Author Topic: Arrows & ACV  (Read 34913 times)

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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2014, 08:06:16 PM »
Looks like I need to keep records for SEVERAL reasons.   :-[
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2014, 10:10:50 PM »
I'm going to explain this, because it has been driving me nuts.  :)
At one time, I was checking the reviews (here) on Nature Variety Instinct flavors.  That lead me to looking at different flavors of BY NATURE.  I normally only feed the organic one.  BUT...after reading...the duck and rabbit sounded as good (or better) than NV.  The non organic and organic packaging is different... and with my limited brain cells... I was thinking it was Nature Variety. 

The down side is... at the moment, I'm still only feeding two brands...more often than not.  Stella & Chewys is in the rotation, but not nearly as often as I would like.  I have recently ordered Weruva chicken something. I would REALLY like to permanently replace Wellness. 

I'm stlll an airhead, but at least now I KNOW where it was that I went into air-head mode.  *sigh*
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2014, 04:44:47 AM »
 funny2 funny2

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2014, 10:52:10 PM »
I saw this earlier somewhere when reading, and since you're getting your cats' blood-work recently, I thought you might want to read it. It's a paper on a lot of "normals" but this one was specifically about blood-work and how to read it:

http://zimmer-foundation.org/sch/ajf.html

Quote
The purpose of this paper is to give a general overview of the two most commonly ordered blood tests, the Chemistry Profile and the Complete Blood Count (CBC).  Simplified tables are provided with the most common values included on these tests, what normal values generally look like, and some notes about what body systems are generally responsible for changes in values.  In many cases, of course, such as electrolytes (sodium, potassium, chloride), virtually any system imbalance can lead to secondary or tertiary abnormalities.  In order to determine the primary cause of an abnormal value, the total clinical picture MUST be considered all together.  In addition, multiple blood values must be considered together, because one often influences another, and because many diseases tend to display a pattern.  Although it is a complex topic, there are some generalizations that can be made to help understand what some of the values are telling us.

There were a lot of other sections in that paper covering a LOT of aspects of a feline workup.
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2014, 09:23:37 AM »
Thanks DeeDee.  I wonder if it is "generic" type of info...as far as reading and understanding blood work.  I'm often afraid to read anything, if I am not familiar with the author... especially for cats. 
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2014, 09:26:08 AM »
It hasn't been going well for Arrows.  I started him on Pepcid yesterday.  I hope I am doing the right thing...
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2014, 02:39:12 PM »
Not to make you crazy . . . I'm just wondering if, like Mazy, he needs more acid, not less.  But then, these days I tend to want to do the opposite of what a vet recommends.  In your case, you like/trust your vet, and I'm certainly no expert on what's going on with Arrows.  Your vet could be right and I'm just paranoid.

Have you noticed any pattern?  Perhaps he's developing a food allergy to something?

Crossing paws and fingers Arrows feels better!  fingerscrossed
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2014, 02:56:42 PM »
Not to make you crazy . . . I'm just wondering if, like Mazy, he needs more acid, not less.  But then, these days I tend to want to do the opposite of what a vet recommends.

Crossing paws and fingers Arrows feels better!  fingerscrossed

That's what I'm wondering just because of my own experience with my own stomach. Pepcid and other things like Zantac only held it off, didn't make it better. You can't quit using it. Apple Cider Vinegar with the Mother in it fixed it for the most part--except now as I know, with my food allergies. I was only using it at dinnertime at the end to make sure I didn't get sick while I was sleeping.

The main part of things like Pepcid that scares me is the ruining of your bones.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:58:17 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2014, 04:56:40 PM »
Not to make you crazy . . . I'm just wondering if, like Mazy, he needs more acid, not less.  But then, these days I tend to want to do the opposite of what a vet recommends.  In your case, you like/trust your vet, and I'm certainly no expert on what's going on with Arrows.  Your vet could be right and I'm just paranoid.

Have you noticed any pattern?  Perhaps he's developing a food allergy to something?

Crossing paws and fingers Arrows feels better!  fingerscrossed

Just to clarify:
I like my vet, because ... other choices are MAJOR stinky!   
He doesn't upsell AT ALL. 
If I have knowledge about something, or a belief in something in particular, he is willing to "go with me."  He will explain his reasons, but I get the final word.  No eye rolling.  No condescending remarks. 
Last but not least...he has been a vet for 30 years, but never seems to lose interest in learning new things or changing old beliefs.   

My "problem" with him is... He may believe wet is better, but only in particular situations.  He hasn't reached the point of believing that all KIBBLE is KRAP, and is the cause of so mannnnnny feline issues and diseases.  Therefore, I tend to wonder how often he "misses the boat," if he doesn't get it. 

I am guessing that Arrow's "guts" have issues from his kibble days.  I ASSuME the issues are coming to a head, because he is getting older. ??

I'm open to trying ACV with mother.. a little afraid, but not against it. 

By the way... after the short discussion (a few days ago) about Pepcid, I lowered Roxy's dose.  She regurgitated.  The "good news" is... it looked exactly the same as the stuff Arrow's brings up.  So, I ASSuME it isn't anything Earth shattering, or Roxy would have been a goner a long time ago. 

To back up a bit...Roxy is the reason we do most of the things we do... or have changed, once she joined the family.  No feeding beef... smaller meals more often... never go 8 hours between meals... I don't know what else.  Things just became the "norm."   We "fix" something, when it needs to be fixed.  Until the next fix...

Roxy is also the reason that Pepcid didn't sound "off" to me, because it was recommended by a different vet.  And I know Mazy had taken it for a while.  She has been taking it for a year-ish, and it works.  Works... as in... I had no idea of the "silent" issues it could be causing. 

« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:58:57 PM by Lola »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2014, 04:50:35 AM »
I think the pepcid did help Mazy cat for a time.  But then 1) it stopped seeming to make any difference and 2) she started puking it (the quarter pill) right back up. By then I was using the SEB and that does seem to help, though I keep her on a low dose, 1/8 tsp a day.

The problem seems to be with these cats ruined by kibble....things we try work for a while, but then stop being effective.  I suspect that even with the pulse method the pepcid did cause her stomach to become too alkaline. 

So, I think starting with the pepcid is a good idea.  If it helps, good, you can work out a regimen.  If it doesn't help, move on to the next thing.

When you say it hasn't been going well for Arrows, what do you mean? Is he vomiting more again? Or regurgitating?  Is it that weird looking stuff?

Offline Pookie

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2014, 07:57:11 AM »
If my theory is correct, that years of a high-carb diet "train" the stomach to produce less acid, then IMO giving pepcid will continue that, when what may be needed is more acid to help with digestion, esp. since, in humans at least, the body produces less acid as we age.  Unless the vet can do a test (if one exists) to see just how much stomach acid Arrows is producing, then there's no way to be sure that he's producing too much and truly needs the pepcid.

This is all just my  2cents.  I just personally have an issue with acid blockers, because without stomach acid, the body isn't getting the vitamins/minerals/nutrients out of the food that it could be.

P.S.  Perhaps Roxy also could use the ACV?  Just tossing these ideas out there . . .
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2014, 12:35:17 PM »
I think the ACV is helping Mazy cat.

Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2014, 03:10:41 PM »
Just to make sure I am giving both of you all the facts and details...  (in no particular order)

Yes, Arrows started again.  :(  He has been with us for 4 years, and has never even brought up a hairball.  He eats from my plate (only very small amounts of feline safe foods), and has no problems.  He ate a pretty good size lizard once... no problem.  I'm sure if I thought long enough, I could come up with a ton of examples.  lol
Anyway...knowing me... I think I may have went into full panic, because I know barfing isn't normal and it is SO not him... and he's close to 10 years of age, and the Lucky situation, and it wasn't "chunky," like I would expect barf to be, and, the barf eaters not going near it, and, and, and I (maybe...hopefully) got stuck on it being blood.  Remembering now...Leonard threw up blood (at the end)... a lot of color difference. Arrows and Roxy... definitely brown.  Not red and not black.   

IF I understand the difference between barfing and regurgitating... Roxy has always been a regurgitator (new word).  I should say... episodes of regurgitating. 
She doesn't barf up hair balls.  She doesn't barf up food...at least not close to the time she ate it.  However, the beef issue was so long ago, I can't remember those details ... as far as what she did, that made me remove beef.  I do know removing beef stopped, whatever was going on, at the time. 

Roxy goes for looooong periods of time (mannnny months), before starting up again.   It I change something and she starts up... I change it back.  She doesn't go on for weeks.  I usually stumble on a fix pretty quickly... thanks to members here, 99.9% of the time.  :)   

When I lowered Roxy's Pepcid dose recently, and she regurgitated... seeing it, reminded me of what her "stuff" looks like, when she has issues.  It has been a long time...and my memory SUCKS normally... more so, when my head is spinning.  With Arrows "stuff" looking exactly like Roxy's... I came to the assumption it isn't blood.  Roxy couldn't possibly be bringing up blood for 4 years (that I know of)...could she?  Even if she only has issues twice a year... it still covers a 6 year period. 

Just to throw a bit more info out there...Roxy was fed kibble for 2 years.  Not that I think there is good kibble, but I'm willing to bet it was the worst of the worst.  She was ruined at two years old! 

Roxy takes 1/4 of a 10mg table 3 times a day.  I crush it into powder form, because ...no matter how well I hid it, she would find it and spit it out.   

If (when) I make the decision to give Arrows ACV... (it is a "go," as soon as we finish this discussion...unless something I have said, this time around, changes your thoughts)... Roxy will be given the same.

The "body not getting the vitamins, minerals, etc" made me think (uh oh) Roxy is ALWAYS ready to eat.  Not the normal "ready"... like some of the others.  She is the first one to let us know it is meal time.  She circles the counter, while it is bedding prepared.  She YELLS (sometimes growls), until her food is put down.  Her plate has to be put down first, or... she will make SURE the first plate down is hers.  She will FIGHT for the first serving.  Seniority means nothing to her.  ;)  Others do some talking, spinning, dancing, etc... but not to the extent she does. Just in case anyone is wondering, no one ever gets her food.  We keep watch, until everyone is finished eating. 
 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:15:56 PM by Lola »
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2014, 03:38:26 PM »
Well I'd seriously try it with Arrows for sure. And switch Roxy to it if you see no problems with Arrows. I'm kind of weird. I try it on one and then add it to the other one if there's no odd problems that crop up with the first tester after a week.

I just have no idea how much to give a cat. MC's the expert there. Vlad's been getting a teaspoon full at all 3 meals since his built-up intestinal gas that night. He burps a couple of times after eating now.

Hopefully your testing will work like Mazy and they'll voluntarily eat it like Mazy and Vlad do.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2014, 04:17:21 PM »
Quote
and he's close to 10 years of age, and the Lucky situation, and it wasn't "chunky," like I would expect barf to be,

But if you are feeding pate, why would the barf be chunky?  Mazy's barf is not chunky.  It's smooth (unless there is fur in it, which is rare), and the color of whatever she has just eaten.


Quote
IF I understand the difference between barfing and regurgitating... Roxy has always been a regurgitator (new word).  I should say... episodes of regurgitating.
She doesn't barf up hair balls.  She doesn't barf up food...at least not close to the time she ate it. 

Regurgitation is barfing up food after eating it.  I would say, within a half hour of eating... would be considered regurgitation.

Mazy rarely brings up hairballs.  What was happening for her was, the hairballs get stuck trying to pass, then she regurgitates daily until the fur works it's way through.  We don't have that problem any more, she just had a nice poop, in fact and it was full of fur.  No grass though, which is what I was looking for.

I think, Mazy's trouble is in part because of her reduced motility.  However, to be accurate, she was having this kind of hairball trouble as early as when she was not even 2 years old. So maybe she's always had motility issues, I don't know.  Hmmm...but she was already on the C/D when those troubles started.