Author Topic: The Outside Dilemma  (Read 64021 times)

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Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #270 on: September 11, 2015, 10:41:57 PM »
I know there's a separate thread about using chlorophyll to help Mazy's issues, and I'll keep that separate, but it got my OCD going about what else could be done for Mazy.  I'm going to go through the info from the course I took again, the info about digestion and elimination, to see if there's anything in it that could be helpful.  Meanwhile, I went on Wikipedia and looked up "peristalsis" which is basically a fancy word for "motility."  I want to see what actually gets the muscles to move the food along, because, bottom line, IMO Mazy eats the grass to throw up her hairballs, or something else.  So I'm trying to figure out if she needs more ACV, more bone (for the calcium/magnesium), etc.  This is what stood out to me on peristalsis:

Quote
  The migrating motor complex (MMC) helps trigger peristaltic waves. This process works in one direction only and its sole esophageal function is to move food from the mouth into the stomach (the MMC also functions to clear out remaining food in the stomach to the small bowel, and remaining particles in the small bowel into the colon).

So then I clicked on "migrating motor complex" and found this:

Quote
The MMC is thought to be partially regulated by motilin, which is initiated in the stomach as a response to vagal stimulation, and does not directly depend on extrinsic nerves.

I clicked on "motilin" and found this:

Quote
Motilin is a 22-amino acid polypeptide hormone in the motilin family that, in humans, is encoded by the MLN gene.[2]

Motilin is secreted by endocrine M cells (these are not the same M cells that are in Peyer's patches) that are numerous in crypts of the small intestine, especially in the duodenum and jejunum.[3] It is released into the general circulation in humans at about 100-min intervals during the inter-digestive state and is the most important factor in controlling the inter-digestive migrating contractions; and it also stimulates endogenous release of the endocrine pancreas.[4] Based on amino acid sequence, motilin is unrelated to other hormones. Because of its ability to stimulate gastric activity, it was named "motilin". Apart from in humans, the motilin receptor has been identified in the gastrointestinal tracts of pigs, rats, cows, and cats, and in the central nervous system of rabbits.

Interesting that it's found in omnivores, herbivores and obligate carnivores.

That's as far as I've gotten, but I'm wondering if maybe Mazy needs more amino acids?  I want to look into this more, but I also wanted to share what I've found so far.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #271 on: September 12, 2015, 10:27:27 AM »
http://dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/unique_nutritional_needs_of_cats.html


Quote
A cat's diet must provide proteins and amino acids containing a source of essential amino acids for which cats have an absolute requirement. Dietary proteins must also provide a greater source of nitrogen than that needed by most other animals. Cats do not conserve nitrogen as well as other animals. Their enzyme activities for metabolizing amino acids are greater than in other animals and that activity does not decrease when they eat a low protein diet. Excess amino acid destruction continues, leaving insufficient amounts for making protein. Feeding low protein diets is always wrong for cats.

http://www.petenzymes.com/frontproduct/total-zymes.html For enzymes

And if you look at the label, it's full of Amino Acids as the delivery system:  http://www.petenzymes.com/pdf/e228label.pdf

I'm a firm believer in pets needing extra digestive enzymes. A lot of them come from plant sources that we don't feed them.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #272 on: September 14, 2015, 04:29:20 PM »
This gives a nice description of peristalsis (motility), and IMO confirms MC's on the right track with the 10+ hour fasts:

http://www.britannica.com/science/peristalsis#_comments

Quote
  When the stomach is filled, peristaltic waves are diminished. The presence of fat in a meal can completely stop these movements for a short period until it is diluted with gastric juices or removed from the stomach. 

This tells me that all those meals were keeping Mazy's tummy full, and which reduced the peristaltic waves, which meant some things (e.g. fur) weren't really moving along.

I went through my books and class materials and what keeps popping up to help digestion/elimination issues are:  probiotics, fiber (everything I have says fiber helps improve motility), and mucus (e.g. Slippery Elm Bark, Marshmallow). 

I've gone back to the beginning of this thread and determined the following:

- Mazy gets a probiotic twice a day
- She gets (or was getting) Vets-Best (psyllium) for fiber daily
- She gets Slippery Elm Bark (mucous) daily
- She also gets egg yolk lecithin to help break up the fat the holds the hairball together in her system
- Mazy gets raw egg yolk, which contains choline, which aids motility
- Mazy occasionally needs to have her anal glands expressed (IMO, another motility issue)
- When Mazy grooms, she ingests WADS of fur that then sit in her tummy.  I suspect she eats the grass to try to hork the fur, but unfortunately, the fur AND grass then sit there.

So it seems to me that MC is doing everything that my materials recommend, and while these things have been helpful, through no fault of MC's, they haven't completely addressed Mazy's motility issue.

I wondered if she needed more fiber, but if the fur and grass along with the Vet's-Best aren't enough fiber, I'm not sure adding more would help.  There was a point where MC increased the VB, and it didn't seem to make a difference.

Then I wondered if she needed more mucous.  Elsewhere in the thread, though, MC mentioned that she thought the mucous agents in her diet (Slippery Elm) might be causing Mazy's bum to get red and dry.

MC could certainly add more probiotic to Mazy's food.  I doubt it would hurt, but I don't know that it would help.  Maybe giving the raw egg yolk more often would help?

So I'm trying to look at this from a different perspective.  It seems like there are 2 issues (IMO):  1.  Mazy ingests a LOT of fur.  Is there something going on that her fur should pull out that easily?  2.  The ingested fur just sits in her tummy, as does the grass that she eats.  As MC has already determined, there's definitely a motility issue.

I did some searches on amino acids and hair loss, and it sounds like adding those to the diet can improve skin and coat health.  I didn't find any "smoking gun" evidence, but since hair and skin are both made of protein, and amino acids are the building blocks of protein, it makes sense.

I also did more searching on peristalsis and motilin.  Again, no smoking gun that told me what actually causes peristalsis (yeah, the muscles move the food along, but WHAT makes the muscles move?).  I did find something on Wikipedia about motilin receptors:

Quote
  Motilin receptor is a G protein-coupled receptor that binds motilin.[1][2] Motilin in turn is an intestinal peptide that stimulates contraction of gut smooth muscle. 

Then I clicked on "peptide" and found this:

Quote
  Peptides (from Gr. πεπτός, "digested", derived from πέσσειν, "to digest") are biologically occurring short chains of amino acid monomers linked by peptide (amide) bonds.

Personally, I would feel much better if I'd had that "Aha!" moment like I did with the ACV.  I am totally speculating here, but I'm wondering if adding an amino acid supplement, if one exists for pets, would help Mazy's motility issues as well as improve her coat so she doesn't ingest as much fur.  And if anyone can find something that confirms any of this in a major way, I would love it if they would post the link here.  At this point, it seems to me like MC's tried everything else.

I will continue researching, but I wanted to post what I've found so far.  Because I would really hate for MC and her furkids to forgo the outside trips to the backyard.  I know they all really enjoy it.

Edit:  I did also find that Omega 3's like fish oil could help skin and fur health, and maybe that would make things a little more "slippery" on Mazy's insides, but when I re-read this thread, I saw that Mazy had been getting krill oil and it hadn't seem to do anything for her.  So I don't know.   :-\
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:49:35 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #273 on: September 14, 2015, 04:56:53 PM »
Hmmm . . . maybe more "fat" e.g. Omega 3's?  Or egg yolk or liver?   :-\

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/04/causes-and-cures-for-constipation/

Quote
  Insufficient Dietary Fat and/or Bile

Not long ago Jamie Scott (That Paleo Guy), a very smart nutritional advisor, discussed his solution for constipation. There were several gems in there, for instance, that foods that stimulate opioid receptors can cause constipation [5b]:

For example, both gluten grains (and I suspect grains in general) plus dairy contain opiate-like compounds that serve to reduce the motility (movement) of your gut.  This effect is commonly seen in those who have to take the likes of codeine (also an opiate) for any length of time.

Chocolate also has opioid peptides. But don’t worry, chocolate isn’t usually the cause of constipation!

But Jamie’s main advice was:

[M]any of the people I work with just are not eating enough fat….

People are a bit skeptical when I suggest increasing fat intake to overcome constipation.  Thankfully I can now point to a clinical study in which a high fat diet, in very short time, increased gastrointestinal transit time, reducing the likelihood of constipation occurring;

Gastrointestinal transit, post-prandial lipaemia and satiety following 3 days high-fat diet in men

High-fat diets promote stool passage for several reasons.

Just a tiny bit of undigested fat can help grease the passage of stool through the colon. Even modest amounts of fat in the stool make it difficult to retain feces and cause fecal incontinence. This is why indigestible oils, like jojoba oil or Olestra, cause diarrhea.
A second factor is that bile is released into the intestine when fats are eaten, and bile acids have a laxative effect. Both the primary bile acid chenodeoxycholic acid (CDCA) and the secondary bile acid deoxycholic acid (DCA) act as laxatives by inducing water secretion in the colon. An excess of bile therefore causes diarrhea and an insufficiency can cause constipation. [6] This is why people who have had their gallbladders removed typically develop diarrhea: bile is constantly leaking into the digestive tract.
Just be sure that the high fat you eat comes from healthy natural sources, not high-omega-6 industrially processed seed oils. 
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Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #274 on: September 14, 2015, 05:13:28 PM »
I pulled up "Gastrointestinal physiology" on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrointestinal_physiology#Peristalsis) and thought the chart under "General GI peptide information" was interesting.  The table includes motilin, and notes that the "stimulus for release" is (for humans):

Quote
  Fasting: cyclic release every 1.5–2 hours by neural stimulus 

Check this out:  https://books.google.com/books?id=n8SV9iM6kT0C&pg=PA1080&lpg=PA1080&dq=amino+acids,+motilin&source=bl&ots=ZDHCenidib&sig=fAxirriw4zMCRgdwWVcAaVCjgk8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItdmC2aj3xwIVi3k-Ch3vOQPy#v=onepage&q=amino%20acids%2C%20motilin&f=false

Scroll down to page 1082 (the link should bring you to page 1080) and look at figure 2 and the text next to it.  If I'm reading it right, it sounds like motility improves when there's time between meals.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 05:25:50 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #275 on: September 15, 2015, 05:06:38 AM »
Overwhelmed with info and gratitude!  It's going to take me a while to read and digest, but the bottom line seems to be, perhaps supplementing amino acids may help. The next question is...HOW?

Dee, I've tried digestive enzymes for Mazy cat before.  They didn't make any difference as far as improvement and she became very quiet and much less active. So I stopped them (kept her on them for 3 or 4 months)

She just puked her breakfast, for no reason at all that I can see.  She'd already pooped and peed, had been very lively and playful this morning.  Then I gave her her second serving, 20 minutes after the 1st, and up it came. Saturday was her last regurge, and that was after a 7 day span.  So still, no pattern.  No pattern at all.

Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #276 on: September 15, 2015, 11:56:41 AM »
Overwhelmed with info and gratitude!  It's going to take me a while to read and digest, but the bottom line seems to be, perhaps supplementing amino acids may help. The next question is...HOW?

You know, after I posted all that my mind kept coming back to this:

I pulled up "Gastrointestinal physiology" on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrointestinal_physiology#Peristalsis) and thought the chart under "General GI peptide information" was interesting.  The table includes motilin, and notes that the "stimulus for release" is (for humans):

Check this out:  https://books.google.com/books?id=n8SV9iM6kT0C&pg=PA1080&lpg=PA1080&dq=amino+acids,+motilin&source=bl&ots=ZDHCenidib&sig=fAxirriw4zMCRgdwWVcAaVCjgk8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMItdmC2aj3xwIVi3k-Ch3vOQPy#v=onepage&q=amino%20acids%2C%20motilin&f=false

Scroll down to page 1082 (the link should bring you to page 1080) and look at figure 2 and the text next to it.  If I'm reading it right, it sounds like motility improves when there's time between meals.

I have no idea if it's doable for you or Mazy, but I'm thinking that if there's a way to reduce the number of meals (I think she's getting 16 now since she doesn't get the midnight meal anymore?) and increase the portion sizes of the meals you keep, and spreading them out more, that maybe that would help the motility issue?  When I reviewed the thread, it looked like she'd improved enough to take bigger meals, but I don't remember how big.  But again, that's if your schedule allows you to do it, if you're comfortable doing it, and if Mazy can handle it.  Only you can decide that.

As for the amino acids . . . I really wish I'd found something that made me go "Aha!" like I did with the ACV, but that didn't happen.  My gut is telling me that reducing the number of meals, etc. would help more than the aminos.  If you did want to try the aminos, "how" is a really good question.  I know Bragg makes a liquid amino, but I have no idea what other ingredients are in it, or if it's safe to give a cat.  If you like, I can look into it more.

Dee, I've tried digestive enzymes for Mazy cat before.  They didn't make any difference as far as improvement and she became very quiet and much less active. So I stopped them (kept her on them for 3 or 4 months)

I wonder if the reason they didn't help her is because she didn't have enough stomach acid at the time.  Enzymes need acid to work.  You had said her whiskers became long and lush, then got skimpy again when she went off of them, but then they because long and lush again after you started adding the ACV.  Which lead me to think that the extra acid was enabling the enzymes to do their thing.  So now that she's getting the ACV, adding enzymes might work this time.  It's up to you if you want to try it again.

She just puked her breakfast, for no reason at all that I can see.  She'd already pooped and peed, had been very lively and playful this morning.  Then I gave her her second serving, 20 minutes after the 1st, and up it came. Saturday was her last regurge, and that was after a 7 day span.  So still, no pattern.  No pattern at all.

 :(  Do you think the days getting shorter may have anything to do with it?  Maybe adding one of those light bulbs for people with SAD in a room where she spends a lot of time might help?

I know I posted a lot of info.  Please take your time looking it over.  In the end, you have to go with what rings true to you.

grouphug
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 11:58:49 AM by Pookie »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #277 on: September 15, 2015, 02:06:43 PM »
If after you review all this, you decide you want to try the amino acid route, I did a quick search.  I wouldn't use the Bragg liquid aminos because they're made from (non-GMO) soy.  So I looked at the supplement company that made Pookie's probiotic, and they have bee pollen (not to be confused with pollen from actual flowers).  In doing a handful of searches, it appears that bee pollen is safe for pets, and it contains a lot of amino acids, b vitamins, etc.  It's considered a "whole" food.

I want to look into this more, but wanted to toss the info. out there as an option.

Edit:  Here's another option:  Leave things as they are, and see how Mazy does when the canned food runs out and she's on all raw.  Because it seems like all raw works miracles.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 06:36:55 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #278 on: September 27, 2015, 07:19:10 PM »
I hope I don't appear ungrateful having not returned to this thread lately.  I am eternally grateful and still reading things over. 

One thing I want to answer at the moment:

Quote
ut I'm thinking that if there's a way to reduce the number of meals (I think she's getting 16 now since she doesn't get the midnight meal anymore?) and increase the portion sizes of the meals you keep, and spreading them out more, that maybe that would help the motility issue? 


The 16 is servings rather than meals.  Mazy really can't manage more than .3 (that's 3/10) of an ounce of canned at a time, or .35 oz of rad cat at a time.

So in the morning (after an 8 hour fast) she gets a total of 1.6 ounces spread out over 2 hours.  Then there is a 6 1/2 hour fast and she gets .4 oz for lunch.  Then there is three hours until supper meals start.  Between 5 and 9 PM I have to get 2.1 ounces into her.

Goes like this:
5 pm and 5:15 pm. .5 oz of canned split (second serving has EYL)

6:30 pm and 6:45 pm .55 of rad cat split

8 pm and 8:15 pm .55 oz rad cat split

9 pm and 9:15 pm .5 canned split (1st serving has probiotic and ACV, second serving has 1/2 Vet's-Best)

You may be right that going all rad cat will be the answer for her.  But I still haven't been able to figure out the logistics of it, for my OWN quality of life.

Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2015, 09:43:58 PM »
I remembered that you had noticed a sort of pattern with Mazy's shedding in the fall and winter, and I had wondered if one of those light bulbs for people with S.A.D. would help.  Since we're heading into "that time of year," I just wanted to toss that idea out there.  I think I mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, which is why I'm putting this here and not in the "Mazy refused her supper" thread.

It's just a suggestion.  I have absolutely no idea if it would make a difference or not.   HeadButt

Edit:  I found it -- the last post on page 15 and first post on page 16 of this thread.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 09:46:55 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #280 on: October 23, 2015, 05:06:04 AM »
Thanks Pookie. 

But shedding is a normal part of their cycle, you know?  The old fur has to be shed for the new fur to grow in. Or maybe I'm just making excuses because I hate them.

Probably we could all benefit from a SAD light if I could tolerate it, which I am not sure I could.  I used to know someone who had one and I couldn't even be in the same room when she had it on, it was really awful.

I think Mazy cat's problems go much deeper than the amount of shedding she does.  I've done enough reading to know what chronic vomiting of this type ultimately leads to.  And I do worry that week of diarrhea episodes may be a start to that next stage.  Time will tell. I am still adamant that I am not going to put Mazy cat through a lot of stuff. Quantity does not always mean quality, and for Mazy cat especially, I just won't put her through it.  Tolly, I took to Cornell because I knew he could handle it. Ootay too.  Either one of those I probably would have taken to the vet if they had the illness Mazy just went through. With Mazy cat I have to really weigh the need against her stress.

Offline Pookie

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #281 on: October 23, 2015, 12:41:05 PM »
But shedding is a normal part of their cycle, you know?  The old fur has to be shed for the new fur to grow in. Or maybe I'm just making excuses because I hate them.

I know, it just seems like it really affects Mazy.  It was just a suggestion, with the thought that it might help reduce the severity of those episodes, but you know Mazy and what's best for her.

I'm still hoping that the diarrhea episodes were due to something like the SEB, the Rad Cat turkey or something like that.   fingerscrossed  Please try to stay positive.  You know she'll pick up on the worrying.

grouphug
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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #282 on: October 24, 2015, 08:28:37 AM »
Well I know her but I can't say I can know what's best for her as far as the light.  But I'm a little afraid of those things, and as I said my experiences of exposure to one was not pleasant.

You've helped Mazy so much I am so grateful to you and don't mean to sound ungrateful about the light.  But my gut feeling is against it.  My resistance (to the point of aversion) to it goes pretty deep so I need to pay attention to that, you know?

I'll keep thinking about it, and my reasons for not wanting to try it and if my feeling changes I'll let you know.

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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #283 on: October 24, 2015, 12:25:59 PM »
You've helped Mazy so much I am so grateful to you and don't mean to sound ungrateful about the light.  But my gut feeling is against it.  My resistance (to the point of aversion) to it goes pretty deep so I need to pay attention to that, you know?

You've got to go with your gut, and if it says "no" then listen to it.  Just to clarify (and I'm not trying to change your mind), I wasn't suggested you replace all the bulbs in your home with the SAD bulbs, just one.

But absolutely, you have to listen to your intuition.  I've always regretted it when I ignored mine.  Mazy is so lucky to have you!
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Re: The Outside Dilemma
« Reply #284 on: October 24, 2015, 12:50:26 PM »
I'm just tossing this out there as something to consider for Mazy cat.  I have NO idea if it would help her or not, and it would involve a trip to the vet for the labwork, which I know is very stressful for her and you.  I just want to pass on the information so you have it, in case, down the road, you decide it may be worth trying:

http://drplechner.com/the-cause-of-irritable-bowel-syndrome-ibs-in-dogs-and-cats/

I'm going to create a new thread for this doctor's website as well.
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