Author Topic: The Outside Dilemma  (Read 64016 times)

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2014, 04:35:34 PM »
Pookie, thank you so much for all your help!  I just gave Mazy cat her first taste of raw organic apple cider vinegar.  Three tiny drops (probably equal to about one real drop) in .2 oz of canned food.  She ate it right up.  I could smell it in there but she either liked it or couldn't smell it.

10 minutes later she had her other half of the meal, another .2 oz canned, this time with the lecithin in it (that is her usual after work meal routine, .2 oz plain, then ten minutes later, and after she pees, .2 oz with the egg yolk lecithin.

To test what it's going to do to her urine I got the strips out and tested her pee, to keep tabs on that.  Haven't tested her pee in a long time since the results I get from the strips never match up with the results the vet gets.  But I thought it would be good to have a base for comparison.  It was the same as it's always been showing 7.25 on the top square and 6.5 on the bottom. Ideally there is only supposed to be a match with ONE of the squares, but I always seem to get two answers.

Now, I think I am going to need to read more on this, to figure out how much she should be getting to help her. I have a lot of questions now.

A drop with every canned serving?  Or

A drop with the first serving but not the second? She gets 12 servings a day (9 are canned 3 are raw). 

Two of those servings, totaling .5 oz, have 1/8 tsp of SEB (1/8 total I mean) mixed in (the lunch meal, she gets two servings of .25 oz)

The middle of the night meal has 1/2 of a Vet's-Best hairball relief tablet in .3 oz.

Will the ACV interfere with the benefits of the SEB and the V-B?  Or, because of the acid nature of the ACV, it's good that she have it with the mucilage meals? 

Maybe it would be best to give it only with the mucilage meals?

So many things to figure out.



The article got me to wondering about cats and digestive enzymes (like dogs need for carbs) since I couldn't find enzymes in Bio-Kult, and I found this:

http://consciouscat.net/2010/02/08/benefits-of-digestive-enzymes-for-pets/

This is one of the few brands I can find without lactose though. At least I think cats are lactose intolerant.

http://www.goodpet.com/cats/feline-digestive-enzymes/

But you could look for different brands to see if you can find others without lactose. I'm not going to link a ton of things because, I'm sorry, but I can't remember if she's already on enzymes or not.


Thanks Dee!  I have read that Conscious cat article before.  The article warns against mixing raw and canned feeding, but that is what I do and have no intentions of changing it. I am of the belief that ANY raw is better than no raw.

I don't feed raw and canned mixed together but the cats do get both raw meals and canned meals.

Thanks for doing the digestive enzyme research. How  do you know it's lactose free? I looked at the goodpet digestive enzyme link but it does not list ingredients.  I do tend to be a bit..skeptical.. of made for pet supplements like this because it seems every new catch word brings out a flood of products.  "Digestive Enzymes" are all the rage now, so everyone wants to get on the bandwagon.

  I'm not saying there isn't merit in the suggestion there is the need for them, just saying I don't trust things made for pets, generally speaking.

Prozyme (the brand I tried before) does have a for cats only formula that doesn't contain any dairy ingredients, but I didn't like some of the "other ingredients" in it.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2014, 05:19:51 PM »

Thanks for doing the digestive enzyme research. How  do you know it's lactose free? I looked at the goodpet digestive enzyme link but it does not list ingredients.  I do tend to be a bit..skeptical.. of made for pet supplements like this because it seems every new catch word brings out a flood of products.  "Digestive Enzymes" are all the rage now, so everyone wants to get on the bandwagon.

 

The ingredients list.

Per 1750 mg (one tsp) Protease 16000 HUT Amylase 2000 DU Lipase 36.14 LU Acidophilus 100 mill CFU Cellulase 12 CU.

Another edit: I'm not sure if that Acidophilus "mill" means million or what though, and I'm not sure at all what the other measurement acronyms mean. But at least that one has a probiotic in it with the acidophilus though.

I've kept the boys on enzymes even now that Vlad's shoulder is healed just because I feed veg and fruit. Great Dane Lady's site that got them started on enzymes due to the protocol for Vlad's shoulder: http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_importance_of_enzymes_in_a_diet.htm  Her preferred brand is Nzymes and they make for people AND animals.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 05:40:51 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2014, 05:46:25 PM »
But that's not an ingredient list Dee.  That's just the digestive enzyme values.  I want to know what's IN it.  What it's made from, what they use for anticaking and all that.



Offline DeeDee

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 11:26:17 PM »
From: http://store.nexternal.com/vegancats/feline-formula-digestive-enzymes-by-dr-goodpet-p24.aspx and


Quote
Ingredients: Beet root fiber, protease, amylase, lipase and cellulase enzymes derived from aspergillus, lactobacillus acidophilus. Contains no sugar, yeast, preservatives, artificial coloring, flavoring or chemical additives.

So, I guess it's, in essence, Beet root fiber, aspergillus, and acidophilus; or nasty tasting roots yuk, fungi, and good bacteria
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2014, 06:36:13 AM »
That's what I wanted, thank you very much.  No beet root fiber for Mazy cat.  LOL.

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2014, 09:14:34 AM »
Just an observation.  Mazy cat just had a small canned meal (.2 oz, that is 2/10 of an ounce) with one full drop of ACV in it. Instead of crouching for ten minutes, as she often does after she eats, she is racing around the house with one of her special cap toys, singing up a storm.

Hmmm.......

Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2014, 11:37:20 AM »
I wanted to get on here yesterday, but just never got a chance.

Lola, thanks for the great article!  I'm wondering if being on a dry diet for several years alters the stomach pH permanently?   :(  I have a hunch no one's really studied that, though.

MC, I TOTALLY forgot about her pee issues!   Doh1  That's a great idea to check with the strips, and I'll be curious to see if the ACV alters the pH.  I hope it doesn't cause any problems for her that way.  fingerscrossed

I'm not sure how the ACV will interact with the Vet's Best or Slippery Elm.  I don't think there will be a problem with the slippery elm -- that should theoretically help the mucous of her stomach so the stomach lining is protected from the acid.  As for the Vet's Best . . . I can't imagine that would be an issue, either.  The Vet's Best wouldn't have trouble in a tummy producing enough acid, and essentially, what you're trying to do with the ACV is get her stomach acid to a "normal" amount.

As for the dosing . . . I would suggest maybe a drop with each meal.  The stomach needs the acid to help get the digestion process going, and under normal circumstances, it would produce the acid on it's own every time she eats.  If you want to start with a smaller or larger amount, by all means, go with what makes you comfortable.

One thing I read in my class material is that the stomach can be "retrained" over time to produce enough acid.  So, let's say you add the ACV and for several weeks or even months, she doesn't have any tummy upset.  Then she suddenly develops upset, or looks uncomfortable (you know the signs to look for), you might need to reduce the dose a little, as it's possible her tummy is starting to produce more acid on it's own.  After reducing the dose, she might be fine for a while then have tummy upset again.  Reduce the dose again, and so on . . .

Mind you, I'm taking what I've read for humans and applying it to cats, in the assumption that if we study animals to see the effects of medicines on people, the reverse should also work (at least most of the time).  At least, that's my logic.   Silly7

As for the digestive enzymes . . . the stomach produces the acid to help break down the food.  Digestive enzymes continue that breakdown, but also help carry the nutrients to the rest of the body.  But it's harder for them to do their job if the stomach isn't producing enough acid, because the food hasn't been broken down as well.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2014, 11:38:37 AM »
Just an observation.  Mazy cat just had a small canned meal (.2 oz, that is 2/10 of an ounce) with one full drop of ACV in it. Instead of crouching for ten minutes, as she often does after she eats, she is racing around the house with one of her special cap toys, singing up a storm.

Hmmm.......

That is AWESOME!  Maybe we're on to something here?  Or maybe she's just having a really good day!   funny2
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2014, 12:00:57 PM »
Just an observation.  Mazy cat just had a small canned meal (.2 oz, that is 2/10 of an ounce) with one full drop of ACV in it. Instead of crouching for ten minutes, as she often does after she eats, she is racing around the house with one of her special cap toys, singing up a storm.

Hmmm.......

Don't be surprised IF she has to pee more when on ACV though. V&B seem to drink more, pee more if I give it to them. Come to think of it, so did I before I got rid of my food allergens and had to take it for GERD.

"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2014, 02:27:57 PM »
Quick question, MC:  do you give the slippery elm just before the meal, or with the meal?  Just curious.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2014, 05:50:22 PM »
Thank you soo much everyone!  I have to go back and re read a lot of posts I rthink I ahve missed some things, you are all so helpful I don't want to miss anything.

Mazy gets her SEB mixed into her midday meal.  This is a meal fed after a 6 hour fast (the longest she ever goes, except in unavoidable circumstances)  I mix the 1/8 teaspoon into the .5 oz food with a little water.  She eats it in two portions ten minutes apart.

Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2014, 09:39:18 PM »
I am seeing a lot of CONFLICTING information about ACV and cats.

  Some sites claim it will acidify the urine, helping with UTI and struvite formation.

 Others claim just the opposite, that ACV is alkaline and will cause an alkaline (high) pH in cats.

AAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!

I don't think asking my vet will be helpful, while she is supportive of raw feeding and other things I am doing, she is hesitant and not really a fan of.... 'holistic.....remedies.

Granted, I want to try it for Mazy's digestive health, but I can't risk causing urinary tract issues for her.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2014, 10:25:12 PM »
I am seeing a lot of CONFLICTING information about ACV and cats.

  Some sites claim it will acidify the urine, helping with UTI and struvite formation.

 Others claim just the opposite, that ACV is alkaline and will cause an alkaline (high) pH in cats.

AAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!



Alkaline in humans at least:  http://www.livestrong.com/article/530426-can-apple-cidar-vinegar-treat-acidic-urine/

Everything I can find on it indicates that it neutralizes acids in dogs and cats--and that's why it will help with those brown tear stains on some dogs.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 10:36:17 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2014, 01:14:57 PM »
Not to go off topic, but...  :)  Once I stopped feeding kibble... no more "tears." 
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Offline Lola

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2014, 01:16:40 PM »
Also, I am SHOCKED that Mazy (or any cat) will eat her food with raw apple cider vinegar on it... even a drop!  WOW
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