I thought it. funny2

That happens to me a lot. Part of why I have to use the edit function quite often.  Bumpurr1   cryingfunny

Offline Lola

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2012, 07:53:29 PM »
Edited it for ya.   ;D
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »
"Education is the key" to make informed decisions about the health of our pets

Offline Pookie

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Re: Rabies Challenge
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 01:12:31 PM »
Thanks, Shadow!!!!   :-* HeadButt :-* HeadButt
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