Are we not getting the word out?

[Middle Child]

Yes, the ingredients are horrible, but the fact remains that the food is working for her, when a high quality commercial canned diet does not.

yes I know (and my vet knows) that it isn't unusual to find a few crystals in a cat's urine when it has been sent to the lab. But my girl forms them in bulk <ggg>

the c/d is "multicare", designed to prevent the formation of either struvite or oxalate by keeping the pH at the desired 6.4. I am not a chemist so do not know why the food works.  It does, however, work.

[Pookie]

Wow, I missed a lot of activity in this thread.

Just to get back to the "getting the word out," I think maybe people in the best position to get the pet food companies and pet parents to listen are the veterinarians.  They'd be a tough nut to crack, but if some of them are open to the information, they could make a HUGE difference.  It's my (naive) hope that if they see the "evidence" they'll eventually get a clue.  For example, after I put Pookie and his sister on grain-free wet, my vet hardly heard from me (until Pookie's sister developed other issues) and thought they looked great when they went in for a check-up (of course I bragged about how changing the diet made a big difference).  A friend of mine goes to the same vet and vicariously lived my cat issues.  Well, her dachsund was having issues so she researched, changed his diet and gee, his issues cleared up!  The next time she took him in for a check-up, the vet could not get over the incredible condition the dog was in.  I had tried giving him information (shoot, I think I printed catinfo and handed it to him)  but don't know if he read it, but at Pookie's last check-up, I did see that he was selling better quality food.  Still had the prescription stuff, but also had Merrick's available.   

(Side note:  what boggled my mind was he knew diabetic cats shouldn't get dry food, and even recommended only wet for obese cats so they wouldn't develop diabetes, but it never occurred to him that gee, if it can cause diabetes, maybe it contributes to other problems, too.)  bangsheadgif

Okay, I think I'm rambling, but that's just my take.

[Middle Child]

My vet is always interested in the foods I feed too. She marvels over their coats and asks what I am feeding "these days" She doesn't take notes with a pen, but I can see her taking mental notes. She was actually the one who recommended I feed Wellness canned quite a few years ago.

I know she passes things she hears from me along to other clients.

[Lola]

Just to get back to the "getting the word out," I think maybe people in the best position to get the pet food companies and pet parents to listen are the veterinarians.  They'd be a tough nut to crack, but if some of them are open to the information, they could make a HUGE difference.  It's my (naive) hope that if they see the "evidence" they'll eventually get a clue.  

When I first started going to Dr. P, he wasn't informed about food caused illnesses.  (Neither was I.) He didn't suggest a brand, dry, wet, etc.  (From what I understand, nutrition is a short course AND the info provided, is from the very companies making the carpy food.)  For whatever reason, (I've been dying to ask him, but hate to take up his time with my rambling.) he chose to further his education concerning nutrition, vaccinations, etc.  
He does recommend wet food (NOT Hills, Royal Canin, etc. either) to his feline pet parents now.  He also explains to his clients the reason their pet is having such and such issue is probably (he is very careful to not make a person feel badly for what they are feeding their pets) because of X ingredients.  He words his explanations VERY well.  

My point is...Vets ARE the "key" to us having pets that THRIVE, and not just survive.  People listen to their vets.  

[CarnivorousCritter]

 He also explains to his clients the reason their pet is having such and such issue is probably (he is very careful to not make a person feel badly for what they are feeding their pets) because of X ingredients.  He words his explanations VERY well.  

My point is...Vets ARE the "key" to us having pets that THRIVE, and not just survive.  People listen to their vets.  

This is the reason I mention bad vet influence in so many (if not all) of these topics. The pet owner with their stomach in knots is always stuck between the rock & the hard place. For over a year my stomach was in a knot like I'd never known before.  And forget trying to sleep.
And it's not right. People are more vulnerable and need to trust more when something in their care can't speak for itself. That's why I killed my dogs, I didn't know how to second-guess, how not to trust and neither did my family.

Lola, was it your vet that said he'd gone to a seminar and heard a feline specialist speak (describing Dr. H but he couldn't recall the name?)  Somewhere a while back,  I'd read a post where someone's vet did so and changed his whole approach.   

[CarnivorousCritter]

Lola I know what you're gonna say   , but I'm not being hard on myself. ALL the info was RIGHT at the fingertips and I didn't get on here. Symptoms CLEARLY explained in layman's terms, everything was right here.

BUT who kept trusting the salespeople anyway? They sold us THREE surgical procedures before the ORIGINAL ailments were even diagnosed/cleared up!!  If it was an MD, funny how different we feel, isn't it?  

[CarnivorousCritter]

The thing is,  the original ailments couldn't go away anyway because we didn't know we were feeding them POISON!!!  Nobody on the INTERNET had clued us in yet.

[Pookie]

CC, I’m almost in tears reading your last posts because I can relate so well.  I'm copying this from my post on Catster because I think some of it might help:

“To try to answer your question, I think what it comes down to is that we live in a society that doesn't like to question certain things. In my opinion, we have made science a god, never to be questioned or doubted. If 9 out of 10 dentists recommend X brand toothpaste, or something is doctor or veterinarian recommended, it must be good. After all, these folks conduct the studies and go to school for years. They know more than we do, so who are we to question them? And the thing is, even if you want to question them, how are you supposed to know what questions to ask? You don't know what you don't know, and I think our society has an inherent trust in people in authority, esp. science-related professions. If we see a label that says AAFCO-approved, well, the government must be making sure the ingredients in this food are safe, right? It's really scary to think that those we believe are in charge of our health and that of our pets could be mis-informed or, dare I say it, even wrong. It's not a comfortable thing to question authority, and people don't like to be uncomfortable. It's human nature.

I admit, I was one of those people. Even when my gut was telling me something wasn't right, and I questioned my vets (I went to 3), when I look back I don't think I asked the right questions, and I didn't know what to ask, or what information to look for. I can't tell you how many internet searches I did, and it STILL took me 5 years to find the information I needed. It took a search for home-cooked food for cats (suggested by a co-worker who saw the toll my situation was taking on me) to find catinfo.org. It never occurred to me to try to find a cat forum until after I'd already found some answers. But if my cats had been fine all those years, I probably wouldn't have questioned anything. Heck, even after reading Dr. Pierson's site AND catnutrition.org, I hesitated to remove the dry food. It wasn't until I read Dr. Hodgkins' book that I finally did it.

So that's my take, for what it's worth. I hope I didn't offend anyone.”

What I didn’t include in that post was that I went to at least 3 different vets and NOT ONE of them every said to me not to feed dry.  In fact, there was a time when Pookie couldn’t keep down any dry at all, and when I called my vet to ask how I could get him back on his dry food, the reply I got was “I don’t have a clue.”  I took him to a different vet (that was the last time I dealt with “clueless”) and again, was not told anything like, “if they keep throwing up the dry food, then don’t feed it.  Cats don’t HAVE to eat dry food . . . they can live on wet only.”  It wasn’t until AFTER I had removed the dry and I called a holistic vet (#4 or 5, I’ve lost count) about Pookie’s sister that the vet said “It would help if you don’t feed dry food.”  So I would have needed to drive an hour away to find a vet who knew this?

For what it’s worth, CC, I can relate to you.  I blame myself for everything my babies went through, and I tried to ask questions but never got real answers.  All we can do is try to learn from those experiences and try to have something positive come out of them by sharing them with those willing to listen.  It won’t change the past (though God knows I wish it could), but maybe it’ll make a difference for others.  Sorry this is so long and a bit OT.  

[Lola]

This is the reason I mention bad vet influence in so many (if not all) of these topics. The pet owner with their stomach in knots is always stuck between the rock & the hard place. For over a year my stomach was in a knot like I'd never known before.  And forget trying to sleep.
And it's not right. People are more vulnerable and need to trust more when something in their care can't speak for itself. That's why I killed my dogs, I didn't know how to second-guess, how not to trust and neither did my family.

Lola, was it your vet that said he'd gone to a seminar and heard a feline specialist speak (describing Dr. H but he couldn't recall the name?)  Somewhere a while back,  I'd read a post where someone's vet did so and changed his whole approach.   

I think it is NORMAL, for the average Joe, to not second guess a person that has a degree in the area that person is seeking help.  It isn't like you were at the neighborhood PetCo asking the cashier to help you.  Also, the Average Joe, is usually sooooooo stressed out and emotionally involved...thinking clearly is rarely an option!  AND...the Internet has a LOT of useful info, but there is also a lot of misinformation...how does one decide who or what to believe?  Time and circumstances were not on your side. 
Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.  The BEST we can do is forgive ourselves, learn, remember the times with our furkids that were good... and move forward. 
This isn't going to sound very nice...but your dogs didn't die in vain.  YOU learned a lot.  YOU share a lot of what you have learned.  I'm pretttttttty sure YOUR posts were the first ones that I "ran" into on the Internet, when searching for info on feline blockages.  (I didn't know that was the problem, at the time.) If I had NOT read your words, the links that you provided, etc., I could have EASILY not reacted in time.

I also have shared a story (elsewhere) where I felt I BRUTALLY killed a dog, at the hands of a vet.  Not "my" Dr. P, but another vet in his office.  It ATE me up for years.  I was in the same situation with another dog, years later.  I made sure the same "mistakes" weren't repeated.  We learn vets aren't God.  We learn from our own mistakes.  We learn from others.  We share our stories.  That is the best we can do. 

To answer your question...no, it wasn't my vet that went to the seminar. 

[Lola]

Pookie...great post!!   

Ask 10 people, and 9 will tell you it is "normal" for cats to barf their brains out every day.  How did we get lead to believe that???  I don't want to barf every day...why did I accept it as normal behavior with my felines? 

[CarnivorousCritter]

I Love, love LOVE you Kitties.  Thank you.

We were blessed with such a wonderful VeteriAngel for so many years, he never pretended to know about nutrition.
 We asked him in the '80s which food he thought was best (we fed Might Dog back in the day before all the China stuff and before Colgate palmolive had the genius idea because of the success with dentist endorsements.)  He said "I don't know, I'd have to look it up, we're just Doctors"

Yup, Lola and what's the first thing we blame/think of when we or any living thing vomits?  

Today if a dog was to get sick off of foods where these companies are funding the vet associations, that dog and cat is SCREWED and the owner goes broke with tests & treating symptoms until the organs fail from all the steroids, or seizures because of a pain killer.  

I was reading Consumer Affairs and About.com all through the recalls even, and you should have seen all the people with pets in sudden renal failure ... rushing them back to the same vets who "prescribed" or recommended the food all these animals were 'coincidentally" eating.
And WHO did all these people want to "pay" for all this?

The pet FOODS -- NOT the vets who "prescribed" it.

Know what the kicker is, Pookie?


<<<<What I didn’t include in that post was that I went to at least 3 different vets and NOT ONE of them every said to me not to feed dry.  In fact, there was a time when Pookie couldn’t keep down any dry at all, and when I called my vet to ask how I could get him back on his dry food, the reply I got was “I don’t have a clue.”  I took him to a different vet (that was the last time I dealt with “clueless”) and again, was not told anything like, “if they keep throwing up the dry food, then don’t feed it.  Cats don’t HAVE to eat dry food >>>

ALL that education, ALL the studying of these species. They MUST have had anatomy 101 at some point in all those years.
How can they at least NOT be aware of the shapes of these animal's teeth? That they can't even chew it? How is this even possible?

Between that and the glaring conflict of interest, it's just beyond comprehension.

<<<<But if my cats had been fine all those years, I probably wouldn't have questioned anything.>>>

Touche' my friend.  

I was telling someone, it's like a relative's MD selling him a food loaded with anchovies, scallops and red meat extract when the patient suffers from Gout.  Would there be a difference, honestly?  (besides the MD getting promptly sued and license pulled...)

[Pookie]

Great post, Lola!

"ALL that education, ALL the studying of these species. They MUST have had anatomy 101 at some point in all those years.
How can they at least NOT be aware of the shapes of these animal's teeth? That they can't even chew it? How is this even possible?"

Oh, believe me, CC, whenever I think about this stuff, I get REALLY angry that apparently NOT ONE of these students ever said, gee, these are the teeth of a carnivore, why are we feeding them so many grains . . .  (I would look at the ingredients and justify it to myself by thinking, they'd eat the grain in a mouse's stomach, never realizing that 1.  there were WAY too many grains in the food compared to a mouse's stomach and 2.  the mouse would be digesting it for them).  But think 1 reason they don't question it is because of the so-called science behind it -- the pet food companies conducted the "clinical trials" and that's what they're focusing on.  (I work with doctors and pharmacists, and it's maddening to me sometimes just how focused they are on data, when anecdotal (sp?) information can also be relevant).  Clearly it never occurs to these students that there's a built-in conflict of interest in a pet food company conducting a study and teaching about nutrition.

But the bigger issue is that I think, over time, we are being taught less and less to think for ourselves, and since we're so busy we just trust because we don't have the time to research.  But that's a whooooole other discussion.   

And I know this is really OT, but I've considered suing Dr. Clueless (in my case, it would mainly be for over-vaccinating Pookie’s sister, because I think that led to most of her problems) except for 2 things:  1.  pets are "property" so it would cost a lot more than I'd win and more importantly 2. I can't "prove" that he knew certain things or that the vaccines were the cause of her problems.  And in the end, it was MY decision to allow him to do it.  I just make sure that anytime someone in my neighborhood asks me about local vets, I tell them to stay away from this place because the guy is clueless.

So to get back to the original topic, maybe if we provide vets with the “clinical data” such as Dr. Hodgkins’ study that she did for her protocol, and then give them the facts about cats (obligate carnivores, look at the teeth, etc.) and the inappropriateness of feeding dry food and grains, they’d be more open to the information?

[Shadow]

The so called Scientists of the pet food companys that test these foods, are "in bed" so to speak with the PFC. Real Science does not claim to know all, it changes everyday, they are theories, ever learning, and if they are wrong about something they admit it, and go back to the table about it.
To know what a domestic cat eats all you have to do is look at the real Science and that is the digestive systems of the wild cats.  Hope you guys have checked out the video here I posted about the history of felines.  Our domestic cats digestive systems have not changed as of yet, it takes millions of years for this to happen.
These pet foods were made for convenience plain and simple.

[Lola]

The so called Scientists of the pet food companys that test these foods, are "in bed" so to speak with the PFC. Real Science does not claim to know all, it changes everyday, they are theories, ever learning, and if they are wrong about something they admit it, and go back to the table about it.
To know what a domestic cat eats all you have to do is look at the real Science and that is the digestive systems of the wild cats.  Hope you guys have checked out the video here I posted about the history of felines.  Our domestic cats digestive systems have not changed as of yet, it takes millions of years for this to happen.
These pet foods were made for convenience plain and simple.

 

[CarnivorousCritter]

But the bigger issue is that I think, over time, we are being taught less and less to think for ourselves...

So to get back to the original topic, maybe if we provide vets with the “clinical data” such as Dr. Hodgkins’ study that she did for her protocol, and then give them the facts about cats (obligate carnivores, look at the teeth, etc.) and the inappropriateness of feeding dry food and grains, they’d be more open to the information?

(We should start a thread bout dr Clueless.  They are common near me, too.  They need to stick with what they DO know, or refer to somebody who does. One for instance specialises in other species and shouldn't be anywhere near a dog or cat, and has a big banner outside touting the shots.(

The problem is, it appears they wouldn't be allowed to -- unless they've established their own independent practice or join the Holistic Association.

Sorry for the length here but there are countless examples along with these --

 Hill's employee named NAVTA's Veterinary Technician of the Year
http://www.hillspet.com/hillsvet/articles/articleDetail.hjsp?JSESSIONID=NL8yfEk3h1Mty03NCe96iiW2jS2EOP7Oz0gs9cX1xOYxa0UEM2Dy!-99010741!167846924!7005!8005&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395192518&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=1408474395192518&bmUID=1300987122328
 
 
"...member of a number of associations, including NAVTA, the American Association of Veterinary Nutrition, the American Animal Hospital Association, the American Veterinary Dental Society,... to name a few. She also serves on a number of national committees ...  currently the president of the Kansas Veterinary Technician Association and is a member of the organizing committee for the Academy of Veterinary Nutrition Technicians. She is frequently invited to speak at national and state conferences and has penned a monthly nutrition column...
 
",,, a unique opportunity to help veterinary technicians across North America ... "I work with technicians at the local, state, specialty and national level. I speak and write about nutrition and disease, >>>"
 
d. In 1981, the Partnership morphed into the Delta Society, an organization that continues to thrive and co-sponsors the Bustad Award along with the American Veterinary Medical Association and Hill’s Pet Nutrition. http://speakingforspot.com/blog/?tag=hills-pet-nutrition
 
 
http://www.germinder.com/case_hills.php  Our association with Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc., a leader in pet nutrition in the veterinary profession and to the pet-owning public, is longstanding. The relationship began with our president's creation of the Pets Need Dental Care, Too! campaign in 1995 with Hill's Pet Nutrition, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Veterinary Dental Society and the American Veterinary Dental College...
'
Today, the agency works with Hill's on special projects such as the feline-friendly brochure and the Mark L. Morris, Sr. Lifetime Achievement Award. ... recently produced a feline-friendly brochure, distributed nationwide, which outlines tips and other information to help veterinarians make their practices more feline-friendly. The Mark L. Morris, Sr. Lifetime Achievement Award is given annually ... The venue for this event is North American Veterinary Conference (NAVC), one of the world's largest veterinary conferences. Our job... is to honor the award recipient with a video story ... develop a media relations kit and outreach to veterinary influentials and the veterinary trade and specialty pet media. The results have successfully reinforced Hill's commitment to the profession through the event and post-event media impressions.>>>
 
Nothing like heart-tugging stories of goodwill; even more of these since the recalls:
 
 “There is no better way to promote pet health and wellness and responsible veterinary practices than to support the education of future veterinarians,” said Dr. David Goodnight, President and COO of PurinaCare Insurance Services.  “PurinaCare is proud to aid in Michigan State University’s academic excellence in veterinary medicine.”  http://www.dogtipper.com/blog/2010/03/purinacare-establishes-vet-student-award-thanks-to-miracle-pet.html

Another Law School Paper:   
"... best but even a cursory analysis demonstrates that there exists a longstanding and powerful connection between the pet food industry and the veterinary profession ...”  Not only are some of the major pet food companies shareholders in AVMA itself, but AVMA is well represented on the boards of these same companies, as well as on that at AAFCO and other industry organizations like the Pet Food Institute (PFI) and the American Pet Products Manufacturing Association (APPMA). http://www.law.uchicago.edu/animallaw/studentresearch

... It will demonstrate that just as responsible for the recall are longstanding systemic problems with the manner in which the veterinary profession is organized and operated.  More specifically, it will argue that the commercial pet food industry’s connection to the veterinary profession has resulted in the creation of a system in which veterinarians are not only ill suited to counsel their clients on pet nutrition, but have a financial stake in their clients’ market decisions as well.  One of the key questions to be examined here is the ethical implications of a system in which pet food companies are used to educate veterinarians about pet nutrition while at the same time providing veterinarians with exclusive rights to the sale of their pet food products (which may account for up to 40% of the profit of veterinary clinics). 
An analysis of all twenty-seven US Veterinary Colleges will be undertaken in order to demonstrate not only the prevalence of the practices listed above, but the level of support provided to these schools in the form of grants, scholarships, and food programs....>>>

The so called Scientists of the pet food companys that test these foods, are "in bed" so to speak with the PFC. ...  Hope you guys have checked out the video here I posted about the history of felines.  Our domestic cats digestive systems have not changed as of yet, it takes millions of years for this to happen...
 

   

But I honestly wonder if it ever could? Wouldn't a feline have to be cross-bred with a species with differing physiology-anatomies to achieve some sort of "compromise"?