Parenting-Furkids

Cats => Cat Food And Nutrition => Topic started by: Middle Child on June 26, 2014, 05:31:13 AM

Title: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Middle Child on June 26, 2014, 05:31:13 AM
Actual words from a veterinarian:

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No disrespect taken, all opinions are welcome here. Personally I don't get as religious about diets as some, most pets without specific medical problems would do well on most of the commercial diets.

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Carbs in cats is an interesting subject. An obligate carnivore, by definition, cannot synthesize certain nutrients and must get them from an animal source (not necessarily the meat, btw). If those nutrients are added to the diet the animal doesn't need meat. It certainly makes sense to feed a cat a diet that mimics its wild diet, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they can't do well on other diets.

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Think about it, if kibble were so horrible the millions of cats eating only kibble would have very high incidence of the diseases attributed by some to kibble. And they don't. Most do just fine.

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Cats are obligate carnivores because they can't synthesize certain nutrients from precursors found in non meat products so adding those specific nutrients to an all vegetable diet would meet their special nutritional needs. However, those nutrients only come from animal sources so it can never be a vegan diet. Bottom line, you can feed a carefully crafted meat free diet to an obligate carnivore but you cannot feed a vegan diet. They should have rabbits or guinea pigs as pets instead.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Pookie on June 26, 2014, 08:38:54 AM
 :o jawdrop   :'(  bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: DeeDee on June 26, 2014, 09:38:56 AM
Freaking PETA, no-meat-for-all quacks
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 26, 2014, 10:11:07 AM
While I'm no fan of PITA, don't know what they have to do with Vets being in the pockets of the PFI and profitting from all the Diabetic & blocking cats  -- not to mention the food they are "prescribing" and shilling-trolling the Internet as in the OP, lying to people.

The big question ought to be: HOW they are even allowed to lie to people like that to begin with. 
Example: To keep not just cats -- but Diabetic cats  -- on carbs -- how is that NOT malpractice, for starters?
And then there are the BVLOCKING cats, requiring $$$$$$$$$ PU Surgeries. 

HOW? Is. This. STILL. Being. So. WIDELY. ACCEPTED? 

That's what I wonder...
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 26, 2014, 10:27:16 AM
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Think about it, if kibble were so horrible the millions of cats eating only kibble would have very high incidence of the diseases attributed by some to kibble. And they don't. Most do just fine.

Tell it to these cats

www.diabeticcatcare.com
felinediabetes.com
yourdiabeticcat.com

And THOSE are just the ones with owners lucky to find, and desperate enough to fish for those sites!!!!   :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: DeeDee on June 26, 2014, 10:40:49 AM
While I'm no fan of PITA, don't know what they have to do with Vets being in the pockets of the PFI and profitting from all the Diabetic & blocking cats  -- not to mention the food they are "prescribing" and shilling-trolling the Internet as in the OP, lying to people.


When I start hearing about vegan and vegetarian-fed carnivore pets, PETA is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Here's their list with both vegetarian AND vegan options:

http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/companion-animal-food-guide/

Seriously? Those are diets for Carnivores?
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Pookie on June 26, 2014, 02:08:58 PM
Seriously? Those are diets for Carnivores?

sarcasmalert

But Dee!  Our housepets have adapted to these diets!  They're different from their wild ancestors!

[alert off]


HOW? Is. This. STILL. Being. So. WIDELY. ACCEPTED? 

That's what I wonder...

It's called "ignorance."  I think these vets, for the most part, truly believe what they're saying.  This is what they were taught, and they never clued in to the conflict of interest that should have been obvious when the PFI was providing them "educational" materials, along with free pet food.  And sadly, our society stopped teaching people to question authority a very long time ago.  The general public, myself included until I learned better, believes that the vets know what they're talking about, and the vets believe that the folks teaching them in school knew what they were talking about, so who are we/they to question anything? 

I already know what you're going to say:  did they not pay attention when learning the anatomy/physiology of these animals?  And my answer is:  I'm sure they did.  They just never made the connection between anatomy/physiology and diet.  FWIW, I didn't, either, for a long time.   :-[

Vets in particular are very focused on "evidence-based medicine" and "clinical trials."  Who's conducting those trials?  The PFI.  And if the clinical trials show X, then that's what we'll go with.  After all, sarcasmalert the PFI would never do anything to hurt their customers.  And besides, the FDA will protect the pets, right?  [alert off]  At least, that's what everyone thinks/believes, because they don't know better.  Even if they want to ask the questions, they probably don't know where to go to ask them, except the internet.  In my case, none of my searches (and these were searches like "cats vomiting," "cats regurgitating," "cats and IBD") turned up with anything useful until a co-worker suggested home-cooked diets, which eventually led me to catinfo.org.  That was 4-5 years ago, so hopefully people today would have better luck, but I don't know if they would.

It's been said on PFK before:  the only way things will improve is at the bottom, with pet parents putting this information out there the best way we can.  It will take a long time, but we will get there.  The Truth always comes out, eventually.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 26, 2014, 04:25:22 PM
When I start hearing about vegan and vegetarian-fed carnivore pets, PETA is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Oh certainly relate, DeeDee.   PETA is nuts.   Was too peeved about that shill MC wrote about.

You expect the over-the-top extreme nonsense from PETA, not from someone who (supposedly) took an oath to "Do no harm" to pets put into their "trusted care".     
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 26, 2014, 04:52:01 PM
Pookie, what I really wonder, though, is --

Let's take the "animal welfare and health/well-being" totally out of the equasion for one moment. 

 Put aside the Diabetes & dependance on Insulin & more vet visits; the blocking with the emergency catherisations, and the PU surgeries .  Let's put alllll the pain the pets, themselves, endure aside, for one moment.

How much is the inevitable PU surgery, which seem to average $3,000 and over for the surgery alone.
How much $$  is a bag of corn, glutens & sawdust running for frenzied pet owners because they are led to believe their pet will deteriorate (even more) & die if they don't feed it?     That stuff, alone, cost some major bucks! 

I guess if it was just one or the other, maybe it wouldn't be so bad? I don't know... add declawing, where even more issues come up...

Even with all the emotional aspects aside - lets forget them too.   I wonder this for those consumers who would be paying for services, and products, and expecting somewhat remotely reasonably decent in return --  for what they pay.   



Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Middle Child on June 26, 2014, 05:14:54 PM
Oh he believes what he says, no question.  He's been brainwashed, bought and packaged.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 26, 2014, 05:32:30 PM
To add, Pookie:

Am even more jaded because -- back throughout the recall catastrophe, frequented a pet forum where soooooo many people shared soooooo much information.  About the recalled foods themselves, about ingredients,  about everything to look out for.

Despite all that, and despite people still being there, it is TOTALLY backwards.  Try to pass on www.catinfo.org or anythign related and get flamed.  By people who, themselves ,  went there looking for infomation once and were helped !   Today those SAME people will come out flaming over the SAME information which once helped them.

There has got to be a reason, and a verrrrrry influential one... The SAME people KNEW about what was bad, and WHY! That's what gets me.    Now they are all defensive at the mere mention of Dr. Lisa Pierson and any related information. 

People "go with the flow', so I can't count on the people.

(DeeDee said it best, about today's society in general.) 

Thing is, the people aren't the ones in pain...   

Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 26, 2014, 05:35:30 PM
Oh he believes what he says, no question.  He's been brainwashed, bought and packaged.

It's still malpractice -- and fraud, IMO.   Even if somebody held a gun to his head to say those things, it is what it is. 

The problem  is, he's not just somebody professing to be an expert and giving his opinions. He is Licensed. 

(As an aside to that; Who will the majority believe? Someone without a license?  Without a diploma...)

EDIT:  Didn't mean to type this previously:
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People "go with the flow', so I can't count on the people.


meant to type:
WE can't count on the people, and I 'won't' count on the people. 
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Pookie on June 27, 2014, 09:10:24 AM
Hi CC,

My head’s a bit foggy today, so if I totally missed your point(s), I apologize.

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How much is the inevitable PU surgery, which seem to average $3,000 and over for the surgery alone.
How much $$  is a bag of corn, glutens & sawdust running for frenzied pet owners because they are led to believe their pet will deteriorate (even more) & die if they don't feed it?     That stuff, alone, cost some major bucks! 

Neither the owners nor the vets are connecting it to diet, or if they are, they’re not connecting the issues (and the costs involved) with the type of diet.  For urinary crystals, it’s “let’s focus on the calcium or magnesium in the food,” and for diabetes/overweight, “feed less.”  They’re not looking at what is being fed, and until someone does a bunch of clinical trials PROVING to vets (who will then hopefully educate their patients) how inappropriate dry food is, or how much better wet/raw is, it’s not going to change.  The PFI certainly isn’t going to do those trials.  It would have to be people like those who are doing the Rabies Challenge, and that’s not easy to do.

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There has got to be a reason, and a verrrrrry influential one... The SAME people KNEW about what was bad, and WHY! That's what gets me.    Now they are all defensive at the mere mention of Dr. Lisa Pierson and any related information.

There is:  people do not want to believe that their vets (or the FDA/government) are wrong, and that they were that naive.  I was the same way for a long time.  And my cats paid the price, and still do.   :(

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WE can't count on the people, and I 'won't' count on the people.

I understand your frustration.  There will always be people out there who don’t “get it” for whatever reason (some of them are those who say it’s “just a cat/dog” and don’t take their pet care responsibilities as seriously as we do).  BUT, there are also people out there that are willing to learn.  You were one of them.  So was I.  So are probably most if not all of us here.  Those are the people we can educate, because they are willing and open-minded, or just plain desperate to help a sick pet.

We can’t give up just because there are people out there who choose to remain clueless or be sheep.  Not when there are people out there who, like us, want to do better, if someone would just point them in the right direction.  Those pets have a chance, and I’m not giving up if there’s a way to reach their pawrents.  There is no one else but people like us, because we can’t count on the majority of vets, the FDA or the PFI.

It’s kind of like what we tell ourselves when we want to do better for our furkids and aren’t able to, for some reason:  we do the best we can.

grouphug
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 27, 2014, 10:28:04 AM
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We can’t give up just because there are people out there who choose to remain clueless or be sheep.  Not when there are people out there who, like us, want to do better, if someone would just point them in the right direction.  Those pets have a chance, and I’m not giving up if there’s a way to reach their pawrents.  There is no one else but people like us, because we can’t count on the majority of vets, the FDA or the PFI.

 thumbsup1

I was thinking along the lines of, what really happens with the majority of people, such as in MC's OP.


Will skip the "Pediatricians prescribing coen chips" analogy right now, as pets are considered just "property":


Houses are property and the National Association of Home Builders, backed by the Board of Realtors, wouldn't be allowed to **Convince** every home-buyer/owner to install Chinese Drywall and asbestos in their homes because these things are "Best" for houses  (due to the Asbestos makers and Chinese Dry Wall Makers funding them, which also wouldn't be allowed).

They could share their personal opinions that it is best and it is what they prefer, but would they be able to state it as *Fact* EVERYWHERE without some big-time stink from ANYBODY?   I don't people would excuse them.


And what would happen to them if they tried stating it as "Fact"?   Would people give them a pass because of ignorance? Or just stick to our secret Internet pages, while it would be impossible to find homes anywhere in our areas without Asbestos & Chinese Dry Wall?

Since most  houses would already have the CDW & Asbestos intact  throughout, how many people could afford to import the proper supplies from say Switzerland, and have their homes custon-built with that?  And then who could they FIND to build it correctly?  The bulk of US builders won't BUILD  -- or diagnose structural issues -- without the CDW & Asbestos!!

All the Mediots would also be in an uproar (for ratings) -- and that would be only IF the asbestos & Chinese Dry Wall COs advertising revenue weren't so crucial.
Where is the accountability?

This part of the analogy --
 while it would be impossible to find homes anywhere in our areas without Asbestos & Chinese Dry Wall
 
is  reality where I am, and something, ANYTHING should have improved since the mass recalls...yet it's gone backwards.

(Back then, could run out and buy foods like Wellness, Innova ... Natural Balance, which USED to be safe. And the PETCO had never even HEARD of Soulistic when I asked why I couldn't find it in the store recently :o )

 I wish we all could physically live with our pets Online in one of the safe online communities, but we still need physical supplies, and care, for our pets....  so right back to the bolded analogy above.   :(

We are STILL not backed up as even "Consumers" in ANY way. Still.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Pookie on June 27, 2014, 12:31:13 PM
CC, remember . . . “brain fog.”  I’m having trouble following, but I think you’re referring to the corruption/”follow the money” that’s involved in feeding our pets.  That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to be able to have a major impact on it.  It’s how organizations/entities/groups survive.  It doesn’t make it right, it just is.

All we can do is share what we know and learn with others who are willing to listen.  It’s a pebble in a pond.  The waves may start small, but eventually get wider.  Eventually, in time, perhaps the wave people like us have created will help bring down the ignorance perpetrated by the PFI/FDA/vet industry.  Even Rome fell (bad analogy, but go with it).  But it takes time, and patience, and perseverance.

We do the best we can.

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Lord, help me to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”  --Serenity Prayer
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 27, 2014, 12:53:37 PM
 :-[    All that rambling I did boiled down to this   :)

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We are STILL not backed up as even "Consumers" in ANY way. Still.


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Lord, help me to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”  --Serenity Prayer

Can't argue with that!!!  To things regarding jobs & work as well!!   thumbsup1

Another silver lining I should be looking at:  I don't think I miss having dogs as much as I thought I would, so why AM I still ranting about ancient history?   Doh1  Doh1      I guess things have worked out for the best. 
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 01:58:48 PM
sarcasmalert

But Dee!  Our housepets have adapted to these diets!  They're different from their wild ancestors!

[alert off]


I have heard that several times.  I find that theory VERY odd. 

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It's called "ignorance."  I think these vets, for the most part, truly believe what they're saying.  This is what they were taught, and they never clued in to the conflict of interest that should have been obvious when the PFI was providing them "educational" materials, along with free pet food.  And sadly, our society stopped teaching people to question authority a very long time ago.  The general public, myself included until I learned better, believes that the vets know what they're talking about, and the vets believe that the folks teaching them in school knew what they were talking about, so who are we/they to question anything? 

I don't speak as well as you, but I will give it my best shot.  :)

It isn't uncommon for ANY company to offer "incentives," for various reasons.  Hills and Purina just take it to the extreme. They KNOW what they are doing.  They are businesses.  Businesses wanting to make money... at all costs. IMHO

Using my vet as an example, and putting aside the vets that absolutely can NOT recommend a non RX wet food...  He recommends (at least to me) wet food, AFTER there is an obvious problem.  So, he IS aware that kibble causes many diseases.  On the other hand, he recommended a kibble "snack" product (for a different cat) that "has been tested and is known for helping to keep teeth clean."  I believe every ounce of his being, believes what he said. 
Just to throw more info out there... he has been a vet for 30-ish years.  He didn't just stop learning, after vet school either... going by conversations he and I have had about different subjects. 
My point is... the man is not a dummy.  He owns his business, but ...I would bet my last nickel, he isn't in business to suck money out of his clients.  I know this from personal experience, and can give several examples.
To give two other examples, of known vets... how long were doctors Pierson and Hodgkins practicing vets, before they made the connection of kibble causing diseases? 
Whatever goes on in vet school... is POWERFUL for a looooong time.

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I already know what you're going to say:  did they not pay attention when learning the anatomy/physiology of these animals?  And my answer is:  I'm sure they did.  They just never made the connection between anatomy/physiology and diet.  FWIW, I didn't, either, for a long time.   :-[

Vets in particular are very focused on "evidence-based medicine" and "clinical trials." 
Who's conducting those trials?  The PFI.  And if the clinical trials show X, then that's what we'll go with.  After all, sarcasmalert the PFI would never do anything to hurt their customers.  And besides, the FDA will protect the pets, right?  [alert off] 

I think you hit the nail on the head, with that one.  Covered In Cat Hair pretty much proved that, in her "review" of the Hills plant tour.  http://coveredincathair.com/content/hill’s-pet-nutrition-center-tour-part-three (http://coveredincathair.com/content/hill’s-pet-nutrition-center-tour-part-three)

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It's been said on PFK before:  the only way things will improve is at the bottom, with pet parents putting this information out there the best way we can.  It will take a long time, but we will get there.  The Truth always comes out, eventually.

Agree.  I don't see the vet school teachings changing anytime soon.  And there is that pesky little problem of certain vets not being allowed to speak against certain brands.  Throw in having to upsell, or join the unemployment line.  The "easiest" solution is to reach furkid parents.  Money talks.  When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes. 
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Pookie on June 27, 2014, 03:11:22 PM
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I don't speak as well as you
   :-* :-* :-*  Thanks!

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Businesses wanting to make money... at all costs.

Absolutely.  And I'm sure they truly believe their food is safe and good for pets.

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To give two other examples, of known vets... how long were doctors Pierson and Hodgkins practicing vets, before they made the connection of kibble causing diseases? 
Whatever goes on in vet school... is POWERFUL for a looooong time.

It's not just what goes on in vet school.  People in general tend to be reactive.  They keep doing the same thing until there's a problem, then look for a quick fix like prescription drugs.  This is true in human nutrition as well as animal nutrition.  Very few people have considered what the impact of diet is on health, and they don't until they have a health problem, e.g. diabetes.  Then it becomes about treating the symptom(s), because "science" really hasn't considered just how large an impact nutrition has on human health.  When I feel better, I'd like to do a blog here on this topic.

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The "easiest" solution is to reach furkid parents.  Money talks.  When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes. 

EXACTLY!   Thanks, Lola!  DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 27, 2014, 06:14:07 PM
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My point is... the man is not a dummy.  He owns his business, but ...I would bet my last nickel, he isn't in business to suck money out of his clients.  I know this from personal experience, and can give several examples.

You are very fortunate to have such an option anywhere near your home.   I (understatement) envy you.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 06:34:07 PM
I said...
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Businesses wanting to make money... at all costs.

You said..
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And I'm sure they truly believe their food is safe and good for pets.

I politely disagree.   :D  I think Hills and Purina know... and know they can get away with EVERYTHING that they do... because they can.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: DeeDee on June 27, 2014, 06:42:05 PM

I politely disagree.   :D  I think Hills and Purina know... and know they can get away with EVERYTHING that they do... because they can.


And let's not forget the commercials that Purina has that tug at our hearts--Like "I Could Be Great," and "If your dog can dream it . . ." Those commercials make me SO wish that the food wasn't trash, because I'd feed it if I didn't know better.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 07:01:18 PM
You are very fortunate to have such an option anywhere near your home.   I (understatement) envy you.
CC,
I agree and I AM very thankful.  He isn't always available, and he is the only vet at that location.  With so many animals, we often end up at a "back-up" vet... mannnny different back-up vets, over the years.  I haven't found another vet yet, that I am willing to keep just as a back-up. 

He isn't Dr. Pierson, but...  if I have an opinion for or against something...  he JOYFULLY gives me the final decision.  Today, for example, he mentioned Arrows "being behind on his vaccinations."  I'm not sure when, or why, he changed his stance on over-vaccinating, but...  he was PERFECTLY okay that it isn't going to happen. 

He believes canned is best (we haven't discussed commercial or homemade raw), but he also believes there is "good" kibble.  I did mention that all daily barfing stopped, once everyone was transitioned to an all wet diet.  My comment definitely caught his attention.... but not as much as when I said that pet food manufactures can legally lie about their food, except for the ingredients label.  And we know there is a lot of room to "play" there as well.  Anyway, I mentioned that I found it very interesting, when doing research into pet foods and pet food companies.  I would bet, if we had more time to chat (and I could speak in complete sentences), I could have peeked his interest enough...
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
And let's not forget the commercials that Purina has that tug at our hearts--Like "I Could Be Great," and "If your dog can dream it . . ." Those commercials make me SO wish that the food wasn't trash, because I'd feed it if I didn't know better.


We had a short pet food discussion, at our last family gathering.  Those discussions NEVER go well.  However I was VERY pleasantly surprised, when one said (and the others agreed)... "Purina sure has stepped the BS up a notch, due to the lawsuit." 

Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 27, 2014, 08:47:59 PM
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CC, remember . . . “brain fog.”  I’m having trouble following, but I think you’re referring to the corruption/”follow the money” that’s involved in feeding our pets.  That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to be able to have a major impact on it.  It’s how organizations/entities/groups survive.  It doesn’t make it right, it just is.

I hear you.  Kinda like those warnings required on cigarette packs now...no smoking on TV shows,  and no beer commercials during prime time ANY time, unless a sporting event....

Just to clarify, this was the basis of my ramblings, from the Vet in MC's OP. Remember him?  >:D

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Think about it, if kibble were so horrible the millions of cats eating only kibble would have very high incidence of the diseases attributed by some to kibble. And they don't. Most do just fine.

Call me weird, but that really irks me.  JMHO. Please excuse the long, senseless previous rants.  :-[   :)
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 28, 2014, 10:51:46 AM
Just a P.S. as to why I must very much respectfully disagree with your comment here, no matter the ethical issue involved:

 
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but I think you’re referring to the corruption/”follow the money” that’s involved in feeding our pets. That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to be able to have a major impact on it.  It’s how organizations/entities/groups survive.  It doesn’t make it right, it just is.


What if these people in these cities had just accepted their status-quos, as you point out above? 

http://www.care2.com/causes/la-to-become-largest-city-to-ban-pet-shop-puppy-mill-sales.html


http://www.chicagonow.com/raining-cats-dogs/2014/02/chicago-pet-store-ban-city-moves-to-ban-sale-of-pets-in-pet-stores/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/05/chicago-bans-puppy-mill-sales_n_4904970.html

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Judge-allows-California-cities-to-ban-cat-2497840.php

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The state Supreme Court allowed cities in California to ban cat declawing Wednesday, rejecting veterinarians' challenge to a West Hollywood ordinance that could lead to copycat measures elsewhere.


Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Pookie on June 28, 2014, 08:47:30 PM
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What if these people in these cities had just accepted their status-quos, as you point out above? 

Well, I never said we should accept it.  I'm not able to focus on reading the links you posted, so I'm going off of the quote you provided.  It's wonderful those folks were able to make a difference.  IMO, you're probably not going to get that kind of grass-roots effort regarding pet food.  I'm not saying it's not possible, and I'm not trying to rain on your parade.  This is why I would love a celebrity to get involved and draw attention to this issue.  They would have better luck than "ordinary" folks like us.

Issues like declawing and puppy mills are, for lack of a better word, easier to prove in terms of the inhumanity, so it's a little easier to get people (press, lawyers/courts) to make changes.  Diet issues aren't as "easy" to prove, because the connection to illness isn't obvious except to folks like us who have learned it the hard way, or the rare vets like Drs. Pierson or Hodgkins.  This goes back to the "show me the clinical study" attitude that pervades human and veterinary medicine.

I really don't know what else to say.  For me, personally, I think the best way to change things when it comes to what people are feeding their pets is to keep spreading the word.  As Lola brilliantly stated, "When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes."  That's just my  2cents.
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on June 29, 2014, 01:40:21 PM
The pet food/vet industry is in a world all its own!  There isn't just ONE thing that needs changing.  Not having to answer to a higher authority, that they don't own... or have their hands involved in some way... makes it almost impossible to bring change. 

Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on July 08, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
Sorry for not getting back to this thread    :-[


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Issues like declawing and puppy mills are, for lack of a better word, easier to prove in terms of the inhumanity, so it's a little easier to get people (press, lawyers/courts) to make changes. Diet issues aren't as "easy" to prove, because the connection to illness isn't obvious except to folks like us who have learned it the hard way, or the rare vets like Drs. Pierson or Hodgkins.  This goes back to the "show me the clinical study" attitude that pervades human and veterinary medicine.

Guess I was just overly naivé as it would have taken the same amount of time to shoot off a letter of concern to somebody who might be unbiased, as it would to vent on a message forum or post a "share" on FB, IMO.
 Back when I was writing letters, was providing proof (the Diabetic cats; Papers from both Harvard & U of Chicago Law Schools; PU Surgery threads from another huge forum; the teeth and jaws…)  and somebody responded wondering why, if the foods were so bad, why was I the only person he'd ever heard of finding an issue with it?   That was the ONLY reason I tried to encourage others to help in contacting people who might have some unbiased influence,  to try to at least warn people…

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I really don't know what else to say.  For me, personally, I think the best way to change things when it comes to what people are feeding their pets is to keep spreading the word.  As Lola brilliantly stated, "When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes."  That's just my  .

With all due respect to Lola, the only thing "brilliant" in most regions of this country is what marketers & vets in the PFI pockets continue to succeed doing -- getting MORE people loyal to Purina, Hill's and Royal C.  There are LESS half-way decent choices at the over-abundance of pet stores now than there were during & just after the recalls. 

Even once-decent brands like Innova, Wellness, Natural  Balance, EVO,  right on down the line, have gotten worse -- NOT better since the recall fiasco.  Look at all the recalls & issues since they had been bought out.

And just try to get an *unbiased*  objective, straight diagnosis on a pet ailment unless somebody lives West-enough for better odds.  Just where are people supposed to take their pets when they can't diagnose everything online  -- and that's when they notice enough red flags and get desperate enough to even GO online!

Again, I was naivé. 
 Popular demand will ALWAYS dictate what is available, and in this region, Purina and whatever else the vets are endorsing and "prescribing" are KING.  No exaggeration.  People here believe that corn & fillers are just fine, and so is kibble.   That is why there were NO local options when I helped people try to convert a kibble-fish addict, despite the abundance of both huge and small pet supply stores in this area.

Throughout the recalls,  at least there were safe options.   Something, anything, should have improved, but it has only regressed.   

It all depends on location.  So I will (finally) conclude all ranting pertaining to this subject with this: 
 I wouldn't wish pet-ownership on my worst enemy in this region.  They are in for a load of heartache, confusion, and financial dire-straits because there is NObody unbiased to diagnose ailments objectively , as our family vet had done for so many years with unbiased thorough physicals & examinations.

Even among those who do know, who rotate foods/brands (mostly out of fear),  just how many options -- in total-- are available to us, including online?  Unless we go all raw/home-made, how many of us in-the-know can actually feel at ease with ANY commercial foods?   

Comes right back to consumer demand.

That's why I brought Lawyers into the mix.  Where is the consumer protection in ANY/all of this?   It's in the dictionary that these species are carnivores; can't process carbs; no teeth & jaws to grind or chew; low thirst drives.... The dictionary!   :o
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on July 08, 2014, 10:20:50 PM
Rambling thoughts...

I think if it was easy to contact someone and get the ball rolling... legally... Dr. Hodgkins would have already done it.   

Getting a celebrity involved could bring about a lot of change.  At the very least, change the minds of consumers.  People listen to celebrities.  Oprah just about took down the entire beef industry single handed. 

Like Facebook or not, a story going "viral" is often VERY helpful.

Email, snail mail, chat forums, Facebook, blogs, etc... all play a part, and often make a difference. 

Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on July 08, 2014, 10:58:14 PM
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I think if it was easy to contact someone and get the ball rolling... legally... Dr. Hodgkins would have already done it.   

She testified before the Senate. But she's not Miley Cyrus so people couldn't care less. 

Just one example:  I had brought her background and testimony up repeatedly in that infinite PU Surgery thread on another forum and anybody can go look at it and see allll the people still aiding by their vets' "prescriptions" and feeding the "c/d" kibble, and freaking out because the surgery costs $3,000.00 and upwards.

Consumer demand is the name of the game and people need to be told either by their own Vet and/or in 12-letter sentences, preferably by a "celebrity", how and what to think. 

Don't dispute any of what you said, however I will reiterate that I woudn't wish pet ownership on my worst enemy because the situations posted in previous post aren't going away. It's getting worse.

For people in other areas/regions, who DO have options beit food choices or care -- God bless you.

 I will concede that contacting unbiased people, who don't have to respect and abide by advertisers who pay their employers' revenues, was a very dumb idea. 

Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on July 08, 2014, 11:14:33 PM
Speaking of advertisers and revenue, have to go OT because it's downright hysterical --

Major League Baseball had to crack down on Steroids in Baseball because of Baseball fan Senators like Jim Bunning taking the issue to the highest court because of juiced-up ballplayers breaking Babe & Hank's records; fans nationwide hating and booing Barry Bonds for blemishing "The Integrity of The Game of Baseball"  funny2

AROD of the Yankees was banned for this entire season over using Steroids -- in a sport which can afford to pay his astronomical salary due to the above measures taken because of all the fan-hate generated towards Barry Bonds  cryingfunny

The Washington Redskins have to change their offensive name, via Court Order, and all those diehard 'Skins fans have to go buy the new merchandise & garb to wear to the games  cryingfunny cryingfunny

Hey, give The People what they demand!!   thumbsup1 Only in America...
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Lola on July 12, 2014, 12:55:47 PM
Thread is about wet vs dry and the lies vets tell. 
I think I'm confused.  What is it that you (CC) feel we (pet parents) should be doing?
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: Catgirl64 on December 26, 2017, 02:18:43 AM
When I start hearing about vegan and vegetarian-fed carnivore pets, PETA is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Here's their list with both vegetarian AND vegan options:

http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/companion-animal-food-guide/

Seriously? Those are diets for Carnivores?

Lots of those links are outdated at this point, but I'm familiar with some of the foods, and the really annoying thing is the way PETA tries to promote them as truly vegetarian or vegan options, when that is clearly not what the manufacturers intended.  I am not familiar with all those brands, but the ones I do know state quite plainly that these are not complete diets, and that you must add MEAT before serving.  People who take the trouble to read the instructions will discover this, but there will always be those who do not, because they see only what they want to see.  They will see the list and think they have defeated nature by finding a true "vegan" food for carnivores.   >:(

I have never been able to figure out what PETA is trying to accomplish, but it sure as heck doesn't have anything to do with healthier pets. 
Title: Re: It makes me want to cry
Post by: DeeDee on December 26, 2017, 08:39:06 AM


I have never been able to figure out what PETA is trying to accomplish, but it sure as heck doesn't have anything to do with healthier pets. 

They're trying to make sure that no animal is ever eaten, worn, or bred. They're essentially trying to make sure that no animals other than humans inhabit the earth.