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Offline Macy

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Question about crystals
« on: July 31, 2011, 06:30:55 PM »
Hi everyone!

What a great way to have my first post, but if anyone remembers Macy from Catster, he had a bad problems with blockage and crystals.  After surgery he did great for 10 months and started with the crystals again.  I right now have him on the C/D dry and in all honesty do not think I will take him off it for the duration because I did switch him to Blue Buffalo dry and the crystals came back.  I have a few questions though, I am trying to find him a good wet that he will actually eat, since the last time we went through this I spent tons of money for him to just turn his head at all the foods I gave him.  I did find Royal Canine instinctive that he does appear to like and I add plenty of water to it.  I just want to make sure that what I am giving him will not add to the problem.  For example, the Royal Canine composition is: found here: http://www.royalcanin.us/documents/FelineNutAnalysis-Wet.pdf and the CD is here:

http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-cd-multicare-feline-bladder-health-with-chicken-canned.html

Right now I am concerned with the mineral content comparison to make sure that it is comparable with the C/D.  After I get him back in good health, I will work more on the better ingredients in the food.

My other question is this, how will I know that the C/D is effective?  I guess I am wondering how long it will take me to see results or improvement in his pee's.  At this point he has gone from squirting tiny bits to the size of maybe a walnut?  I really don't want him to block again and want to catch him before it gets to that point.

Thanks!


Offline Middle Child

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2011, 06:48:23 PM »
But the Royal Canin instinctive isn't prescription is it?  The RC prescription is the SO 33. My opinion, especially for a male cat who has blocked, is keep him on the prescription food, if that is what works for him.

I'm in the same boat.  I have a female cat on Hills Prescription c/d kibble.  She won't eat the Hills c/d canned.  She will eat the grain free canned I feed my other cats, and I have tried several times to put her on an all grain free canned diet, but the crystals always come back and the pH always shoots back up to 7.5.

My vet recommends testing 6 weeks after a diet change.  My girl gets blood work and a urine culture once a year.  Whenever I try to change her to regular grain free canned food I always start the change 2 months before she is due for those annual tests.  And I always end up having to put her back on the c/d kibble.  The ingredients read like a cheap grocery store food but the fact remains that it works.

I've considered trying her on the Royal Canin SO 33 canned.  But the price is prohibitive, and no vet around here carries it, so I can't even get some samples to try.  I won't feed the RC SO 33 dry, it has wheat gluten in it.  I won't feed the Purina UR ST/OX canned or dry because they contain menadione sodium bisulfite complex

So I always end up back where I started, with the Hills Prescription c/d kibble. It works for her, so I try to keep my worries over feeding her an all dry high carb diet to a low roar.

 I have to go with the lesser of two evils.  The two evils being: The diet I would prefer which would result in: crystals forming and UTIs, trips to the vet, frequent cystocentesis, antibiotics, or: the less than desirable food, testing once a year, no crystals or UTIs, happy kitty. Quality of life is the most important thing for her, and pain when you pee is not my idea of good quality of life.:)

Keep us posted on Macy.

PS Sometimes, if the urine is really chock full of struvite the vet will put the cat on the s/d for a short time.  The Hills Prescription s/d is not meant for long term use, only to get the cat stabilized, then put on the maintenance c/d multicare.

Offline Macy

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2011, 07:37:46 PM »
You are right it isn't prescription food, but the vet told me if I could try to find a non Rx food that was comparable to the C/D.  I THINK the RC is close, but I can never figure out how to compare the mineral contents of the foods.  I am wondering if it could be that Macy was also getting into Sonnys dry hairball, that is science diet.  I never realized that this type of food dehydrated, so that could be the culprit.

I know I have to get more moisture into him, but the only wet food he loves is either the soulistic or Meow Mix chicken and liver, which is just terrible for him.  I am at the point of just leaving him on dry with no wet what so ever and see what happens.

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2011, 08:07:37 PM »
You are right it isn't prescription food, but the vet told me if I could try to find a non Rx food that was comparable to the C/D.  I THINK the RC is close, but I can never figure out how to compare the mineral contents of the foods.  I am wondering if it could be that Macy was also getting into Sonnys dry hairball, that is science diet.  I never realized that this type of food dehydrated, so that could be the culprit.

I know I have to get more moisture into him, but the only wet food he loves is either the soulistic or Meow Mix chicken and liver, which is just terrible for him.  I am at the point of just leaving him on dry with no wet what so ever and see what happens.

That is what I have had to do with my FLUTD kitty. I worry about her water intake but she has blood work annually and the blood work indicates that she is not dehydrated. I worry about diabetes with her being on such a high carb diet, but I have to go with what is working for her in the here and now. She clearly is genetically prone to forming the struvite crystals, and somehow the Hills Prescription c/d multicare kibble prevents her from forming them. Her coat was so nice, this last time I tried to switch her over to a grain free canned diet. <sigh>  But I do give her the fish oil three times a week and that helps keep her coat nice, and it also is supposed to be good for her kidneys and her heart.

I'm not real good with making percentage comparisons either, especially when it's dry to wet.  Somehow they both have to be converted to "dry matter analysis".  And there is more to it than just the mineral load, anyway.  I'm no chemist or scientist or biologist so I don't understand all the wheretos and whyfores.  But I do know the Hills Prescrption c/d multicare kibble keeps her urine crystal free and at the proper pH, and that is the most important thing, for this particular cat.

Offline Lola

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2011, 09:10:33 PM »
My experience with crystals and blockages with our male cat...

First time, changed to a "quality" dry food AND wet.  
Second time was within months of the first time.  I changed him to an all wet grain free diet.  

Last 3 years, no issues.  (knock on wood)

We went through a LOT of hoops to get all the felines to eat wet.  If I had to do it all over again...I would sprinkle a little Fortiflora on the wet food, and the transition would be a done deal.  Fortiflora contains some of the same nasty addicting ingredients as dry food does...so the cats love it.  

Macy,
There is a TON of helpful info at this website:  http://www.catinfo.org  That website was a GREAT "back-up" to what my vet recommended and explained to me, as far as cats needing moisture IN their food and such.
The website is written by a vet that furthered her education in feline nutrition.  (The average vet has very litttttttle training in nutrition.)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 09:34:20 PM by Lola, Reason: added link »
Everything you NEED to know about caring for your feline. www.catinfo.org

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2011, 10:01:40 PM »
Macy, I am only going to reaffirm the sound advice you were given by Merlin and Shadow in your "Compare" thread  -- just please bear in mind that:

Cats have NO teeth which grind.
Their jaws do not rotate.
On top of not being able to chew something they were never meant to eat in the first place, they lack Amylase enzymes to even break it down.



Quote
If I could have the reader of this webpage take away just one word from this discussion, it would be "water".  If your cat is on a properly hydrated diet of 100% canned food - and no dry food - you stand a very good chance of never needing to read this webpage.  

Always keep in mind that water flowing through the urinary tract system is the most important factor in keeping it healthy.

Note that I said "water" - not "crystals" or "urine pH" - or any of the expensive prescription diets often recommended by veterinarians.

A cat's normal prey is ~70% water.  Canned food is ~78% water. Dry food is ~5-10% water. Cats have a low thirst drive and do not make up the deficit at the water bowl.  They are designed to get water with their food.

Cats on canned food have been shown to consume at least double the amount of water (from food and water bowl) when compared to a dry food-fed cat.

This results in approximately double the amount of urine flowing through the bladder.

Think of canned food as not only a proper diet for an obligate carnivore, in general (see Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition), but also understand that it is the healthiest way to keep your cat's bladder flushed out and 'happy'.

If you do not want to read this entire webpage, please at least scroll down to see Opie's pictures.  Opie is a very sweet, (previously dry food-fed) cat that suffered tremendously when his urethra became blocked in July 2008.... http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

Whether you believe ^ this Feline Specialist DVM or not, we're still stuck with the facts that a cat can't even chew the stuff.  If you'll notice, cats will merely shatter it (with their scissor-like teeth) or swallow it whole, thus all these common, man-made issues in cats today.

Unfortunately, due to the PFI having the $$$ to influence everyone, some people on catsfur mistake merely stating easily verifiable facts about cats as being "food snobs."  

All you have to do is look at your cat's mouth and non-rotating jaws to see the proof.

You can either believe what somebody is selling you and keep worrying about what lies down the road, or what is right before your eyes and some peace of mind.  Your choice  :)



« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 10:05:48 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2011, 10:49:01 PM »

 I have to go with the lesser of two evils.  The two evils being: The diet I would prefer which would result in: crystals forming and UTIs, trips to the vet, frequent cystocentesis, antibiotics, or: the less than desirable food, testing once a year, no crystals or UTIs, happy kitty. Quality of life is the most important thing for her, and pain when you pee is not my idea of good quality of life.:)
Keep us posted on Macy.

Yup, one day at a time.  :)    You have explored other options, so please don't take my (usual) post content as treading on your toes.  Just want to get some little-known facts  "out there" so people are aware. :)  Most people aren't.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 10:53:25 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Macy

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 08:44:59 PM »
Sorry I haven't updated, but I have been really busy working day and night shifts at work.  After about a week on the C/D Macy is back to normal, so for now I am going to stick with that while I try to find a good wet he will eat.  He likes the wellness pouches but I hate spending that much for him to just lick the gravy off and leave the food. catmilk1

Offline Lola

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 08:43:46 AM »
Sorry I haven't updated, but I have been really busy working day and night shifts at work.  After about a week on the C/D Macy is back to normal, so for now I am going to stick with that while I try to find a good wet he will eat.  He likes the wellness pouches but I hate spending that much for him to just lick the gravy off and leave the food. catmilk1

What worked for us to "win" over our kibble addicts...the grain free Wellness, with added water.  No grains for the kitty that had crystals and blockages.  (Don't want to go down THAT road a third time!)  The added water helped to make the food more "soupy," (ours were gravy lickers as well) and keep the boy's system flushed out.  

Glad to see you and kitty are both hanging in there!
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Offline Lola

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 01:15:15 PM »
How is Macy doing these days?   cat3
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Offline Macy

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 03:54:30 PM »
Sorry I haven't been back, I am finally getting normal hours at work so am back on the internet track again mol.  Macy did great for a few months and I got too comfortable and gave him some of his meow mix wet and here we go again.  Is it possible for only one container of the meow mix to cause crystals?

He is acting normal but twice has litterboxed and only a few drops have come out.  I am going to have to keep an eye on him and make sure he is better tomorrow or else back to the vet we go again.   :'(

Offline The Kittens

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2011, 07:02:54 PM »
Hi Macy!!  :-*

You HAVE to be diligent with this, mol, you HAVE to be, don't know what else to say, mol.  thumbsup1

It might not be the crystals, it might be a bladder inflammation. He feels he has to go all the time, even tho he doesn't, so he will get in the box, frequently, and only pee a little, cause, thats all that is in there. I went thru this with Prowler. His bladder walls were inflammed, because his urine was too concentrated.

He was getting wet, mixed with water, so it was real soupy, once a day. Now he HAS to have the increased water, twice a day, to keep his urine, diluted, per say.

Take him to the vet, do not wait, and ask them to do a clean catch, and check his urine concentration. They insert a needle into the bladder, and draw out the urine. It only takes a min, and they do not put them under, Prowler was fine.

Tell them to send it to Antech or Idexx.

I forget now what Macy is eating, or will eat or not eat, mol, but it is imperative, cannot stress this enough, they have to be on a grain free foodie, have to be fed wet, mixed with water, so its real soupy, twice a day.
You cannot use tap water, it has too many minerals in it, you have to use purified drinking water, and you have to put several bowls of water, thru out the house.

If you continue to feed him, foodies with grains in them, and your not increasing his water intake, to keep him flushed out, and keep his urine diluted, then yes, you will continue to have these problems. Once you have a crystal kitty, you have to do this, have to.   :-* thumbsup1 Bumpurr1 cat4 TexasFlag bumpgif 

Offline Macy

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2011, 07:40:27 PM »
Bump, I knew would be my hero~ cat4

What he eats right now is the C/D, I tried the Blue Wilderness and that was the first flare up.  What is weird now though is that I saw him spraying outside at it was a full rainbow stream and no licking afterwards, so maybe he had something stuck near his area that was poking him.  I am still going to watch him the next few days to make sure, and I am filling him up with yummy tuna juice in tons of water to try to flush him.  When I restrict him to  just the C/D he does fine, but I do treat him to the Meow Mix wet maybe once a week with extra water as a treat, but I guess that is going to have to stop now too, poor baby.  :(

Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2011, 10:05:48 PM »
Bump, I knew would be my hero~ cat4

What he eats right now is the C/D, I tried the Blue Wilderness and that was the first flare up.  What is weird now though is that I saw him spraying outside at it was a full rainbow stream and no licking afterwards, so maybe he had something stuck near his area that was poking him.  I am still going to watch him the next few days to make sure, and I am filling him up with yummy tuna juice in tons of water to try to flush him.  When I restrict him to  just the C/D he does fine, but I do treat him to the Meow Mix wet maybe once a week with extra water as a treat, but I guess that is going to have to stop now too, poor baby.  :(

Tuna juice is not a good treat for a cat who already has urinary tract issues. The high level of magnesium contributes to urinary tract disorders, including infections. See Why Fish is Dangerous for Cats and Eight strikes against fishy feeding.

Plain or filtered water (never distilled) is best.

Of course, getting him off the kibble is even better, but I know that's not something you're comfortable doing right now. <<HUGS>> for having to go through all of this.

AC
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Offline Lola

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Re: Question about crystals
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2011, 10:13:38 PM »

You HAVE to be diligent with this, mol, you HAVE to be, don't know what else to say, mol. 

If you continue to feed him, foodies with grains in them, and your not increasing his water intake, to keep him flushed out, and keep his urine diluted, then yes, you will continue to have these problems. Once you have a crystal kitty, you have to do this, have to. 
Tuna juice is not a good treat for a cat who already has urinary tract issues. The high level of magnesium contributes to urinary tract disorders, including infections. See Why Fish is Dangerous for Cats and Eight strikes against fishy feeding.

Plain or filtered water (never distilled) is best.

AC

I second alllll the above! 
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