Roxy's Vet Visit (and more)

[Lola]

continued from:  http://parenting-furkids.com/index.php?topic=3042.0

I'm going to post what info may be relevant and what comes to mind, concerning the vet visit and Roxy's history.  I am pretty bummed out right now, so I may need to edit...as I remember details.

I took Roxy to the vet today.  It is like the stuff is taking over her head!  Not only is the chin acne worse, her left ear is screaming red... with a bunch of little red bumps.  Today the red bumps showed up on the outside of her ear as well.  And the other ear is also now nasty.  She is now scratching and "flicking" little red specks.   

1.  Keep in mind, this is the vet that "introduced" me to wet food many years ago...which started my "research" into pet food ingredients, pet food companies, etc. 
2.  I was pretty sure he wasn't a raw food cheer leader.  I got the impression that he feels it isn't all it is "cracked up" to be.  Today he confined that. 
3.  He wasn't happy when I declined some kind of Hill's teeth cleaning kibble krap, after another cat had a dental cleaning. 
4.  NORMALLY, he and I can agree to disagree. 
5.  This vet is the best of what is available.  I've gone to many, and I always end up back with him.  The holistic vets here are not true holistic vets. 
6.  I don't think on my feet.  I don't have the smarts, memory, or the confidence to "argue" a point with him...when it comes to something he STRONGLY believes in. 

The outside enclosure has been closed off for two weeks, due to rain and the bugs.  Hoping anything that could be lurking outside is a non-issue.
She was eating from a flat metal dish.  Her dish is washed in hot soapy water, after every meal.  I have since changed her to a Corelle dish...just in case. 
Roxy has always been more sensitive to foods/proteins than the others.  She is the reason I slowly add in a different protein.  She is currently eating chicken, duck, rabbit, and turkey.
Roxy is/was a chronic barfer.  Last December, I started giving her Pepcid.  She currently is given 1/2 of 10mg of Pepcid.  The barfing stopped. 
I've recently started feeding raw chicken.  She gets half raw and half canned for every meal.
Let me back up a bit.  Before the Pepcid, I was able to slow down the barfing by not feeding beef, not feeding certain brands, not feeding foods with certain ingredients, making sure she eats every 8 hours, etc.  There are probably other things, that I can't remember.  We make changes as needed, and it all just becomes the norm. 

With that said...

The vet's best guess is food allergy.  The only change has been the addition of real raw.  Since I feed a variety of foods, he STRONGLY recommended... wait for it...  Hills Venison d/d. 

Ingredients list for the wet:
Venison, Water, Venison Liver, Ground Green Pea, Pea Protein Concentrate, Soybean Oil, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Iron Oxide, Calcium Sulfate, Iodized Salt, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (source of vitamin C), Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Niacin, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

Ingredients list for the kibble:
Ground Yellow Peas, Pea Protein Concentrate, Venison, Ground Green Peas, Pork Fat, Powdered Cellulose, Calcium Sulfate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Fish Oil, Lactic Acid, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Glyceryl Monostearate, Iodized Salt, Potassium Sulfate, Dicalcium Phosphate, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Cysteine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Mixed Tocopherols for freshness, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Natural Flavors.

Let's pretend the above Hills food has no crapy ingredients, dry is what every carnivore should be eating, and Hills is an ethical company.  I DETEST Hills.  Hills "owns" vet schools...and vets.  Their "food" is HIGHLY over-priced, for what the ingredients are.   Let's not forget Robin Olson, who recently toured the company.  Her FIRST HAND experience/info.  She can be unbiased because Hills isn't teaching, funding, forcing up-selling, giving kick-backs, and brain washing her. 
http://coveredincathair.com/content/hill’s-pet-nutrition-center-tour-part-one

Back to vet visit.  He mentioned why Roxy's problem couldn't be environmental or stress...something about the problem having to do with living spores or microcosms. 
He gave her an anti-inflammatory shot.  He also did a "cytology in house."  She goes back in 3 weeks. 

My choices:
1.  Feed Roxy only one brand/protein of wet food that she normally eats.  I'm leaving raw out of consideration, because MAYBE there is something in the vitamins and minerals that is causing the problem.  I know it is possible to develop an allergy, to a food that previous had no issues, but... I'm thinking something new would be more likely...or should at least be ruled out first. ??
2.  Feed the wet version of the venison Hills... against every part of my being. 
3.  Feed a decent brand that mfg venison.  If Roxy has developed an allergy to chicken, turkey, or rabbit... ANY brand should fix the situation.  Yes?

Going by different things that were said...
I believe he wants to "prove" that Hills is the cure.  I wish I could say that he picked a brand and a protein that I don't feed... except he he didn't ask what proteins I feed, he knows I DETEST Hills, and he apparently drank the Hills kool-aid. 

If I don't go with the Hills...I need to figure out a fix, before her next vet visit! 

[DeeDee]

living spores

Has he tested her for a dermal fungus? If the case that he suggested were the actual cause, then the word "spores" in itself indicates to me that it's something that's usually fungal by definition.

How about putting some http://www.drugs.com/vet/earmed-boracetic-flush.html on a cotton ball and cleaning the areas? That stuff worked wonders with Dannyboy's ear infections that were fungal based.

Even monostat works with fungal infections on skin, but I'd not want to use that since it's a cream and more of it would be ingested during bathing.

If she got a fungal infection that started at her mouth, then her paws are going to spread it to wherever she rubs when bathing.

That's the only thing I've got.

[Pookie]

 

From the description, I'm leaning towards some sort of allergy, though I don't think I've ever heard of a food allergy causing that kind of reaction.  That doesn't mean it's not possible (it's not like I've heard everything).

1.  You could try the Vetericyn on her rash.  Mo's used it for other things and liked it, and I doubt it could hurt to try it.
2.  Forget the Hills.
3.  If you want to try a novel protein, e.g. venison, I believe Evo has canned venison for cats.  There may be another company that also has venison, but it's not coming to mind at the moment.  You could also try duck, which is available by Nature's Variety Instinct, and I think Evo.  Duck is considered a "cool" protein compared to beef, lamb and venison in Chinese Herbal Medicine, and perhaps that would help "cool" things down?  I will say, though, the vet told me yesterday that there can be cross-contamination in any commercial food, and I re-read certain chapters of Your Cat last night that stated that a cat can react to any of the ingredients in a commercial food, which is why she recommends all raw for IBD kitties.
4.  I'm not sure I understood, so just looking to verify -- you're going to stop giving Roxy the raw for now?
5.  I think Dee may be on to something about Roxy spreading it via grooming (in which case it could be a fungus).  The vet's statement about a fungus not being environmental just makes no sense to me.
6.  Is it possible that the formula for one (or more) of the canned foods has changed?  Perhaps it's a batch issue?

That's all I've got for now. 

[Lola]

Has he tested her for a dermal fungus? If the case that he suggested were the actual cause, then the word "spores" in itself indicates to me that it's something that's usually fungal by definition.

How about putting some http://www.drugs.com/vet/earmed-boracetic-flush.html on a cotton ball and cleaning the areas? That stuff worked wonders with Dannyboy's ear infections that were fungal based.

Even monostat works with fungal infections on skin, but I'd not want to use that since it's a cream and more of it would be ingested during bathing.

If she got a fungal infection that started at her mouth, then her paws are going to spread it to wherever she rubs when bathing.

That's the only thing I've got.

I don't know what the heck he tested her for.  When I didn't jump all over the idea of feeding Hills, the appointment went downhill FAST.  I don't know what I triggered in him.  I MUST have been making an "anti-Hills face! 
I did ask if there was a test that could be done, to find out what the protein trigger is.  In my little pointed head... it seemed like the easiest solution.  His answer... "You could spend 300 on a test, OR you could just feed what science has proven... yadda, yadda, yadda."   
The vet that I USED to know would have been open to me feeding one brand/protein of my choice.   

It was just all TOOOOO weird.  I'm still stunned. 

Whatever caused Roxy's problem...I still wanted to know if the chin acne was related to the ear problem.  Did she spread it to her ears?  He checked her paws... don't know if he found anything.  Don't know if she spread something from her paws to her chin and then to her ears...or what!  He looked at her teeth... don't know if it is a possible dental issue. I don't know ANYTHING, except it isn't ear mites.  I wasn't "allowed" to ask any questions.  The entire visit was a nightmare!  Unreal. 

BTW...The anti-inflammatory injection was cortisone.  I just Googled cortisone and cats.  Now, I know why he said (sarcastically)... "I would like to give her a cortisone shot, to give her some relief...if you will let me." 

His plan... the cortisone will clear her up for now.  The Hills will keep her cleared for life. 

[Lola]

I NEED a vet.  Believe it or not he is the best available to me... within of HUNDREDS of miles!  Unfortunately now I know, anything possibly food related, is going to send him over the edge.  I need to figure out Roxy's problem, without his help.  I don't know how long cortisone lasts...

IF Roxy is having an allergic reaction to a particular protein... then this test would give me the answer.  Am I even sorta thinking straight? 
http://www.hemopet.org/hemolife-diagnostics/nutriscan-food-sensitivity-intolerance.html

PS  Pookie, I'm not ignoring you.  I will answer you... later.

[DeeDee]

If it's a food allergy. Cortisone isn't going to do a darned thing for it. Never does animals with food allergies. Only lessens the effects of their allergy. I'm still leaning toward going back to old diet for now and treating her for a fungus--just to see. If he didn't do a skin scraping, he didn't do a smear to see if there's a fungus like ringworm there. Ringworm doesn't always cause a ring. It can be a general, crusty rash--and it WILL spread, and humans can get it from them. I know he was a dog, but a skin scraping is the first thing they did when Dannyboy started the skin problems. They suspected a fungus infection b/c it was crusty, and just didn't look like mange.

Cortisone shots usually lasted anywhere from 2-4 weeks with Dannyboy. He got them for 3 months until I figured out we had a food problem--thanks to Pedigree of all groups. There was a dog show on TV, and they were talking about dogs with food allergies. That's when the elimination diet started with Natural Balance being the new food to add things into to test once he initially cleared up.

I thought about not doing the elimination diet at all, but then we'd never be able to give him treats or anything else without doing it. Thirteen years ago there were hardly any options at all.

Does what she have look like ANY of these?  https://www.google.com/search?q=cat+fungal+infection+skin&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=YfghVITIF42dyATwzYLIAw&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Yes, that Hemolife test will tell you what the sensitivities are. Or you can find something that works, then add things in a little at a time to test.

[Middle Child]

Oh gosh Lola, I am so sorry about all this. I don't have anything intelligent to say tonight, but didn't want to read and run.

My first thought was the alnutrin...that being the main change. I'll re-read and post more intelligently (I hope) in the morning

[Pookie]

PS  Pookie, I'm not ignoring you.  I will answer you... later.

No worries, Lola, I know you have a lot on your mind right now. 

My first thought was the alnutrin...that being the main change. I'll re-read and post more intelligently (I hope) in the morning

OMG, MC, you are a GENIUS!     I had completely forgotten about that!  Absolutely, perhaps there's something in there that's affecting her (I forget what's in it, but it IS new to her).  As much as I hate to say it, pull the raw (I think you were going to if I read your earlier post correctly).  Look at the info Dee's provided, too, as well as the Hemopet (I haven't looked at the site yet to get the details).

If it IS a food allergy, pretty much it's a matter of keeping a food journal (I think you already are) to find a pattern, and doing an elimination diet.  The vet I saw yesterday mentioned the journal and a novel protein, so in Roxy's case, you could try venison or duck (and we know SHE'LL decide what she's willing to try   ).  Rabbit would be the other one, but you already feed that.  But I would DEFINITELY pull the raw first, just to see if that is the issue.

If you can, try to compare when the acne started to the journal to see what changed.  If it started around the time that you added the raw (with Alnutrin), then that may very well be the culprit.  If nothing seems to match, consider the test(s) and/or elimination diet/novel protein.  You may also want to do a consult with Dr. Pierson.  Perhaps she'll have some suggestions as to what to test for or try. 

[Middle Child]

How is Roxy?  If the cortisone was going to help, it should have by now, any improvement?

I don't know...this doesn't sound like a food allergy to me, but I'm no expert on food allergies.  This does sound more fungal to me, the way it has spread. But what on earth from?

Ugh, I feel your pain, with the lack of veterinary choices.  My vet knows I hate Hills too, but it doesn't bother her.

Have you done any research?  have you gone back to her former diet, for just her, to see if she improves?  That will tell us if it is food related at least.

[Lola]

If it's a food allergy. Cortisone isn't going to do a darned thing for it. Never does animals with food allergies. Only lessens the effects of their allergy. I'm still leaning toward going back to old diet for now and treating her for a fungus--just to see. If he didn't do a skin scraping, he didn't do a smear to see if there's a fungus like ringworm there. Ringworm doesn't always cause a ring. It can be a general, crusty rash--and it WILL spread, and humans can get it from them. I know he was a dog, but a skin scraping is the first thing they did when Dannyboy started the skin problems. They suspected a fungus infection b/c it was crusty, and just didn't look like mange.

Cortisone shots usually lasted anywhere from 2-4 weeks with Dannyboy. He got them for 3 months until I figured out we had a food problem--thanks to Pedigree of all groups. There was a dog show on TV, and they were talking about dogs with food allergies. That's when the elimination diet started with Natural Balance being the new food to add things into to test once he initially cleared up.

I thought about not doing the elimination diet at all, but then we'd never be able to give him treats or anything else without doing it. Thirteen years ago there were hardly any options at all.

Does what she have look like ANY of these?  https://www.google.com/search?q=cat+fungal+infection+skin&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=YfghVITIF42dyATwzYLIAw&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Yes, that Hemolife test will tell you what the sensitivities are. Or you can find something that works, then add things in a little at a time to test.

The cortisone was to give her relief now.  The "cure" is the Hills. 
I am staying with the old diet... minus the raw.  We stopped the raw late last week.  NOT because of me suspecting raw... because of the added vitamins and minerals.  Maybe.
The vet did scrap her one ear and chin.  I assume that is the "cytology in house," I mentioned. 
No, her "sores" don't look anything like the pictures in the link.  Looks exactly like chin acne.

[Lola]

Oh gosh Lola, I am so sorry about all this. I don't have anything intelligent to say tonight, but didn't want to read and run.

My first thought was the alnutrin...that being the main change. I'll re-read and post more intelligently (I hope) in the morning

It was mine too... for the same reasons.  But I can't imagine why a reaction to vitamins and minerals. 

Ingredients: Egg yolk powder, taurine, iodized salt, vitamin E, iron amino acid chelate, copper citrate, manganese amino acid chelate, zinc oxide, vitamin D3, folic acid, vitamin B12, vitamin B1./quote]

[DeeDee]

The "cure" is the Hills.

I don't know whether to laugh in derision, or ask for his name so I can go bop him on the head. How the heck is a bunch of sawdust and grain going to cure anything?

I missed the "in house cytology." I wonder if it's shown anything yet? It shouldn't be over a week at most before he knows something if he didn't send it somewhere.

IS the cortisone helping show any improvement?

[Lola]

From the description, I'm leaning towards some sort of allergy, though I don't think I've ever heard of a food allergy causing that kind of reaction.  That doesn't mean it's not possible (it's not like I've heard everything).

1.  You could try the Vetericyn on her rash.  Mo's used it for other things and liked it, and I doubt it could hurt to try it.
2.  Forget the Hills.
3.  If you want to try a novel protein, e.g. venison, I believe Evo has canned venison for cats.  There may be another company that also has venison, but it's not coming to mind at the moment.  You could also try duck, which is available by Nature's Variety Instinct, and I think Evo.  Duck is considered a "cool" protein compared to beef, lamb and venison in Chinese Herbal Medicine, and perhaps that would help "cool" things down?  I will say, though, the vet told me yesterday that there can be cross-contamination in any commercial food, and I re-read certain chapters of Your Cat last night that stated that a cat can react to any of the ingredients in a commercial food, which is why she recommends all raw for IBD kitties.
4.  I'm not sure I understood, so just looking to verify -- you're going to stop giving Roxy the raw for now?
5.  I think Dee may be on to something about Roxy spreading it via grooming (in which case it could be a fungus).  The vet's statement about a fungus not being environmental just makes no sense to me.
6.  Is it possible that the formula for one (or more) of the canned foods has changed?  Perhaps it's a batch issue?

That's all I've got for now. 

Reputable (IMHO) online vets state that food allergies aren't common.  A better description is "food sensitivity."  Probably similar to barf and regurgitate... in my world.     
Roxy is doing much better!!  Her ear is almost totally back to normal.  Her chin is clearing up by leaps and bounds as well.  So, the cortisone did its job.  Hopefully nothing more. 
Yes, we stopped the raw last week.  Hubby slipped up twice.  There is now a reminder posted on the counter, where we prepare their meals... "No raw for Roxy."  In his defense We both have pretty wacky schedules, so we aren't always completely coherent at their meal times.  We stay with the schedule because... no matter what is going on, one of us is always home at 6, 2, and 10.  Not always awake, but always home. 
I did look at brands of venison, but I think I'm going to stick with the "old" food for now... as long as all is going well.  I want to see what I can find out about the Alnutrin... if anything.  If it is "cleared," I will do the sensitivity test offered by Dr. Dodds.  Maybe it includes vitamins and minerals... I will have to go look.  That would be TOO easy! 
Your # 5 and 6... I just don't know.  I'm thinking one step at at time...
   

[Lola]

Stop posting, while I am replying.... I can't keep up!! 

[Lola]

How is Roxy?  If the cortisone was going to help, it should have by now, any improvement?

I don't know...this doesn't sound like a food allergy to me, but I'm no expert on food allergies.  This does sound more fungal to me, the way it has spread. But what on earth from?

Ugh, I feel your pain, with the lack of veterinary choices.  My vet knows I hate Hills too, but it doesn't bother her.

Have you done any research?  have you gone back to her former diet, for just her, to see if she improves?  That will tell us if it is food related at least.

I think you posted, while I was writing a reply.  Do I repeat myself or just have you read up.  lol  Roxy is doing AWESOME.    Either the cortisone did the job (and nothing bad), or going back to her "old" food only did.  Roxy is the only one on the "old" feeding plan.  Everyone else is continuing on... no issues.  Not that I wish this on anyone else, but that also makes me scratch my head. 
The vet said that pets are more likely to develop an allergy to something they are already eating... and not necessarily something new.  I have read that, from other sources as well.  And I would go with it, IF I hadn't added in something new.   I mean... it seems (to me) The norm is to suspect the new thing first.
Food allergy (under the circumstances) makes sense.  BUT I don't know what to think about the chin thing going on first... and then the ears.  Did she spread it to her ears...OR were both happening at once, and I didn't notice the ears until they were REALLY bad. 
I've gone to this vet office on and off for over 30 years.  I never left because of him.  I left due to other vets that used to work there...and the standards at the time...before he went solo and bought the business.  I've always liked him personally.  I liked that he was open minded.  I liked that he was always learning something new.  There were times he gave his point of view and reasons...I gave mine.  He may not have agreed with me, but he gave me the final decision.  NEVER a hint of attitude.  He was unrecognizable the other day!  He wasn't just having a bad day.  He was HORRIBLE.  I wouldn't have been able to ask him what time it was... he would have cut me off mid-sentence and gave me attitude.