Author Topic: How much more time should I give it?  (Read 7501 times)

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Offline Pookie

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How much more time should I give it?
« on: February 26, 2013, 06:24:44 PM »
For over a week now I've been giving Pookie foods that are carageenan-free in the hopes that the swelling I see on his bottom lip would go away.  I haven't noticed a difference, though it may be a little worse.   :( :(  How much more time should I give it?  I was going to give it 2 weeks but I would have thought I would see a change by now.  If it's something like xantham gum or guar gum or a combination of things causing this, how am I supposed to figure it out?  As much as I would like to go all raw with him, I just don't know how I can.   :-\  Sourcing is an issue, and I'm not sure he can handle raw as his first meal of the day or when I get home (he gets very excited).

Sigh . . . he's loved getting all the Weruva, though Bumpurr1 but it doesn't seem to satisfy him as much as some other foods like the Instinct.  *double sigh*
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 06:49:15 PM »
I can tell you from experience with Dannyboy that to find what they're allergic to--or bothers them in some way--is a hard and often long process. It took us 8 mths. of elimination diet to find out he was allergic to corn, wheat, AND rice.

Since the foods are all different, we ended up having to go with Natural Balance food for dogs to eliminate EVERYTHING else he'd been eating before. Different protein, different carbs, different altogether. We could have stopped right there because he completely cleared up within a month, completely symptom free, but it was necessary to find out what it was to make sure he never got any treats with anything he was allergic to in the future. So we found things with single carbs and meats to test him.

You have to find something that has NONE of the things that can be suspect, then slowly, little by little, add one thing back and wait up to a month to see if it has an effect--it will usually show symptoms within a week, but we were advised a month.

Yeah, I know it sounds like a PITA...because it is. But that's how elimination diets are done.

Edit: I almost forgot...you have to give them a month between things you find that cause problems, to clear up completely, before you test another item.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 06:51:39 PM by DeeDee »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 09:33:55 PM »
Weruva is high in carbs, and carbs make you hungry.  I notice my one cat who gets Weruva now and then also is very hungry, even after eating a big meal of it. I think it also has some of the gums in it doesn't it?

If he likes the Nature's Variety Instinct, how about starting with that for the elimination trials?  That doesn't have any gums does it? No grains either, though of course it's heavy on the fruits and veggies, and it doesn't specify what kind of lecithin is used.

It can take a month or six weeks for a bad reaction to an ingredient to totally subside, I think. It's all ingested, so it is going through every system in the body.  Who knows what organ might be storing some of it.

Is Pookie showing any signs of discomfort?  I know that may seem like a useless question since cats are so good at hiding illness, but..is he hesitant to eat, like the thing is hurting him? Are you giving him Krill oil?  Krill is an excellent anti-inflammatory, and maybe it will help that thing go down, that is, if you aren't already using it.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 11:00:39 PM »

If he likes the Nature's Variety Instinct, how about starting with that for the elimination trials?  That doesn't have any gums does it? No grains either, though of course it's heavy on the fruits and veggies, and it doesn't specify what kind of lecithin is used.


MC is probably right about NVI being the best choice to move to for the cleaning period for any species. I knew the canine varieties of Nature's Variety Instinct had Montmorillonite Clay (I'd have most likely picked this food for Danny if they'd had it back in the day), but I had to look to see if the canned cat formulas had it, and they do.

NVI lists it as an "anti-caking aid", but I wanted to know if there are any health benefits to it, so I looked it up to see what it might be used for as a supplement and it's a cleaner...if there are any toxins in Pookie's body, it MIGHT be worth trying NVI just to let the clay try to remove it from the body.

http://www.phmiracleliving.com/Articles/2006-10-27-Clay.html

Quote
The process works the same in the human body. When Montmorillonite Clay is taken internally the positively-charged exotoxins and mycotoxins are attracted by the negatively-charged edges of the clay mineral. An exchange reaction occurs; whereby, the clay swaps its ions for those of the other substance. Now electrically satisfied it holds the acidic toxin in suspension until the body can eliminate both. The term ‘active’ or ‘alive’ indicates the ionic exchange capacities of a given clay mineral. The degree to which the clay mineral ions become active determine its classification as ‘alive’. Living bodies are able to grow and change their form and function by taking within themselves ‘lifeless’ material of certain kinds; and, biologically transforming it into a part of themselves. No dead body can adsorb just as no dead battery can provide energy. It is, physically impossible. That is why Montmorillonite Clay is such a powerful substance.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 11:04:17 PM by DeeDee »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 09:09:35 AM »
Thanks, you two.  He's been getting NVI as part of his rotation, but just the rabbit and the duck (and he's not always a fan of the duck).  He doesn't care for the chicken, he can't tolerate the lamb and I'm avoiding the beef because right before I went grain-free with them, he was developing a problem with beef.

This is what he'd been getting before I stopped the carageenan foods:  Wellness Core (2 flavors), Go! grain-free (chicken, turkey & duck), and Instinct rabbit and duck.  Wellness and Go! both had carageenan, so I had to replace those with Weruva (yeah, wasn't happy about all the potato starch) and a couple other brands that I was able to find.  He didn't seem to care for the Tikicat (wow is that stuff expensive) or the other brand, and I gave him Taste of the Wild Rocky Mountain Feline (a lot of fish) which he did eat, but I think that added to the lip swelling.

I think all of these foods contain at least 1 of the gums, including NVI.   :(  I'm not sure there are any canned foods that DON'T have xantham or guar gum.

Nope, no signs of discomfort on Pookie's part.  It's just this has been going on for a while now (2 years or more I think?), and I haven't been able to really work on this until now.  I think I mentioned it to the vet and his response was probably something like "I wouldn't worry about it."   bangshead  Which is what he said about Pookie's sister when she started with the burping/lip-smacking, and THAT didn't work out well.  He tends to be very laid-back about things.  Maybe I worry too much, but I don't like it.  I wish I had a good holistic vet near me, but no such luck.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 10:52:53 AM »
Since people use it...maybe you could find the clay and mix it in the foods Pookie DOES like to try to clean out toxins? I know they sell it human grade from last night's research. But you have to make sure it's "living clay" and not one of the other types like the stuff in kitty litter.

Wish I had a better idea, but other than finding commercial raw, that's the only thing I can come up with for you.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 11:22:14 AM »
Dee, I was thinking the same thing about the clay, as a toxin cleansing agent. 

Pookie, NVI has no gums at all in it. But I understand the frustration, the food can't help if the cat won't eat it!

Of course, that's why I turned to raw, I just could not find enough canned foods that I would let two of my cats eat, that they actually would eat.

Yeah, the Tiki is outrageous in price.  I refuse to buy it, for that reason. I'd like to try it, the chicken only.  But why would I spend so much on a canned food when I can get commercial raw for the same price, or cheaper.

Vets can make you crazy with their "I wouldn't worry about it" attitudes can't they.  I'm with you, I worry, too. My vet is always very empathetic with my worrying, thank goodness.

Did you see my question about krill oil for use as an anti-inflammatory?

Offline DeeDee

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 11:36:13 AM »

Did you see my question about krill oil for use as an anti-inflammatory?

Krill would be a great idea b/c you said something about Pookie liking a fishy food. Putting it on food might get Pookie to eat things that are normally rejected. Then there are the health benefits of it!

I'd read up on it though and try to find a brand that's been tested for contaminates--like mercury--that a lot of brands don't care about protecting you from as long as they get their money. Things like mercury are going to hurt Pookie's little body a lot faster than it would hurt us.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 11:47:33 AM »
Did you see my question about krill oil for use as an anti-inflammatory?
Sorry, I knew I missed something!   funny2  No, I haven't tried krill oil, though I did try salmon oil capsules (punctured the gelcap and squeezed the oil into the food) and he had no interest in it.   bangshead bangshead bangshead  As much as he likes the fishy foods (which I rarely if ever give), for some reason he didn't want the food with the salmon oil mixed in.   :-\  This is the brand I was using (the capsule version), which is mercury-free:  http://www.thewholisticpet.com/products/canine-product-line/health-care-supplements/wholistic-wild-deep-sea-salmon-oiltm.html.

This is probably a stupid question, but is krill oil very different from salmon oil?  Is one better than the other?

I think I had mentioned the clay to my vet a few years ago, when trying to deal with Pookie's sister's issues, and he didn't recommend it.  I don't remember why.  When I have more time, I'll read the links you've provided . . . maybe if I feel more comfortable with it, I could try it.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 11:50:45 AM »
I use this brand for my cats:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O1Y4C2/ref=rcxsubs_mys2_product_title

Info on this brand here:

http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements/Products-by-Category/Nutritional-Oils/Fish-Omega-3-Krill-Oils/061193.htm

Quote
Neptune Krill Oil is manufactured under strict quality control standards. It is tested to be free of potentially harmful levels of contaminants (i.e. mercury, heavy metals, PCB's, dioxins, and other contaminants).

more detailed info on the benefits, though it is kind of technical

http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/FAQs/081008.htm


Offline Pookie

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 11:55:20 AM »
Pookie, NVI has no gums at all in it. But I understand the frustration, the food can't help if the cat won't eat it!

Of course, that's why I turned to raw, I just could not find enough canned foods that I would let two of my

Didn't realize that about the NVI.  That's good to know.

I've been wondering if I make his 1st breakfast the canned, then 2nd breakfast raw, and do the same at dinner, if he'd be better able to keep the raw down instead of giving him raw as his 1st meal?  *sigh*  There's 1 way to find out, but I don't look forward to scrubbing carpet if I'm wrong . . . again.   :(  Actually, it's not so much the carpet scrubbing that bothers me as the fact that he horked.  I feel so sorry for him when that happens.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »
Thanks, MC!  I foresee my head going into spinning mode soon . . .  :D
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 12:04:43 PM »
Didn't realize that about the NVI.  That's good to know.

I've been wondering if I make his 1st breakfast the canned, then 2nd breakfast raw, and do the same at dinner, if he'd be better able to keep the raw down instead of giving him raw as his 1st meal?  *sigh*  There's 1 way to find out, but I don't look forward to scrubbing carpet if I'm wrong . . . again.   :(  Actually, it's not so much the carpet scrubbing that bothers me as the fact that he horked.  I feel so sorry for him when that happens.

That is how I feed SK.  She regurgitates if her tummy gets too empty (or too full).  I give her about .4 (point four) of an ounce of canned food, then wait a half hour before giving her any other food, raw or canned, either one.

By the way, she doesn't like krill oil either.  Or at least, she thinks she doesn't.  I don't mix her krill into her food.  I squirt it on top in one little spot, and then sprinkle a little Vets-Best hairball relief (her topper of choice) over that one spot. So she still gets the rest of her food not tasting like krill, and she doesn't mind the krill dusted with the Vets'-Best.

Offline Pookie

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 12:08:14 PM »
By the way, she doesn't like krill oil either.  Or at least, she thinks she doesn't.  I don't mix her krill into her food.  I squirt it on top in one little spot, and then sprinkle a little Vets-Best hairball relief (her topper of choice) over that one spot. So she still gets the rest of her food not tasting like krill, and she doesn't mind the krill dusted with the Vets'-Best.

Hmmm ... I could try that, using crumbled PureBites treats as the topper.  That's what I use on food he's not interested in to get him to eat it.  Thanks MC!   :-* :-* HeadButt HeadButt
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: How much more time should I give it?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 12:09:32 PM »


I've been wondering if I make his 1st breakfast the canned, then 2nd breakfast raw, and do the same at dinner, if he'd be better able to keep the raw down instead of giving him raw as his 1st meal?  *sigh*  There's 1 way to find out, but I don't look forward to scrubbing carpet if I'm wrong . . . again. 

You might want to do what I was told to do with Barkly when I was transitioning him. In his case it was give him only a teaspoon full at a time 3x a day until he was up to a full meal. With a cat it would be a lot less though...probably just a pinch.

I'd wait at least 3 days with the tiny pinch then add a little at a time until Pookie was up to a full meal. I can also tell you from personal human perspective, red meats are a LOT harder to digest than pork or birds (and red can cause severe stomach upset because of that). A lot of people will scoff about our pets being anything like us at all, but I don't believe it. I think they are pretty close to us when it comes to certain things--otherwise, why would scientists use them for guinea pigs?

I wouldn't want to feed raw pork to an animal though just due to the trichinosis parasite risk.

"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

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