Parenting-Furkids

Non Species Specific Furkid Topics => Reaching One Furkid Parent At A Time... => Apple Cider Vinegar FOR PETS TOO! => Topic started by: Lola on June 24, 2014, 05:23:06 PM

Title: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 24, 2014, 05:23:06 PM
THIS POST DIDN'T START OUT HERE.  But since ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) is working for Arrows (and others)... the thread has been moved here.  :) 

First of all, he has NEVER been a barfer.. no food or hairballs.  Never ever.  Last week, he brought up dark brown (definitely not black) liquid, about 2 or 3 times... different days.  My first thought was... food and/or protein change...but it isn't food regurgitated consistency.  It is smooth, not lumpy. 
There are a few very small very dark specks in it also.  Could be an ingredient from one of the foods... or maybe it is blood.  It does look like coffee grounds, but there is only maybe 6 "grounds," if that matters. 
He is maintaining his regular weight, but we recently started giving him a little extra, because he looks thinner... and he loves his food... and stays active enough, that we assume he won't chub out.
He isn't doing it right before, or after, meals.
Another vet gave him a convenia shot in December.   >:(  From what I have read online... I think any issues, would have showed up, before now. 
He goes to the vet on Friday.  Full general physical is automatic.  I will ask that a senior blood panel be done.  I think I have to ask for a urinalysis also.... vet doesn't just automatically do one. That should be done, right?
Any tips or suggestions?

More info, in case it helps.  He has been with us for 4 years.  4 years ago, the vet (not my regular one) said he was 6 years old... so, he will be 10 in August. 
He was fed kibble, for his first 6 years. 

One more thing, that made me rule out a food problem... Jenkins (cat) and Lacy (dog) are barf eaters.  I know... gross.  Neither of them will go NEAR this stuff! 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on June 24, 2014, 06:10:39 PM
Ugh, this doesn't sound good.  I hope I am wrong.  Yes, definitely get blood work, including thyroid.  A lot of vets don't automatically add that. And urinalysis if you can't get him there with a full bladder.

What food change? Have you started the Hare Today?  I'm wondering if maybe he's just having trouble with the bone content?  Is he still eating okay?  How about the litter box?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 24, 2014, 06:50:14 PM
Ugh, this doesn't sound good.  I hope I am wrong.  Yes, definitely get blood work, including thyroid.  A lot of vets don't automatically add that. And urinalysis if you can't get him there with a full bladder.

What food change? Have you started the Hare Today?  I'm wondering if maybe he's just having trouble with the bone content?  Is he still eating okay?  How about the litter box?

Wrote what you said down, and put the note in my purse. 
I added Nature's Variety canned back into the mix.  Just not enough brands in rotation, for my liking.  BUT one of the barfs was before it was fed.  Hubby just reminded me.
He is eating GREAT... just like normal.
Litter box... I looked verrrrry closely, when scooping today.  Everything looks good.  No exploding diarrhea for sure.  Loose stools would be difficult to detect. 
I could just be panicking about the possible coffee grounds looking items, but ... the two barf eaters not going near it.  That is a clear sign... of something. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 24, 2014, 06:58:34 PM
Just can't get any cuter, than this guy:
(https://parenting-furkids.com/gallery/1_02_07_11_1_45_05.jpeg)

He is a LOVE bug.  Loves everyone.  He is the only cat that "socializes" with company....when he isn't going through their purses.  :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on June 24, 2014, 07:19:21 PM
He is a Precious Red Boy.  I love them all!  It definitely doesn't sound like a food issue, since this started before the re-add.

My line should say "if you CAN get him there with a full bladder" by the way. :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Shadow on June 25, 2014, 12:52:06 AM
Oh sorry to hear that Lola, the last time my cats puked like that was when I gave them a wet food with flax seed in it.
Does the food you feed have flax in it?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 25, 2014, 09:33:01 AM
Oh sorry to hear that Lola, the last time my cats puked like that was when I gave them a wet food with flax seed in it.
Does the food you feed have flax in it?

By Nature Duck has flaxseed, and he ate it the night before!!  I thought I was doing good with spinach waaaay down on the list, and no carrageenan or Montmorillonite clay.  I sooooooo hope that is it...sure seems HIGHY possible.     yaygif  Thank YOU.   I was just sick about him... now, I have hope.   DrLisaPiersonWorthy
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on June 25, 2014, 10:36:30 AM
This is probably difficult, with the number of furkids you have, but do you keep a journal of what you feed and when?  Maybe in Arrows case, document what/when you feed him and when he barfs, just to help you confirm/rule out the NV.

I agree with MC, definitely get the urinalysis, etc.  If nothing else, at least you'll have a baseline to refer back to in the future if, heaven forbid, he ever has other issues.

I truly hope it's something as simple as the flax seed.  fingerscrossed  grouphug
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 25, 2014, 02:55:19 PM
This is probably difficult, with the number of furkids you have, but do you keep a journal of what you feed and when?  Maybe in Arrows case, document what/when you feed him and when he barfs, just to help you confirm/rule out the NV.

I agree with MC, definitely get the urinalysis, etc.  If nothing else, at least you'll have a baseline to refer back to in the future if, heaven forbid, he ever has other issues.

I truly hope it's something as simple as the flax seed.  fingerscrossed  grouphug

I did jot down notes, for this situation, starting on Monday.  I'm still taking Arrows to the vet, on Friday.  I just feel a little better about it. 
I guess the only way to test the flaxseed idea, is to feed it again?  That just sounds so wrong to "want" to make him sick, but it would give a definite answer. 

Lacy (dog) is going with us, to get her nails trimmed.  The other place was so worried she would live up to the Pitbull name, they didn't do a very good job.  As much as I hate the drive to "my" vet, I'm going to have to just go there for now on. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 11:00:49 AM
Today is the day Arrows goes to the vet.  He hasn't left any puddles of "stuff," since Monday.  I mopped every square inch of the house yesterday, so I would be sure to SEE every square inch.  Even if something had been cleaned up, by one of the barf cleaners, some evidence would be left behind. 

It is good it isn't constant, but...  I almost don't want to take him, because I don't want to know.  I WILL... but I'm just sick about it. 

By the way, I did feed him the food with flaxseed again... to test it.  I SO wanted that to be the problem.  Everything stayed down. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on June 27, 2014, 11:04:45 AM
It is good it isn't constant, but...  I almost don't want to take him, because I don't want to know.  I WILL... but I'm just sick about it. 

I'm so sorry you're having this scare. I know that kind of feeling from Dannyboy. "No I don't want to know what it is, I just want it out of him! He's too old to put through the continual trauma of anything else, and you know it."

Things like that are one of the scariest feelings on earth. Keeping our paws crossed for the visit today!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 27, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
 fingerscrossed fingerscrossed GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes

It really shouldn't have to be this hard...
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Shadow on June 27, 2014, 11:37:56 AM
Positive thoughts your way  HeadButt
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on June 27, 2014, 12:33:46 PM
Sending purrs and crossing paws . . .

CatPurr fingerscrossed GoodVibes
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on June 27, 2014, 04:09:41 PM
Love and hugs and vibes and prayers abound.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 06:28:36 PM
We are back!  I'm ready for a nap.  I swear, taking human babies to the doctor was less worrisome.  lol
Blood work and urinalysis done... will know results on Monday.  I THINK I mentioned thyroid testing.   :-[  There was something he mentioned, that he wanted to add to the test, for a "few bucks more." It would eliminate a question he may have later.  I told him to add anything.  I'd rather pay for possibly unnecessary testing now, then have to put Arrows through another blood test later.
The physical part of check-up went very well.  Arrows looks to be in GREAT shape.  No obvious lumps.  Stomach lining didn't feel thickened. 
Assuming all test results come back good... the vet is leaning towards a food allergy, even if I haven't changed brands.  Something I forgot about, that he didn't ..companies changing ingredients or batches being different. 
He suggested (we are already doing it) keeping track of what he eats when, or just feed him one brand.  You all know the drill.  If that doesn't pinpoint a brand... Pepcid.
I don't think it was food barf, but... I haven't seen food barf in a VERY long time.  I was thinking food barf would be at least a little lumpy.  The vet didn't actually see, whatever it was, so he has only my explanation to go on.
At this point, cancer isn't on the table.  I did ask about an x-ray or .... darn... the other thing that is more accurate... to remove all doubt.  Vet talked me out of it... "One step at a time." 

He mentioned Lucky.  He believes she had IBD... the worst case he has ever seen.  I have to stop there...   :'(






 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on June 27, 2014, 06:39:10 PM
Well thank goodness he's not just blowing your concerns off!

Honestly, IF I found the barf again, I'd get a plastic spoon, and scrape up as much as I could into a little glass jar--like a pizza sauce jar. Yes, I save several of those things JIC. I'm always saving "supplies" for just in cases.

Then if Arrows does it again, you can spoon the barf into the jar, and take it to the vet for him to look at. Our vet was used to me dragging things in there from Dannyboy after he started all the problems when I wanted to know something that didn't seem QUITE like an emergency, but might be. . .just in case.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 07:20:41 PM
Funny that you mention it, because I was actually thinking of doing that.  Would refrigerating it, keep it close to its natural state? 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on June 27, 2014, 07:27:19 PM
Funny that you mention it, because I was actually thinking of doing that.  Would refrigerating it, keep it close to its natural state? 

I think I'd be wanting to get it to them within 24 hours no matter what I did with it. But yes, I'd refrigerate it just in case there are any bacteria in there. Don't want them growing and taking over.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 07:35:16 PM
I was thinking I would get it there, within 24 hours...so the vet could see for himself. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 27, 2014, 09:01:38 PM
I'm slime for being so RUDE.  Thank you all for the prayers, crossed paws, and positive vibes.  I SO appreciate ALL of you. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on June 28, 2014, 07:30:05 AM
Ultrasound?  Is that the word you are looking for?

Saving some of the vomit is a GREAT idea!

What do you mean rude?  I didn't see anywhere you were rude?

Love to you and Arrows and all the gang. Is there a story behind his name? I've always been curious about it.  Is it a play on Eros? Or does his fur patter have Arrows?  It's the 's' at the end that keeps me wondering...
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 28, 2014, 01:35:15 PM
Ultrasound?  Is that the word you are looking for?

Saving some of the vomit is a GREAT idea!

What do you mean rude?  I didn't see anywhere you were rude?

Love to you and Arrows and all the gang. Is there a story behind his name? I've always been curious about it.  Is it a play on Eros? Or does his fur patter have Arrows?  It's the 's' at the end that keeps me wondering...

Ultrasound... that was it.  It just wouldn't come to mind, and I didn't care enough to think harder.  lol
I meant I was rude for not thanking everyone for their help and kindness.   ;D
Eros was his original name.  His FIRST mom, that dumped him, gave him that name.  I didn't like the name.  That is the only name he knew for 5-6 years, before joining our family.  So I went with a rhyme-y name, as to not confuse him.  I sing him the song "Me And My Arrow" all the time.  He loves it.   Silly7

No new liquid "piles."  We have rotated through all the foods... same batches as well.  Normally, that would be a good thing.... except it pretty much blows the food allergy theory. 
If it had only been once (and looked like food), I probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. 

It is possible the years of being fed dry, are catching up to him now that he is older. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on June 28, 2014, 08:32:47 PM
I'm having a blank moment, here, but I'm thinking regurgitated food tends to be smoother than vomited food, which has been in the tummy longer.  But I could have that backwards.

I'm wondering if he ate a bug or something (when outside?) that didn't agree with him, and it just took a couple of tries before his body got rid of it and now he's fine.  Total speculation on my part.  And I'm reaaaaallllly hoping you can avoid the pepcid.

Quote
Assuming all test results come back good... the vet is leaning towards a food allergy, even if I haven't changed brands.  Something I forgot about, that he didn't ..companies changing ingredients or batches being different. 

I completely forgot about that.   :-[  But if he hasn't had any problems since, then maybe it was a 1-time thing that he ate (that maybe he shouldn't have eaten) that didn't agree with him.  fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 29, 2014, 01:28:23 PM
I'm having a blank moment, here, but I'm thinking regurgitated food tends to be smoother than vomited food, which has been in the tummy longer.  But I could have that backwards.

I'm wondering if he ate a bug or something (when outside?) that didn't agree with him, and it just took a couple of tries before his body got rid of it and now he's fine.  Total speculation on my part.  And I'm reaaaaallllly hoping you can avoid the pepcid.

I completely forgot about that.   :-[  But if he hasn't had any problems since, then maybe it was a 1-time thing that he ate (that maybe he shouldn't have eaten) that didn't agree with him.  fingerscrossed

That is what has me a bit nervous... it wasnt a one time thing.  He has done it several times... about once a week, for 4 or 5 weeks.  It took me a while to figure out WHO was doing it... I was never at home, at the time.  One day he came running into the room, and .... well, I figured it out.  :) 
In general, we don't have a lot of bugs.    The no-see-ums seem to hang out only in the thick grass. Lizards only come out, after dark.  The enclosure is closed off before dark.  There may be other bugs that I am not aware of. 
He has been re-fed (new word) all the foods in the cupboard... since the last episode, on Monday.  All the foods are the same cases/batches.
I don't use any chemicals.  I even limit vinegar use, on the floors, to once a week.  Hey, maybe THAT is it.  Once a week "barfing," and washing floors with vinegar. 
Hopefully, I will know more on Monday.  Actually, I am kinda hoping I won't.  Meaning nothing bad showing up on his blood work.  Especially, if it stops. 
If I had to pull a guess out of my ear :) (and thinking of Lucky's demise) I would say he probably has SOME stomach issues, from dry feeding days.  As they age, their stomachs get more sensitive.
Why are you hoping no Pepcid?  What do I need to know about Pepcid?  :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on June 29, 2014, 02:48:46 PM
Long term use of pepcid can lead to constipation and Vitamin B depletion.  That I know from my own reading, and from Pookie.  What my vet told me is it (long term use)can cause the stomach to become too alkaline.

But it definitely has it's place in cat care.  Mazy was on it in a pulse method, two weeks on, two weeks off, for about two years. I didn't really see any difference in her patterns. Then about 6 months ago,  when I put her on it for the next round, two days in a row she regurgitated the dose (and meal that went with it of course) so I decided that was her body's way of saying the pepcid was not helping her.

(It can however help cats with diseases like CKD)

I think Pookie hit the nail on the head when she suggested Mazy's problem was lack of acid rather than too much.  I think the ACV is helping her a LOT.

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 30, 2014, 10:50:45 AM
I'm soooooooo not "into" meds, if at all possible.  But...Roxy takes 1/2 of of a 10mg a day.  She is the reason we went to 3 meals a day, instead of two.  Beef was also a trigger.  I don't feed anything that uses the word "beef."  One of the reasons I am often hesitant to feed something, other than chicken and turkey.  Those are two proteins she had the least amount of trouble with.  3 meals and no beef, helped a LOT, but didn't completely stop the regurgitating.  The Pepcid completely stops the regurgitating and projectile vomiting. 
I hate to mess with something that isn't "broke," but you have also given me something to think about.

I don't know the exact history, for most of our cats... before they joined the family.  The one thing they all have in common is... kibble. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: TesterDawg on June 30, 2014, 01:21:01 PM
"All of Arrows' tests were remarkably normal." 

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 30, 2014, 01:22:17 PM
^^^^^
Sorry... forgot I was doing some testing with that ID. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 30, 2014, 01:30:15 PM
I know I can be a worry wart, but I also know I missed some pretttttty crucial signs before.  I just don't want any repeated mistakes.  My furkids, like all of yours, are my family.  They aren't a plant...or something that can be replaced or forgotten.
I'm glad his tests were normal.  I know tests don't show everything.  I am relieved... sorta. 
I just can't imagine what would cause him to regurgitate... once a week, for several weeks. 
The vet had no suggestions, other than to move on.  Not his exact words.  Should I chalk it up to something that can't be explained... as long as it isn't continuing? 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on June 30, 2014, 03:01:30 PM

I know I can be a worry wart, but I also know I missed some pretttttty crucial signs before.  I just don't want any repeated mistakes.  My furkids, like all of yours, are my family.  They aren't a plant...or something that can be replaced or forgotten.
I'm glad his tests were normal.  I know tests don't show everything.  I am relieved... sorta. 
I just can't imagine what would cause him to regurgitate... once a week, for several weeks. 
The vet had no suggestions, other than to move on.  Not his exact words.  Should I chalk it up to something that can't be explained... as long as it isn't continuing? 


Just throwing this out there -- could it be something as simple as different (bath) soap being used in your house?  I know how careful you are, so just trying to narrow possibilities down even more because of a blog story Anne J of felinenutrition.org wrote about when she had work done to her floors.  Her cat became verrry sick & IIRC her vet grilled her & her husband about any possible strange newness in the home, no matter how subtle it may have seemed at the time. 


Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on June 30, 2014, 05:51:46 PM
I'm glad everything came back okay!

Maybe you've already ruled this out, but "just in case:"  was this by any chance while you had someone staying in your home?  Perhaps that person had something, e.g. soap, shampoo, scent from laundry detergent that might have triggered something?

I don't remember how long the person was there, though . . .

Or was it maybe while you're neighbor was having the pool removed?

Quote
I think Pookie hit the nail on the head when she suggested Mazy's problem was lack of acid rather than too much.  I think the ACV is helping her a LOT. 

This is just a theory based on what I've learned about digestion, but I'm going to toss it out there:  stomach acid digests protein (meat) and helps break down the minerals in the food so they can be absorbed.  It does not break down carbohydrate.  Sooo . . . . what if . . . by eating carbs (kibble), the stomach was "trained" over time to produce less acid?  Then someone changes the diet to one with more animal protein, BUT the stomach isn't getting the signal, for whatever reason, that it needs to produce more acid?  This was my thinking when I suggested the ACV for Mazy, with the hope that, over time, the stomach would be "retrained" to produce more acid on it's own.

So going with my theory, I wonder if some cats that were fed kibble for significant periods of time, don't produce enough stomach acid and need something like ACV added to their food in order to improve digestion and also to "retrain" the stomach.  Mind you, I have no proof of this and haven't found anything online about it.  It's just a theory.

I would continue to keep an eye on Arrows (and I know you will) and document as much as you can, including any environmental changes that you can think of.  Keep us posted, and we'll keep trying to help.  grouphug
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on June 30, 2014, 07:56:11 PM
CC - I have allergic reactions to so many things, that I rarely make changes, and can't think of any recent ones.  Hubby and I have been trying to come up with something.  Something done differently... once a week...for the last several weeks.

The pool replacement could be a possibility.  The pool folks don't work every day.  I don't pay close enough attention to what days they do/did work.  He not only replaced the entire pool, he replaced ALL the decking AND landscaping. Lots of carp could have been floating through the air. 

Arrows IS very sensitive to smells.  A person wearing heavy after shave could come visit us, and he is sneezing.

Pookie - The house guest is long gone.  She wasn't allowed to use anything smelly.   

I think your theory makes a LOT of sense!  I TRULY think the tummies (of some of mine at least) have been "wrecked" by kibble. 

We are continuing with documenting, so we (hopefully) will be able to see a pattern... if we need to look for one.   
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 01, 2014, 04:36:54 AM
Nothing intelligent to say.  Just wanted to let you know I'm here.  xx
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 01, 2014, 08:37:49 AM
Nothing intelligent to say.  Just wanted to let you know I'm here.  xx

Well...if you were Arrows' mom, what would you do?  :) 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 01, 2014, 09:19:59 AM
Quote
Pookie - The house guest is long gone.  She wasn't allowed to use anything smelly.   

My thinking was more along the lines of whatever laundry detergent she used on the clothes she brought with her/was wearing.  But it was a long shot.   :(
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 01, 2014, 12:39:51 PM
Well...if you were Arrows' mom, what would you do?  :) 

I would be doing exactly what you are doing.  I would be recording everything he eats and when, recording litter box habits, and any vomting or other signs of illness.  Would have taken him to the vet for bloodwork and check up.  Would be watching for patterns related to diet or activty in the house.

Would be thinking that the long histroy of kibble diet was coming home to roost.

I think Pookie is right on target with her thoughts regarding the body not producing enough acid after years of inappropriate diet.  I think that, in part, is what's wrong with Mazy cat (along with the motility issue, also caused by the dry high carb diet) and it is not impossible that is what is going on with Arrows, too, but because of the nature of the vomit I would be worrying a lot.

However, I'm also remembering that the texture of the NV is kind of ...grainy..which could look like coffee grounds in vomit. Not saying the food CAUSED the upset, but it could be that food looks weird coming back up.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 01, 2014, 12:54:09 PM

I think Pookie is right on target with her thoughts regarding the body not producing enough acid after years of inappropriate diet.  I think that, in part, is what's wrong with Mazy cat (along with the motility issue, also caused by the dry high carb diet) and it is not impossible that is what is going on with Arrows, too, but because of the nature of the vomit I would be worrying a lot.


I know I'm not a cat, but I'm inclined to agree with this just because of my past vomiting before discovering apple cider vinegar. Of course, my food allergies that I didn't know I had were the cause, but still. GERD is a witch.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 01, 2014, 04:52:05 PM
Quote
Would be watching for patterns related to diet or activty in the house. 

I would add "and around the house," like the neighbor's pool work.  I know I'm anal retentive, but . . . hey, I'd rather have too much information than not enough.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 01, 2014, 08:39:20 PM
Quick answer, as I can't sit for very long....backache.

If I said NV, I was mistaken...that brand isn't in the food rotation. 
Thanks all... just wanted to be sure there wasn't something everyone else was thinking I should be doing, and I'm sitting here clueless.  :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 02, 2014, 04:44:06 AM
Quote
I added Nature's Variety canned back into the mix.  Just not enough brands in rotation, for my liking.  BUT one of the barfs was before it was fed.  Hubby just reminded me.

What food did you mean then?  One that contains veggies such as spinach maybe? (still looking for a reason for the coffee ground bits)

PS Hope your back is better soon!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 02, 2014, 10:55:38 AM
Quote
By Nature Duck has flaxseed, and he ate it the night before!!

This post maybe?

He has eaten it since... a few times.  All went well. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 02, 2014, 12:33:18 PM
Sending purrs that your back feels better soon.  GoodVibes CatPurr
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 02, 2014, 05:03:02 PM
No the one I quoted above.  On the first page you state that you've added NV back into the mix. NV is very...gritty.

Glad to know everything is going well!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 02, 2014, 07:54:25 PM
Quote
I added Nature's Variety canned back into the mix.

That's my quote.  Talk about MAJOR brain fart! 
Just checked the cupboard... no NV.
I'm going to go check my last few orders... see if I imagined that brand or what!  BRB 

Edit:
Definitely no NV.  I'm not even going to try to figure out what the heck I was thinking...
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 02, 2014, 08:06:16 PM
Looks like I need to keep records for SEVERAL reasons.   :-[
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 02, 2014, 10:10:50 PM
I'm going to explain this, because it has been driving me nuts.  :)
At one time, I was checking the reviews (here) on Nature Variety Instinct flavors.  That lead me to looking at different flavors of BY NATURE.  I normally only feed the organic one.  BUT...after reading...the duck and rabbit sounded as good (or better) than NV.  The non organic and organic packaging is different... and with my limited brain cells... I was thinking it was Nature Variety. 

The down side is... at the moment, I'm still only feeding two brands...more often than not.  Stella & Chewys is in the rotation, but not nearly as often as I would like.  I have recently ordered Weruva chicken something. I would REALLY like to permanently replace Wellness. 

I'm stlll an airhead, but at least now I KNOW where it was that I went into air-head mode.  *sigh*
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 03, 2014, 04:44:47 AM
 funny2 funny2
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 05, 2014, 10:52:10 PM
I saw this earlier somewhere when reading, and since you're getting your cats' blood-work recently, I thought you might want to read it. It's a paper on a lot of "normals" but this one was specifically about blood-work and how to read it:

http://zimmer-foundation.org/sch/ajf.html

Quote
The purpose of this paper is to give a general overview of the two most commonly ordered blood tests, the Chemistry Profile and the Complete Blood Count (CBC).  Simplified tables are provided with the most common values included on these tests, what normal values generally look like, and some notes about what body systems are generally responsible for changes in values.  In many cases, of course, such as electrolytes (sodium, potassium, chloride), virtually any system imbalance can lead to secondary or tertiary abnormalities.  In order to determine the primary cause of an abnormal value, the total clinical picture MUST be considered all together.  In addition, multiple blood values must be considered together, because one often influences another, and because many diseases tend to display a pattern.  Although it is a complex topic, there are some generalizations that can be made to help understand what some of the values are telling us.

There were a lot of other sections in that paper covering a LOT of aspects of a feline workup.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 06, 2014, 09:23:37 AM
Thanks DeeDee.  I wonder if it is "generic" type of info...as far as reading and understanding blood work.  I'm often afraid to read anything, if I am not familiar with the author... especially for cats. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 06, 2014, 09:26:08 AM
It hasn't been going well for Arrows.  I started him on Pepcid yesterday.  I hope I am doing the right thing...
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 06, 2014, 02:39:12 PM
Not to make you crazy . . . I'm just wondering if, like Mazy, he needs more acid, not less.  But then, these days I tend to want to do the opposite of what a vet recommends.  In your case, you like/trust your vet, and I'm certainly no expert on what's going on with Arrows.  Your vet could be right and I'm just paranoid.

Have you noticed any pattern?  Perhaps he's developing a food allergy to something?

Crossing paws and fingers Arrows feels better!  fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 06, 2014, 02:56:42 PM
Not to make you crazy . . . I'm just wondering if, like Mazy, he needs more acid, not less.  But then, these days I tend to want to do the opposite of what a vet recommends.

Crossing paws and fingers Arrows feels better!  fingerscrossed

That's what I'm wondering just because of my own experience with my own stomach. Pepcid and other things like Zantac only held it off, didn't make it better. You can't quit using it. Apple Cider Vinegar with the Mother in it fixed it for the most part--except now as I know, with my food allergies. I was only using it at dinnertime at the end to make sure I didn't get sick while I was sleeping.

The main part of things like Pepcid that scares me is the ruining of your bones.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 06, 2014, 04:56:40 PM
Not to make you crazy . . . I'm just wondering if, like Mazy, he needs more acid, not less.  But then, these days I tend to want to do the opposite of what a vet recommends.  In your case, you like/trust your vet, and I'm certainly no expert on what's going on with Arrows.  Your vet could be right and I'm just paranoid.

Have you noticed any pattern?  Perhaps he's developing a food allergy to something?

Crossing paws and fingers Arrows feels better!  fingerscrossed

Just to clarify:
I like my vet, because ... other choices are MAJOR stinky!   
He doesn't upsell AT ALL. 
If I have knowledge about something, or a belief in something in particular, he is willing to "go with me."  He will explain his reasons, but I get the final word.  No eye rolling.  No condescending remarks. 
Last but not least...he has been a vet for 30 years, but never seems to lose interest in learning new things or changing old beliefs.   

My "problem" with him is... He may believe wet is better, but only in particular situations.  He hasn't reached the point of believing that all KIBBLE is KRAP, and is the cause of so mannnnnny feline issues and diseases.  Therefore, I tend to wonder how often he "misses the boat," if he doesn't get it. 

I am guessing that Arrow's "guts" have issues from his kibble days.  I ASSuME the issues are coming to a head, because he is getting older. ??

I'm open to trying ACV with mother.. a little afraid, but not against it. 

By the way... after the short discussion (a few days ago) about Pepcid, I lowered Roxy's dose.  She regurgitated.  The "good news" is... it looked exactly the same as the stuff Arrow's brings up.  So, I ASSuME it isn't anything Earth shattering, or Roxy would have been a goner a long time ago. 

To back up a bit...Roxy is the reason we do most of the things we do... or have changed, once she joined the family.  No feeding beef... smaller meals more often... never go 8 hours between meals... I don't know what else.  Things just became the "norm."   We "fix" something, when it needs to be fixed.  Until the next fix...

Roxy is also the reason that Pepcid didn't sound "off" to me, because it was recommended by a different vet.  And I know Mazy had taken it for a while.  She has been taking it for a year-ish, and it works.  Works... as in... I had no idea of the "silent" issues it could be causing. 

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 07, 2014, 04:50:35 AM
I think the pepcid did help Mazy cat for a time.  But then 1) it stopped seeming to make any difference and 2) she started puking it (the quarter pill) right back up. By then I was using the SEB and that does seem to help, though I keep her on a low dose, 1/8 tsp a day.

The problem seems to be with these cats ruined by kibble....things we try work for a while, but then stop being effective.  I suspect that even with the pulse method the pepcid did cause her stomach to become too alkaline. 

So, I think starting with the pepcid is a good idea.  If it helps, good, you can work out a regimen.  If it doesn't help, move on to the next thing.

When you say it hasn't been going well for Arrows, what do you mean? Is he vomiting more again? Or regurgitating?  Is it that weird looking stuff?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 07, 2014, 07:57:11 AM
If my theory is correct, that years of a high-carb diet "train" the stomach to produce less acid, then IMO giving pepcid will continue that, when what may be needed is more acid to help with digestion, esp. since, in humans at least, the body produces less acid as we age.  Unless the vet can do a test (if one exists) to see just how much stomach acid Arrows is producing, then there's no way to be sure that he's producing too much and truly needs the pepcid.

This is all just my  2cents.  I just personally have an issue with acid blockers, because without stomach acid, the body isn't getting the vitamins/minerals/nutrients out of the food that it could be.

P.S.  Perhaps Roxy also could use the ACV?  Just tossing these ideas out there . . .
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 07, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
I think the ACV is helping Mazy cat.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 07, 2014, 03:10:41 PM
Just to make sure I am giving both of you all the facts and details...  (in no particular order)

Yes, Arrows started again.  :(  He has been with us for 4 years, and has never even brought up a hairball.  He eats from my plate (only very small amounts of feline safe foods), and has no problems.  He ate a pretty good size lizard once... no problem.  I'm sure if I thought long enough, I could come up with a ton of examples.  lol
Anyway...knowing me... I think I may have went into full panic, because I know barfing isn't normal and it is SO not him... and he's close to 10 years of age, and the Lucky situation, and it wasn't "chunky," like I would expect barf to be, and, the barf eaters not going near it, and, and, and I (maybe...hopefully) got stuck on it being blood.  Remembering now...Leonard threw up blood (at the end)... a lot of color difference. Arrows and Roxy... definitely brown.  Not red and not black.   

IF I understand the difference between barfing and regurgitating... Roxy has always been a regurgitator (new word).  I should say... episodes of regurgitating. 
She doesn't barf up hair balls.  She doesn't barf up food...at least not close to the time she ate it.  However, the beef issue was so long ago, I can't remember those details ... as far as what she did, that made me remove beef.  I do know removing beef stopped, whatever was going on, at the time. 

Roxy goes for looooong periods of time (mannnny months), before starting up again.   It I change something and she starts up... I change it back.  She doesn't go on for weeks.  I usually stumble on a fix pretty quickly... thanks to members here, 99.9% of the time.  :)   

When I lowered Roxy's Pepcid dose recently, and she regurgitated... seeing it, reminded me of what her "stuff" looks like, when she has issues.  It has been a long time...and my memory SUCKS normally... more so, when my head is spinning.  With Arrows "stuff" looking exactly like Roxy's... I came to the assumption it isn't blood.  Roxy couldn't possibly be bringing up blood for 4 years (that I know of)...could she?  Even if she only has issues twice a year... it still covers a 6 year period. 

Just to throw a bit more info out there...Roxy was fed kibble for 2 years.  Not that I think there is good kibble, but I'm willing to bet it was the worst of the worst.  She was ruined at two years old! 

Roxy takes 1/4 of a 10mg table 3 times a day.  I crush it into powder form, because ...no matter how well I hid it, she would find it and spit it out.   

If (when) I make the decision to give Arrows ACV... (it is a "go," as soon as we finish this discussion...unless something I have said, this time around, changes your thoughts)... Roxy will be given the same.

The "body not getting the vitamins, minerals, etc" made me think (uh oh) Roxy is ALWAYS ready to eat.  Not the normal "ready"... like some of the others.  She is the first one to let us know it is meal time.  She circles the counter, while it is bedding prepared.  She YELLS (sometimes growls), until her food is put down.  Her plate has to be put down first, or... she will make SURE the first plate down is hers.  She will FIGHT for the first serving.  Seniority means nothing to her.  ;)  Others do some talking, spinning, dancing, etc... but not to the extent she does. Just in case anyone is wondering, no one ever gets her food.  We keep watch, until everyone is finished eating. 
 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 07, 2014, 03:38:26 PM
Well I'd seriously try it with Arrows for sure. And switch Roxy to it if you see no problems with Arrows. I'm kind of weird. I try it on one and then add it to the other one if there's no odd problems that crop up with the first tester after a week.

I just have no idea how much to give a cat. MC's the expert there. Vlad's been getting a teaspoon full at all 3 meals since his built-up intestinal gas that night. He burps a couple of times after eating now.

Hopefully your testing will work like Mazy and they'll voluntarily eat it like Mazy and Vlad do.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 07, 2014, 04:17:21 PM
Quote
and he's close to 10 years of age, and the Lucky situation, and it wasn't "chunky," like I would expect barf to be,

But if you are feeding pate, why would the barf be chunky?  Mazy's barf is not chunky.  It's smooth (unless there is fur in it, which is rare), and the color of whatever she has just eaten.


Quote
IF I understand the difference between barfing and regurgitating... Roxy has always been a regurgitator (new word).  I should say... episodes of regurgitating.
She doesn't barf up hair balls.  She doesn't barf up food...at least not close to the time she ate it. 

Regurgitation is barfing up food after eating it.  I would say, within a half hour of eating... would be considered regurgitation.

Mazy rarely brings up hairballs.  What was happening for her was, the hairballs get stuck trying to pass, then she regurgitates daily until the fur works it's way through.  We don't have that problem any more, she just had a nice poop, in fact and it was full of fur.  No grass though, which is what I was looking for.

I think, Mazy's trouble is in part because of her reduced motility.  However, to be accurate, she was having this kind of hairball trouble as early as when she was not even 2 years old. So maybe she's always had motility issues, I don't know.  Hmmm...but she was already on the C/D when those troubles started.

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 07, 2014, 09:52:29 PM
Good idea, DeeDee, just giving it to one at a time.  Thanks.

But if you are feeding pate, why would the barf be chunky?  Mazy's barf is not chunky.  It's smooth (unless there is fur in it, which is rare), and the color of whatever she has just eaten.


Regurgitation is barfing up food after eating it.  I would say, within a half hour of eating... would be considered regurgitation.

Mazy rarely brings up hairballs.  What was happening for her was, the hairballs get stuck trying to pass, then she regurgitates daily until the fur works it's way through.  We don't have that problem any more, she just had a nice poop, in fact and it was full of fur.  No grass though, which is what I was looking for.

I think, Mazy's trouble is in part because of her reduced motility.  However, to be accurate, she was having this kind of hairball trouble as early as when she was not even 2 years old. So maybe she's always had motility issues, I don't know.  Hmmm...but she was already on the C/D when those troubles started.



Not all the foods are pate.  Good point though, about the pate not being chunky. 
The color is always the same.. no matter what was eaten last.  It happens about mid-way, in-between meals.  USUALLY "only" once a day.  More often between breakfast and lunch, than other times. 

I looked over my notes, as far as what they eat and for what meal.  Can't see ANY sort of pattern.  I even had hubby look... just in case.  Oh, I also rotated out (a few days) any suspected brands or flavors.  I didn't jerk around too much though...before giving the Pepcid...didn't want him barfing for days on end.

Speaking of barfing, I think I will just use the term "barf," rather than say one thing... when something else is actually happening. *insert Doofus smiley*

I just mentioned that there are no hairball issues, in case anyone was wondering. 

I am THRILLED for Mazy (and you) that hairballs are a non-issue for her.  Sorry no grass in her poo though.  :(  Maybe someday...SOON!  Your Mazy is why I HATE Hill's, more than just the average hater.   >:(  Motility issues are certainly no picnic, from what I have read... and what you have said.  My heart just breaks for her.   
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 07, 2014, 09:54:42 PM
PS
Lola is the only one that has never been fed kibble...other than a little bit, when we would play "chase the kibble."  I also cleaned my floors (and other things), for mannnnny years with chemicals.  Commercial wet food isn't the greatest scenario either.  She has been exposed to all kinds of carp, in her 6 years, but a lot less carp than the others.  It will be interesting... 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 08, 2014, 12:24:53 AM
I just think it's easier to be able to observe one body for changes than it is to be trying to observe both bodies for changes.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 08, 2014, 04:41:27 AM
Mazy still has hairball issues.  What I said was, she never brings them up.  They get stuck, passing through the other way. Vet thinks this is the cause of her cyclic regurgitation. What I meant by not having that problem is not having the daily regurgitation. I think, I don't know why I put it that way, it makes no sense when I read it now.  Sorry about that.

Keep us posted on Arrows, and Roxy.  I didn't realize Roxy was on so much pepcid. 1/4 table 3 times a day seems like a lot. How long has she been taking it?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 08, 2014, 08:05:47 AM
As much as I don't like pepcid, just to make things easier I would hold off on giving Roxy the ACV for a bit and stick with what you're doing for her.  I'm still having brain fog issues, but I seem to remember reading something that stated that, when taken off an acid blocker, the body initially will produce even MORE acid, and if that's the case, Roxy may need to be on reduced doses instead of going "cold turkey."  I want to look for that paperwork again, though, and it's been hard to focus on what I read lately.

Just to make things easier all around, let's focus on Arrows for now.  MC was giving Mazy 1 drop of ACV in 1 meal/day.  If you're seeing a pattern, say, it's his breakfast he tends to bring up, then that might be the meal to start with.  If there's no pattern like that, then I guess just pick a meal?   :-\

fingerscrossed and crossing paws the ACV helps!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 08, 2014, 11:58:51 AM
I just think it's easier to be able to observe one body for changes than it is to be trying to observe both bodies for changes.

Agree!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 08, 2014, 12:20:58 PM
Mazy still has hairball issues.  What I said was, she never brings them up.  They get stuck, passing through the other way. Vet thinks this is the cause of her cyclic regurgitation. What I meant by not having that problem is not having the daily regurgitation. I think, I don't know why I put it that way, it makes no sense when I read it now.  Sorry about that.

Keep us posted on Arrows, and Roxy.  I didn't realize Roxy was on so much pepcid. 1/4 table 3 times a day seems like a lot. How long has she been taking it?

To make sure I understand... you know Mazy is having a problem passing a hairball, because she regurgitates.  When the hairball is passed, the regurgitation stops.  Any chance I got that right? 
Roxy has been taking Pepcid for close to a year.  The original recommended dose was 10 mg a day.  I started with half that...just to see.  The lower dose worked.  She only recently-ish moved up to 3/4.  When I scaled back to 1/2 (last week?), she barfed... two days in a row.  I moved her back up to 3/4.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 08, 2014, 12:29:54 PM
As much as I don't like pepcid, just to make things easier I would hold off on giving Roxy the ACV for a bit and stick with what you're doing for her.  I'm still having brain fog issues, but I seem to remember reading something that stated that, when taken off an acid blocker, the body initially will produce even MORE acid, and if that's the case, Roxy may need to be on reduced doses instead of going "cold turkey."  I want to look for that paperwork again, though, and it's been hard to focus on what I read lately.

Just to make things easier all around, let's focus on Arrows for now.  MC was giving Mazy 1 drop of ACV in 1 meal/day.  If you're seeing a pattern, say, it's his breakfast he tends to bring up, then that might be the meal to start with.  If there's no pattern like that, then I guess just pick a meal?   :-\

fingerscrossed and crossing paws the ACV helps!

Reducing the amount of Pepcid, for Roxy, didn't work out.  She is on hold, as far as any changes.  Arrows... I better make a decision.  I'll start him tomorrow. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 08, 2014, 12:30:32 PM
How much Pepcid did Mazy used to take?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 12, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
What do you use to measure a drop of ACV... or is it literally a drop? 
I put my finger over the bottle opening, and let a drop fall into his food yesterday.   :-\  He didn't blink an eye!  Ate his meal, like normal.  I was stunned.  That stuff smells and tastes like ______!!! 

Arrows is a VERY good eater though.  Roxy will walk away from her dish, if she even THINKS her food has been doctored.  If she was a human child, she would be a snot.  I say that lovingly.   ;D
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 12, 2014, 06:10:23 PM
I'm not sure how MC is doing it, but I was thinking that if you have an eye-dropper or a syringe (not sure if that's a larger opening), use that to literally add 1 drop to the food.

Crossing paws and fingers fingerscrossed that it helps him!

Roxy will walk away from her dish, if she even THINKS her food has been doctored.  If she was a human child, she would be a snot.  I say that lovingly.   ;D

 funny2
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 13, 2014, 07:42:45 AM
If Arrows goes more than 7 days... that will tell me the ACV is working. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 14, 2014, 08:11:17 AM
fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 14, 2014, 06:25:48 PM
I have some serious heartburn going on today.  The Pepcid isn't working for me.  Usually it does.  Maybe it is time for me to guzzle some ACV!  I wonder how it would taste in a margarita?  HA HA HA
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 14, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
I have some serious heartburn going on today.  The Pepcid isn't working for me.  Usually it does.  Maybe it is time for me to guzzle some ACV!  I wonder how it would taste in a margarita?  HA HA HA

It's a whole lot easier to swallow if you mix it in a big glass of ice cold water--I prefer Perrier with it though.

I started with a teaspoon full and worked my way up to a tablespoon before every meal. And slowly lowered how many times a day until it was just at dinner at night.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 14, 2014, 08:17:51 PM
I tried it once...with a large glass of water and honey.  It was HORRIBLE.  I know it is good for all sorts of things, but I just can't gag it down. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 14, 2014, 08:38:00 PM
I tried it once...with a large glass of water and honey.  It was HORRIBLE.  I know it is good for all sorts of things, but I just can't gag it down. 

You've just got to pretend you've got the hiccups and hold your breath until the glass is empty.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 14, 2014, 09:40:18 PM
Next time I have heartburn, I will.  Maybe.  If I remember.  ;)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 15, 2014, 04:38:16 AM
What do you use to measure a drop of ACV... or is it literally a drop? 
I put my finger over the bottle opening, and let a drop fall into his food yesterday.   :-\  He didn't blink an eye!  Ate his meal, like normal.  I was stunned.  That stuff smells and tastes like ______!!! 

Arrows is a VERY good eater though.  Roxy will walk away from her dish, if she even THINKS her food has been doctored.  If she was a human child, she would be a snot.  I say that lovingly.   ;D

I use the "drop" size of these spoons:

http://smile.amazon.com/Norpro-3080-Stainless-Measuring-smidgen/dp/B0009X1P9S/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1405416971&sr=8-12&keywords=measuring+spoons

Using an eye dropper I figuredout  that that size is approximately 3 tiny drops.

The ACV takes some getting used to.  I can drink it either way now, a plain tablespoon of it in a glass of water (chugged down) or a 6 ounce glass of my ACV-honey-cinnamon mixture.  Also chugged.

Chugging is a learned skill, also.  I was a champion beer chugger in my late teens, so I have no trouble chugging 6-8 ounces of Bragg's ACV and water.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 15, 2014, 10:41:00 AM
Those measuring spoons are COOL.  Had no idea, something like that, existed! 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 08:32:10 AM
How is Arrows doing?  Has he passed the 7-day mark yet?  fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
He went from once every few days, to daily.  It was a lessor amount.  Sometimes there was a small hairball, as well.  He has NEVER had hairball issue before.  Never ever... not even once. 

Can a cat be given too much ACV? 
Does it take time to work?
I probably should have asked those questions days ago. 

I'm using a dropper... half full.  One (half dropper) didn't change things much.  Two... better.  Half dropper 3x a day... nothing comes up.  PLEASE let me know, if that is too much ACV... in your opinion(s). 

I also totally removed Wellness from rotation... on a hunch. I played around with foods before, but only for a day or so.  Is it possible for it to take a few days, to see a reaction?  I thought I would see a food reaction within at least 24 hours.  ??

Part of me wants to continue, as I am doing.  If all continues to go well, for several weeks... add back in Wellness, just as a test.  I'm HAPPY not having Wellness in the rotation...finally.  I just am curious.  It would be a cruel test though. 

Is ACV a good thing, for a cat, in general?  I ask because... I was thinking ...after several weeks of no issues...stopping the ACV would tell me the problem was Wellness.  Maybe.

I've been trying to remove Wellness for a very long time, but I didn't want to change to a brand with worse ingredients. Similar brands/ingredients had other issues.  It was always something...

The Wellness removal and 3x a day ACV were done at the same time.  I could kick myself (now) for making two changes, at the same time.  It didn't hit me, at the time.  I was just trying to come up with SOMETHING to help him. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 10:40:41 AM
If my rambling was confusing...

No barf for 5 days. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 11:43:28 AM
:(

Ok, brain fog is kicking in . . . no barf for 5 days using 1/2 dropper of ACV 3xday?  Then he started having daily hairballs?  Or did the hairballs and barfing stop after the ACV was increased to 3xday?  I'm a bit confused about the timeline of what happened when.

That does seem like a lot of ACV to me.  When did you cut out the Wellness?  If it's been about a week (or if you'd prefer, give it til 2 weeks), then you could try to stop the ACV (and continue to leave out the Wellness) and see what happens.  If the problems start up again or get worse, then it may not (entirely) be the Wellness.

I think MC noticed an improvement in Mazy in about a week.  Though Mazy is still having hairballs, but she was less "urpy" and, if I remember right, wasn't throwing up her food as much.  She was also bringing the grass up in less time [3 days compared to 8].

I keep meaning to ask you, does Arrows get slippery elm?

grouphug
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 12:18:45 PM
I forgot to ask:  by dropper, do you mean an eye-dropper?  I keep thinking syringe and want to make sure.   :-[
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 21, 2014, 12:45:11 PM
The amounts are given in this article:

http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com/2013/02/apple-cider-is-good-for-your-dog-and.html

Quote
Dosage (human dosage provided at the bottom of the article):

Small Dogs (and cats) up to 14 lbs - 1 tsp;
Medium Dogs (and cats) 15 lbs to 34 lbs - 2 tsp;

Large Dogs:
35 lbs to 84 lbs - 1 tbs;
85 lbs to 134 lbs - 1.5 tbsp;
135 lbs to 200 lbs – 2 tbsp.

I made another post elsewhere so that this information could be easily found.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 01:09:45 PM
Thanks, Dee!   :-* :-* HeadButt HeadButt

Personally, I think I'd want to cut back on how much you give him in each meal, just to see how he does and because there is such a thing as being too acidic.  Maybe instead of 1/2 dropper, go to 1/4 dropper.  If you're not comfortable cutting the dose that much, maybe just reduce it to a bit less than 1/2 dropper and see how he handles that.  If he's ok, keep it at that dose for a couple of days and reduce it a bit more, etc.  It could be that getting it 3x/day is what helped him, and not so much the amount of the ACV, but I could be wrong.  Or it could be pulling the Wellness did the trick.

For the record, and I think you already know this, we're sort of in uncharted territory here.  I haven't found anything about using ACV to increase stomach acidity or improve digestion in cats (other than the article Dee posted, which is bit more general), which is what we're (hopefully) doing.  So I am going on what I've learned, what my gut (no pun intended) tells me, and what you report.  Every cat is different and input from everyone else is more than welcome, as I'm by no means an expert.

Dee commented in the other thread on ACV that she would split the dose listed in her post between the meals.  I would agree.

BTW, how many meals does he get each day, and how much food in each meal?  Finally (I hope), how much does he weigh?

P.S.  I just realized -- he's willingly eating food with 1/2 dropper of ACV in it?  Wow!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 01:48:48 PM
:(

Ok, brain fog is kicking in . . . no barf for 5 days using 1/2 dropper of ACV 3xday?  Then he started having daily hairballs?  Or did the hairballs and barfing stop after the ACV was increased to 3xday?  I'm a bit confused about the timeline of what happened when.

That does seem like a lot of ACV to me.  When did you cut out the Wellness?  If it's been about a week (or if you'd prefer, give it til 2 weeks), then you could try to stop the ACV (and continue to leave out the Wellness) and see what happens.  If the problems start up again or get worse, then it may not (entirely) be the Wellness.

I think MC noticed an improvement in Mazy in about a week.  Though Mazy is still having hairballs, but she was less "urpy" and, if I remember right, wasn't throwing up her food as much.  She was also bringing the grass up in less time [3 days compared to 8].

I keep meaning to ask you, does Arrows get slippery elm?

grouphug

No barf, hairballs, spit-up, etc. for the last 5 days, since upping the ACV and removing Wellness.
No slippery elm.  No anything else.

I just measured 3 of my dropper dosages.  Total is less than a teaspoon. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 01:50:00 PM
The amounts are given in this article:

http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com/2013/02/apple-cider-is-good-for-your-dog-and.html

I made another post elsewhere so that this information could be easily found.

Thanks Dee. 

The only reason this is in the private area... I get embarrassed being such a dork. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 02:12:37 PM
The only reason this is in the private area... I get embarrassed being such a dork. 

Please, do you know how many times I had to modify my last post because I kept thinking of something?  As Shrek says, "Join the club, we've got jackets."   Silly7

When you can, would you mind answering the following:

1.  How many meals does he get each day?
2.  How much food in each meal?
3.  How much does he weigh?

Thank you!   HeadButt

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 02:50:41 PM
Thanks, Dee!   :-* :-* HeadButt HeadButt

Personally, I think I'd want to cut back on how much you give him in each meal, just to see how he does and because there is such a thing as being too acidic.  Maybe instead of 1/2 dropper, go to 1/4 dropper.  If you're not comfortable cutting the dose that much, maybe just reduce it to a bit less than 1/2 dropper and see how he handles that.  If he's ok, keep it at that dose for a couple of days and reduce it a bit more, etc.  It could be that getting it 3x/day is what helped him, and not so much the amount of the ACV, but I could be wrong.  Or it could be pulling the Wellness did the trick.


At this point of our discussion... since we all now know that his total daily intake is less than a teaspoon... I'm thinking of continuing for a few weeks. Mostly because all seems to be well.  I don't want to change that, if it doesn't need to be changed.   
I also would like to exceed the time frame, where he went the longest with no barfing.  Since I didn't keep records before...I'm going with a round number of 2 weeks.  :)
JUST TO BE CLEAR... If new info, ideas, opinions, etc. come up... I am TOTALLY willing to change!  I don't want anyone to think when I say "I'm going to do ____," that it means my heels are dug in.  I'm just relaying what is on my mind.  Where my head is at.
Quote
For the record, and I think you already know this, we're sort of in uncharted territory here.  I haven't found anything about using ACV to increase stomach acidity or improve digestion in cats (other than the article Dee posted, which is bit more general), which is what we're (hopefully) doing.  So I am going on what I've learned, what my gut (no pun intended) tells me, and what you report.  Every cat is different and input from everyone else is more than welcome, as I'm by no means an expert.

I TOTALLY understand.   
Your smarts :) , your knowledge of cats, kibble causing damage sicknesses, Mazy's results, etc.  I've taken less "chances" at the vet. 

Not pet related, but...At work, I often want to know WHY something works a particular way.  I get made in fun of (a lot) for that thinking.  BUT knowing why... makes the info "stick."  More importantly, it is also often the reason I can fix something, or figure out a work around... when that something doesn't work.  I think this situation is a PERFECT example of that same thing.  Except, this time I can sit back and let YOU do the thinking FOR me.  :)

For the record, IF something horrible should go wrong... I know this is uncharted territory.
   
Quote
Dee commented in the other thread on ACV that she would split the dose listed in her post between the meals.  I would agree.

BTW, how many meals does he get each day, and how much food in each meal?  Finally (I hope), how much does he weigh?

P.S.  I just realized -- he's willingly eating food with 1/2 dropper of ACV in it?  Wow!

Arrows gets a half dropper 3x a day...in each meal.  Total daily ACV amount equals to a tiny bit less than a teaspoon. 
He eats approximately 6 oz, of food, a day.  He is VERY lean and active.  Long and skinny.  11.4 pounds

I would have been much more surprised, with Arrows willing to eat food with ACV, had Mazy not been a willing participant.  :)  I know the amounts differ drastically, but... it is still ACV!  ACK.  When I was measuring out the dropper amounts earlier... I drank the teaspoon of ACV.  I've since drank 8 oz of water... 2 cups of coffee... ate a bean burrito.  Stomach still ewie. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 21, 2014, 03:27:23 PM
When I was measuring out the dropper amounts earlier... I drank the teaspoon of ACV.  I've since drank 8 oz of water... 2 cups of coffee... ate a bean burrito.  Stomach still ewie. 


But the human amount to work up to is 2 tbs--3x a day before meals. A teaspoon never did any good for me. But I DID have to work up to those 2 tbs at a time. Mainly because I had to work up to gulping down that much water, but it took a bit of time for that much ACV to not take my breath away.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 03:53:41 PM
But the human amount to work up to is 2 tbs--3x a day before meals. A teaspoon never did any good for me. But I DID have to work up to those 2 tbs at a time. Mainly because I had to work up to gulping down that much water, but it took a bit of time for that much ACV to not take my breath away.

I was just mentioning the "effects" of the one little teaspoon.  Just being my dorky self.  :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on July 21, 2014, 03:59:49 PM
I was just mentioning the "effects" of the one little teaspoon.  Just being my dorky self.  :)

LOL. Okiedokie! But look at it this way. If you made a teaspoon down, you can build up to the rest!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 04:04:35 PM
I think my only concerns with the amount of ACV being given are:

1.  What effect (if any) it's having on his tooth enamel.  That's why I asked how much food he's getting at each meal.  If he's getting 3 meals/day totalling 6 oz, (2 oz/meal), is the food enough to "dilute" the ACV so that it doesn't do anything major to his teeth?  I can't picture how much 2 oz of cat food looks like right now, so I have to go with whatever you tell me.

2.  What effect (if any) it's having on his urinary pH.  If the urine gets too acidic, that might be an issue, which was MC's concern with Mazy.  I'm remembering (vaguely) what I read in Dr. Hodgkins' book about when kibble was made too acidic -- it created (I think) the magnesium crystals.  BUT . . . that was in cats fed kibble.  Arrows gets wet.  So I'm not sure if the increased acidity would be an issue or not.   :-\

Quote
Your smarts  , your knowledge of cats, kibble causing damage sicknesses, Mazy's results, etc.  I've taken less "chances" at the vet. 

 funny2   Thank you!  I appreciate and am humbled by your faith/trust in me.  I really REALLY hope it's deserved and I don't totally mess Arrows up with what I've been saying.

Quote
Not pet related, but...At work, I often want to know WHY something works a particular way.

I'm the same way.  I'm a Virgo "I analyze, therefore I am."  And I'm ok with that.  :)

P.S.  The only time I take ACV straight is on those rare occasions I have heartburn.  Other times, and it's not often, I'll drink it diluted.

P.S.S.  I'm glad he's been ok for 5 days and counting (knocking heavily on wood).  fingerscrossed  (side note:  pretty please, start keeping a record if you're not already?  It'll REALLY help.   HeadButt)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2014, 04:24:22 PM
This is how I solved the acidic on tooth enamel problem.  Well it was easy for Mazy because she eats such small meals to begin with.  Using the meal she just had as an example.  This is her Pre-supper meal, which consists of .4 (point 4) ounces of canned food.  the .4 is split into two .2 servings.  The first .2 has the ACV mixed in, the second ser4ving which she gets 5-10 minutes later, does not.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2014, 04:32:13 PM
PS remember that Wellness contains carrageenan, or at least it used to.  That can cause a lot of problems in a cat sensitive to it. Neither Mazy or Queen Eva could ever tolerate it (once I realized what the problem was) Mazy vomited, Queen Eva had diarrhea.  Jennie seemed to be "okay" with it but I finally decided to just eliminate it completely. Since I went completely carrageenan free for Jennie, she has stopped licking a bald spot on her abdomen.  It took almost a year for the licking to completely stop.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 07:11:54 PM
I think my only concerns with the amount of ACV being given are:

1.  What effect (if any) it's having on his tooth enamel.  That's why I asked how much food he's getting at each meal.  If he's getting 3 meals/day totalling 6 oz, (2 oz/meal), is the food enough to "dilute" the ACV so that it doesn't do anything major to his teeth?  I can't picture how much 2 oz of cat food looks like right now, so I have to go with whatever you tell me.

Would a tablespoon (for humans) being mixed with 8 oz of water, be somewhat comparable to 1/3 teaspoon mixed with 2 oz of food... for a cat?

Quote
2.  What effect (if any) it's having on his urinary pH.  If the urine gets too acidic, that might be an issue, which was MC's concern with Mazy.  I'm remembering (vaguely) what I read in Dr. Hodgkins' book about when kibble was made too acidic -- it created (I think) the magnesium crystals.  BUT . . . that was in cats fed kibble.  Arrows gets wet.  So I'm not sure if the increased acidity would be an issue or not.   :-\
I can't come up with anything there!  Wait... What if I took Arrows in and had his PH tested...  would that give you the answer? 

Quote
funny2   Thank you!  I appreciate and am humbled by your faith/trust in me.  I really REALLY hope it's deserved and I don't totally mess Arrows up with what I've been saying.

Pepcid is a "band-aid." I already KNOW, a certain amount, only works for so long, because of Roxy.  Then there is the long term affects.  Why NOT try something else? 
Quote

I'm the same way.  I'm a Virgo "I analyze, therefore I am."  And I'm ok with that.  :)
I could start a whole new thread about that!  lol

Quote
P.S.  The only time I take ACV straight is on those rare occasions I have heartburn.  Other times, and it's not often, I'll drink it diluted.
I was just jerking around today.  If it is good enough for my cat... kind of thinking... I could SURELY choke down a teaspoon.   Silly7

Quote
P.S.S.  I'm glad he's been ok for 5 days and counting (knocking heavily on wood).  fingerscrossed  (side note:  pretty please, start keeping a record if you're not already?  It'll REALLY help.   HeadButt)

Started with note taking July 1.  Notes were fairly generic, at first.  Getting more detailed, because I never know what I may HAVE to know. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 07:20:02 PM
This is how I solved the acidic on tooth enamel problem.  Well it was easy for Mazy because she eats such small meals to begin with.  Using the meal she just had as an example.  This is her Pre-supper meal, which consists of .4 (point 4) ounces of canned food.  the .4 is split into two .2 servings.  The first .2 has the ACV mixed in, the second ser4ving which she gets 5-10 minutes later, does not.

My brain can't even imagine .2 oz of food.  Is that two licks?  Is your dose of ACV, in .2 oz (with another .2 oz to follow) comparable to 1/3 teaspoon in 2 oz of food?  OR are you saying the problem is solved, due to the meal with no ACV?  Or... is my head completely stuck up my ____? 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2014, 07:37:18 PM
PS remember that Wellness contains carrageenan, or at least it used to.  That can cause a lot of problems in a cat sensitive to it. Neither Mazy or Queen Eva could ever tolerate it (once I realized what the problem was) Mazy vomited, Queen Eva had diarrhea.  Jennie seemed to be "okay" with it but I finally decided to just eliminate it completely. Since I went completely carrageenan free for Jennie, she has stopped licking a bald spot on her abdomen.  It took almost a year for the licking to completely stop.

It does still contain carrageenan.  :(  I've been trying to get it out of rotation (for good) for a very long time.  For several reasons.  That being the most recent one.  If Arrows is sensitive to Carrageenan... it just started.  Possibly, as cats age... more sensitive.  ??   


Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2014, 07:53:24 PM
Yes, as cats age they do tend to have more trouble with digestion.  And carrageenan damage may be a cumulative effect.  Mazy cat never gets more than .2 or .3 oz of food at a time. Ever. That's why she gets 12 meals a day. It's not as small as you might think.  I measured the ACV with the tiny spoon and a teaspoon.  She is getting about 1/2 teaspoon a day.

For the record I wasn't worried her urine would become too acidic.  Mazy cat's urine tends to be on the alkaline side so I was thinking the ACV would benefit her that way too.  Though I don't really trust the phinex strips, I tested her yesterday...a perfect 6.5. :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 09:37:24 PM
Quote
Would a tablespoon (for humans) being mixed with 8 oz of water, be somewhat comparable to 1/3 teaspoon mixed with 2 oz of food... for a cat?

Not a clue.   :-\  When I got home, I did look at the amount of food and also how much 1/2 a dropper is (mine I think was .5 ml or so), and it looks like the ACV would be fairly diluted if mixed in with that amount of food.  So maybe I'm just being overly cautious, esp. since that site Dee linked to didn't seem to have any issues with giving that amount.  At least, not that anyone posted.

Quote
I can't come up with anything there!  Wait... What if I took Arrows in and had his PH tested...  would that give you the answer? 

Could you train him to pee on a urine strip like MC did with Mazy?   :D  Seriously, I'm not sure how long the urine would be affected by the ACV before it would return to his normal pH.  I'll have to look at MC's thread again, as I remember when she tested right after a meal, the urine was more acidic, but I think it then went back to the usual pH after a while.  I hate to completely depend on that other site, but the author didn't mention anything and no one had any comments about it.  If I get a chance, maybe I'll post the question there.

Quote
Started with note taking July 1.  Notes were fairly generic, at first.  Getting more detailed, because I never know what I may HAVE to know.

Because I'm anal retentive ;D, I write down the time of the meal, what I fed and how much, and what supplements were in it (and how much).  I also write down where he horked and/or had a hairball (if I'm around when it happens, otherwise I just note that it was overnight or during the day), the size of his pee clumps and the number and size of his poops in the litter box.  It would be great if you could document Arrow's litterbox "results" but I imagine that's pretty hard to do with all the furkids you have.

Quote
My brain can't even imagine .2 oz of food.  Is that two licks?

 funny2
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2014, 09:38:48 PM
Yes, as cats age they do tend to have more trouble with digestion.  And carrageenan damage may be a cumulative effect. 

 :(  Reaaaaalllly wish I could get Mr. Picky, er, I mean Pookie, off of the Wellness.   :(

6.5?   thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on July 22, 2014, 12:23:09 AM
MC is SERIOUSLY talented.  I know FOR SURE that his pee clumps are a good size.  I actually saw him pee today... and checked it out.   

Roxy is our "Pookie."  Transitioning away from kibble was easier! 

Doesn't Dr. Pierson mention something about PH not being as "serious" as some may think... or only under certain circumstances?  She mentions SOMETHING.  I'll go look...

Edit: I half assed searched.  Will look harder ...later. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on August 08, 2014, 07:19:24 PM
Arrows' upcoming birthday reminded me, has it been 2 weeks on the ACV yet?  How's he doing?  fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 08, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Quote
MC is SERIOUSLY talented

Aw, pshaw!  :-[  It's just that Mazy cat and I have a special relationship regarding her litter box habits that dates back years.  Her trouble first started when she was not quite 2 years old. Paranoid momma that I am, I began watching her pee habits.  Mazy cat, being a very smart cat who loves routines, figured out very quickly that it was important to me to watch her pee.  She began telling me when she had to go, and it was only one step further for me to be sticking a tube (to collect a sample) or strip under her when she pees.  HeadButt

Quote
Seriously, I'm not sure how long the urine would be affected by the ACV before it would return to his normal pH.  I'll have to look at MC's thread again, as I remember when she tested right after a meal, the urine was more acidic,

Not right after.  About 4 hours after.

Quote
Doesn't Dr. Pierson mention something about PH not being as "serious" as some may think... or only under certain circumstances?  She mentions SOMETHING.  I'll go look...

She does.  I'm looking for it right now

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 08, 2014, 08:59:17 PM
There is so much, so much in that article worth sharing.  I have to go to bed now, but I will work on adding some excepts to this thread.

She does remind us that urine tends to be more alkaline after a large meal, so feeding smaller more frequent meals is better. And that, of course, higyh meat, low carb diet is the way to keep the pH at the proper acidity.

But her main focus is on vets who disregard all sense when it comes to testing and prescribing veterinary diets and antibiotics instead of trying more appropriate diet changes first.

No wonder that vet I quoted elsewhere took such exception to her pages when I asked him to read them.  He pushes those veterinary diets like crazy.  HE thinks it's okay to feed a corn based high carb diet as long as the proper vitamins and minerals are added artificially.  I cannot wrap my head around how ANY vet can believe such bosh.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 11, 2014, 01:47:43 PM
Arrows' upcoming birthday reminded me, has it been 2 weeks on the ACV yet?  How's he doing?  fingerscrossed

Wellllllll..... there has been a few (very few) small barf "piles," but only one can be pinned down to belonging to Arrows.  The only way I am going to know anything FOR SURE... is to lock each cat up separately, feed one food for x amount of weeks, etc. 
So many variables and so many cats...  I don't know what to do.  So I do nothing.    :-[

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 11, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Just to clarify.  A cat barfing is a HUGE concern to me.  However, having 6 cats... two "known" barfers... seeing barf once every 10 days-ish... while other changes are also going on...and circumstances not being the same every day....  and there is another person that helps feed and give meds and Braggs...

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on August 11, 2014, 03:59:56 PM
Just to clarify.  A cat barfing is a HUGE concern to me.  However, having 6 cats... two "known" barfers... seeing barf once every 10 days-ish... while other changes are also going on...and circumstances not being the same every day....  and there is another person that helps feed and give meds and Braggs...

Cat barfing is a big concern for me, too.  And I totally understand.  I don't know how you keep track with that many furkids around! 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 12, 2014, 06:57:05 PM
I just didn't want it to sound like I was blowing the situation off.  Just taking a break from trying to figure things out...with all the variables.  pullingouthair
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 12, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
How are you doing the vinegar Lola?  I eman, are you keeping a small amount in a separate container for ease of dosing?  I first tried a stainless steel water bottle (small one) but the vinegar seemed to take on a funny smell after awhile. Right now I've got some in one of the covered pyrex bowls I use for cat food but that's not really working out either.  I need a small glass jar with a tight fitting (screw on) lid. Somehting that I can shake the stuff up before using and get the little drop spoonlet into easily.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on August 12, 2014, 07:13:41 PM
  I need a small glass jar with a tight fitting (screw on) lid. Somehting that I can shake the stuff up before using and get the little drop spoonlet into easily.

Vinegar should never be kept in metal of any sort. Kind of like you have to have a crock of some sort to make sour kraut in--metal will start breaking down and rusting. Have you tried a baby-food jar? You could always buy some kind of baby food meat and give it to the babies.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 12, 2014, 07:27:09 PM
Thanks Dee I didn't know that about vinegar and stainless steel.  I keep my own vinegar concontion in a stainless steel bottle but it only lasts 4 or 5 days at a time, and it's a better quality bottle than the one I am no longer using for the cat portions.

 I thought of baby food jars, but the lids don't fit tight after they've been opened.  I need the jar to be leak proof so I can shake it up each time before i use it.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on August 12, 2014, 07:32:24 PM
How about a larger jar like Green Giant mushrooms come in? Then you could just "tornado" it instead of shaking up and down to mix it?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on August 12, 2014, 07:38:53 PM
I went back and checked, and it says never any metal of any sort:

Quote
Because vinegar is so acidic, using glass utensils is best. Never use aluminum or copper utensils when working with vinegar, and never store vinegar in any type of metal container. Vinegar can dissolve metal, and you might consume some of the metal with the vinegar.

http://www.moaa.org/main_secondary.aspx?id=9642
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 12, 2014, 07:40:57 PM
How are you doing the vinegar Lola?  I eman, are you keeping a small amount in a separate container for ease of dosing?  I first tried a stainless steel water bottle (small one) but the vinegar seemed to take on a funny smell after awhile. Right now I've got some in one of the covered pyrex bowls I use for cat food but that's not really working out either.  I need a small glass jar with a tight fitting (screw on) lid. Somehting that I can shake the stuff up before using and get the little drop spoonlet into easily.

I just tip the bottle.  With less than a teaspoon a day (I lowered the amount), the bottle is still pretty full. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 12, 2014, 07:47:01 PM
How about a larger jar like Green Giant mushrooms come in? Then you could just "tornado" it instead of shaking up and down to mix it?

Mushrooms! Gag!  LOL! Actually, going by your idea, I suppose I could use a peanut butter jar.  The lid is still metal, but keeping the amount small and swirling instead of shaking should work....

I went back and checked, and it says never any metal of any sort:

http://www.moaa.org/main_secondary.aspx?id=9642

Okay.  thanks.

The measuring spoon is metal, but the vinegar is only in it for a second. Maybe I better find a glass dropper.  I refuse to use plastic.

I just tip the bottle.  With less than a teaspoon a day (I lowered the amount), the bottle is still pretty full. 

Out of a quart size bottle?  I can not tip that tiny of an amount out of a quart size bottle.  Even out of a smaller bottle, I don't think I could. I need to dip the spoon in.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on August 12, 2014, 08:10:03 PM


The measuring spoon is metal, but the vinegar is only in it for a second. Maybe I better find a glass dropper.  I refuse to use plastic.


Well if I still had access to glass tubing and a Bunsen burner, I'd make you a perfect one and send it to you. But I don't so I can't. Maybe you could find some brand of baby vitamins that still uses glass droppers?

Or maybe you could find some of these in an aromatherapy store (since essential oils need glass too)?  http://www.premiumvials.com/glass-bottles/clear-boston-round/4-oz-boston-round/4-oz-clear-boston-round-glass-bottle-w-dropper.html
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 12, 2014, 08:11:54 PM
Quote
I can not tip that tiny of an amount out of a quart size bottle.  Even out of a smaller bottle, I don't think I could. I need to dip the spoon in.

I use a glass dropper.  I put the tip in.. suck up the vinegar...done. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on August 13, 2014, 08:33:23 AM
Or maybe you could find some of these in an aromatherapy store (since essential oils need glass too)?  http://www.premiumvials.com/glass-bottles/clear-boston-round/4-oz-boston-round/4-oz-clear-boston-round-glass-bottle-w-dropper.html

Actually, Dee has a really good idea.  If there's a health food store near you, they may carry the Bach's flower remedies.  Those are glass and include glass droppers.  Another idea -- an empty vanilla (or other kind) extract bottle.  It wouldn't have the dropper, though.  Both of these would be difficult to get the vinegar into, unless you use a turkey baster or something.

I've also seen very small Mason jars in my hardware store.  Walmart and some supermarkets may also carry them.  Just tossing ideas out there.   :)

P.S.  For the record, I don't think Walmart sucks.  I'm not sure how that got in there.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 13, 2014, 12:38:19 PM
The Walmart sucks is built in.   funny2

Thanks for the ideas you guys. Last time I bought vanilla it was in a plastic bottle. :(
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 13, 2014, 08:36:31 PM
MC,
Next time you are at the grocery store, scan the aisle(s) that have salsa and/or ready made sauces.  Some of those items come in short glass containers with lids that screw on. 

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 19, 2014, 05:02:12 AM
The glass peanut butter jar is working!  I cut a circle of waxed paper to fit inside the lid to keep any drops of vinegar from the metal. I'm still using the stainless steel drop spoon though, but the vinegar is only in it for a second and I was it after every use.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 20, 2014, 01:55:50 PM
I bought my glass dropper, from a display that was near the pharmacy, at my local grocery store.  If you are interested.  :) 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 20, 2014, 03:56:39 PM
I actually do have one, as it turns out.  But the little spoon is so much easier. Easier to control the amount, easier to store, easier to wash.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on August 25, 2014, 06:25:48 PM
No spit ups of any kind, from anyone, since the 11th.  That one was probably due to me reducing (too much) the amount of Pepcid (for Roxy) and/or the Braggs Organic Vinegar (Arrows).    The location of the barf would have given me a decent guess as to who it belonged to.  However, the notes just say "barf." 

Roxy was getting 3/4 of Pepcid and Arrows was getting 3 drops (total = teaspoon) of Braggs... spread out over 3 meals.  I cut them both down to once a day, and that is when the above barf happened.

After the barf... I didn't go back to their normal amounts.  I just put one of their "servings" back in.  Meaning... Arrows was getting one drop of Braggs twice a day, and Roxy was getting 1/4 of Pepcid twice a day.   In a perfect world, I would like it if neither needed Pepcid or Braggs... if you are wondering.  :)

Since feeding the ground raw... I took a chance and changed Roxy's Pepcid amount down to 1/4 only.  Arrows is still getting one drop - twice a day of Braggs.  I'm kinda just leaving him alone for now...staying with what I know works... thinking Braggs isn't the "evil" that Pepcid is. 

No spit ups, barf, regurgitating...nothing.   :D

BTW Roxy didn't start out taking 3/4 of Pepcid a day.  It was increased, when the amount (at the time) stopped working.  My vet (and the other) said it was totally safe.  I'm just repeating what I was told.   ;D  My point is... since feeding raw, she is doing fine taking "just" a 1/4 of Pepcid.  I don't think that amount EVER stopped the barfing.  If it did, it was for a very short period of time.   

Sooooo is the raw helping her, or the Vet's Best...or both?  She did eat a sample of raw today, without Vets Best.  She may just be ready to go cold turkey... and then I will have my answer.   :)

Just to be clear... I don't have a problem giving either cat something that helps them.  BUT if eating better food is the "cure," I want to know.  I want to take that route instead. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on August 26, 2014, 08:43:31 AM
That is all AWESOME news!

I remember when MC added the ACV to Mazy cat's raw food, that was the one time Mazy wasn't thrilled with the addition and MC had to add the topper to get her to eat it.  And I wondered if Mazy's reaction was that she didn't need the extra acid for the raw, but she did need it for the canned (since she ate that right up with the ACV).

Stomach acid digests (meat) protein.  Since the raw is a better/purer form of protein (compared to canned), and based on what you've described as well as Mazy's reaction to the ACV in raw, I tend to think that the raw triggers more stomach acid than the canned, and therefore the ACV may not be needed for those meals.  If that's true, then my gut (no pun intended) tells me that the pepcid wouldn't be needed (or not as much), and the raw will help their tummies to produce enough acid so neither supplement is needed.  And remember, the goal with the ACV is to "train" the stomach to produce enough acid over time, so that eventually the ACV is no longer needed.

Mind you, I'm winging this, but that's my hunch.  So to sum up:  I think the raw IS helping their digestion significantly.  Maybe, over time, they won't need the pepcid/ACV at all.  fingerscrossed  One day at a time . . .

Great job, Lola!  multistars multistars multistars
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on August 26, 2014, 04:14:53 PM
Thanks for the update Lola, and great post Pookie! No time for more just now but didn't want to read and run
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on September 02, 2014, 01:52:16 PM
I KNEW I shouldn't have posted an update.  Arrows barfed on the 31.  :(  20 days of no barfing.  Not good, but still a HUGE improvement. 
It seemed like he wanted to show me he was going to barf.  He is a tile barfer, so he could do it anywhere... but he ran into the room that I was in, and then did it.  Maybe I just read too many of MC's posts...  :)

I'm thinking of trying to feed him raw only.... no canned.  He LOVES raw.  I just hate to feed him from one source only.  But ... it is GOOD food from Hare Today.   :-\
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on September 02, 2014, 04:16:27 PM
I don't know what that is Lola, I find the same thing, if I kind of lose track and look back to count how long it's been since she hurled, it seems like a guarantee that she will hurl the next day.

As for Arrows wanting to let you know, I don't doubt it for a minute. The more focus a cat gets from you, the more they are going to know what you want.  He's figured out that you want to know about his puking habits. 

Still though, 20 days is HUGE!  But if you're like me, I understand that feeling of disappointment.  Such a helpless feeling, even though we are doing as much as we can, and there IS improvement.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on September 02, 2014, 04:38:58 PM
I don't know what that is Lola, I find the same thing, if I kind of lose track and look back to count how long it's been since she hurled, it seems like a guarantee that she will hurl the next day.

Yeah, that happens with Pookie, too.  It'll suddenly pop in my head, "when was the last time he horked" and I'll check the log, and usually within 24 hours, up it comes.   :(  *sigh*
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on September 02, 2014, 07:00:08 PM
Hmmm....I think that what this means then is that we are so in tune with them, we know when it's coming. And sure enough it does.  Not because we thought about it.  But..we thought about it because we know out cats...and we, subconscious, or subliminally, something, must be seeing a sign that indicates it's that time again.  Even if we don't KNOW we are seeing it.  We are seeing it.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on September 03, 2014, 12:27:14 PM
I tend to lean towards believing (from experiences with other cats) they are showing us they have a problem... so we will help them.  Breaks my heart.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on September 29, 2014, 05:47:18 PM
Arrows has kept everything down, since whenever the last time he didn't.  I refuse to look for the actual date.   Silly7 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on October 18, 2014, 07:35:25 PM
He is still eating canned and raw.  I had thought of feeding him raw only. 
He does best when given ACV in all 3 meals.  Although I have lowered the amount of his dose(s).  He is being given a total of just a pinch over 1/2 teaspoon...spread over 3 meals. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on October 19, 2014, 11:07:01 AM
He is still eating canned and raw.  I had thought of feeding him raw only. 
He does best when given ACV in all 3 meals.  Although I have lowered the amount of his dose(s).  He is being given a total of just a pinch over 1/2 teaspoon...spread over 3 meals. 

 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on October 24, 2014, 05:55:37 AM
No regurgitation?  Wonderful!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on October 24, 2014, 09:03:49 AM
Arrows is doing really good.  Such a relief!!!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on October 25, 2014, 08:42:12 AM
Arrows is doing really good.  Such a relief!!!

Knock on wood!   :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on October 28, 2014, 09:11:24 AM
Knock on wood!   :)

No kidding!  lol
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on November 26, 2014, 04:50:02 PM
This week we stopped giving Arrows ACV.  We are feeding him a raw only diet.  So far, so good....
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on November 26, 2014, 09:24:04 PM
This week we stopped giving Arrows ACV.  We are feeding him a raw only diet.  So far, so good....

fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed

Just out of curiosity, did the ACV make any difference for him, either way?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on December 01, 2014, 11:54:16 AM
fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed

Just out of curiosity, did the ACV make any difference for him, either way?

For the most part (until someone asked me how he was doing...lol), he stopped barfing when given ACV. 
I THINK you said that it should heal the tummy issues.  It seemed to, so I stopped giving it recently.  He is doing great.  (knock on wood)


Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on December 04, 2014, 04:57:39 AM
bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on December 04, 2014, 09:15:39 AM
I THINK you said that it should heal the tummy issues.  It seemed to, so I stopped giving it recently.  He is doing great.  (knock on wood)


Whew!   :)

The ACV was to provide additional stomach acid to help him digest his food, and over time(hopefully) "retrain" his tummy to produce more acid so that eventually the ACV would no longer be needed.

I'm so glad that (knock wood) he's doing well!  multistars multistars multistars
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on December 04, 2014, 10:04:50 AM
Whew!   :)

The ACV was to provide additional stomach acid to help him digest his food, and over time(hopefully) "retrain" his tummy to produce more acid so that eventually the ACV would no longer be needed.

I'm so glad that (knock wood) he's doing well!  multistars multistars multistars

That's what I meant.  ;)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on January 15, 2015, 12:34:49 PM
Any updates?   :)  fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on January 15, 2015, 04:28:22 PM
Any updates?   :)  fingerscrossed

Actually no.  That is a good thing.  :)  He is doing great!!! 

Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on January 21, 2015, 05:33:49 AM
That IS a good thing! bananamiddlechild
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on January 21, 2015, 02:45:11 PM
No ACV and no barfing.  Could it be... the ACV did re-train his tummy? 

10 years seems to be the "magic" age, when the previous kibble feeding days catch up.  If so, it is possible (unfortunately) that I will have a few more test candidates eventually.   
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on January 21, 2015, 03:03:26 PM
No ACV and no barfing.  Could it be... the ACV did re-train his tummy? 

I don't know.  I'm not sure anyone's ever tried to do this before.  My assUmption was that he'd let you know when he didn't need it anymore, either by not eating the food with the ACV in it, or by horking it  :o.  I guess the only real way to be sure was to stop adding it and see what happened.  How long was he kibble-fed and how long did you give the ACV?

I'm glad to hear that (knock wood) he's doing well!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on January 21, 2015, 03:12:10 PM
I don't know.  I'm not sure anyone's ever tried to do this before.  My assUmption was that he'd let you know when he didn't need it anymore, either by not eating the food with the ACV in it, or by horking it  :o.  I guess the only real way to be sure was to stop adding it and see what happened.  How long was he kibble-fed and how long did you give the ACV?

I'm glad to hear that (knock wood) he's doing well!

I don't have my notes with me, so I can't give you an exact time frame.  Few months?  I just stopped one day.  There were some occasional barfs, after it was stopped... when someone asked me how he was doing.  lol  Seriously, they were few and far between. 

He was kibble fed for his first 5 years of life.  When he joined our family, he was transitioned to wet. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on January 21, 2015, 03:16:29 PM
Roxy would be a good test candidate.  She went through so much last year, I hate to put her through a test right now.  The only way to test her would be to stop giving her the Prilosec.  I would LOVE for her not to have to take it, but...
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on January 22, 2015, 12:29:17 PM
GoodVibes

Ok, say it with me: "We do the best we can . . . "   :D

She had a rough few months with the chin rash, etc.  It might be best to just give her some time before trying something new.  Go with your gut.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on January 22, 2015, 08:51:23 PM
The two people in the IBD group who have tried the ACV also report improvement.  With Mazy cat, that makes five.  Mazy still struggles though.  I think Mazy is always going to struggle.  I try to prepare myself to where this will lead.  I won't put her through a lot of testing or treatments. I am thrilled about Arrows!
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on January 23, 2015, 12:44:03 PM
The two people in the IBD group who have tried the ACV also report improvement.  With Mazy cat, that makes five.  Mazy still struggles though.  I think Mazy is always going to struggle.  I try to prepare myself to where this will lead.  I won't put her through a lot of testing or treatments. I am thrilled about Arrows!

I think every cat is different, and maybe it will just take more time for Mazy (and Pookie).  I also wonder if nutritional deficiencies (from being on kibble) somehow factor in; maybe some cats are more susceptible than others?   :-\  Anyway, "we do the best we can . . ." and you're an AWESOME mom!

(Side note:  I didn't realize you'd shared the ACV tip with others and some have tried it.  And it helped some?  multistars)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: DeeDee on January 23, 2015, 12:56:30 PM

(Side note:  I didn't realize you'd shared the ACV tip with others and some have tried it.  And it helped some?  multistars)

I'd be as happy as you if I could get more people (insert ESPECIALLY family) to just hold their breath and try it instead of taking those calcium destroying drugs! If they'd only act like pets and accept what their body needs, a lot of people would be a lot healthier.
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on January 23, 2015, 03:24:13 PM
I'd be as happy as you if I could get more people (insert ESPECIALLY family) to just hold their breath and try it instead of taking those calcium destroying drugs! If they'd only act like pets and accept what their body needs, a lot of people would be a lot healthier.

I hear ya, Dee.

Lola, does Arrows get all raw now or does he also get some canned?
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Middle Child on January 23, 2015, 03:44:40 PM
I think every cat is different, and maybe it will just take more time for Mazy (and Pookie).  I also wonder if nutritional deficiencies (from being on kibble) somehow factor in; maybe some cats are more susceptible than others?   :-\  Anyway, "we do the best we can . . ." and you're an AWESOME mom!

(Side note:  I didn't realize you'd shared the ACV tip with others and some have tried it.  And it helped some?  multistars)

Yes I mentioned it a couple of times in the IBD group and someone asked for further explanation, and now two are using it, and happy with the results.  I gave you credit, linking to this forum. :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on January 23, 2015, 09:36:52 PM
Yes I mentioned it a couple of times in the IBD group and someone asked for further explanation, and now two are using it, and happy with the results.  I gave you credit, linking to this forum. :)

heartbeatgif  Thanks, MC!!!  heartbeatgif
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on January 28, 2015, 08:22:43 PM
GoodVibes

Ok, say it with me: "We do the best we can . . . "   :D

She had a rough few months with the chin rash, etc.  It might be best to just give her some time before trying something new.  Go with your gut.

Thanks Pookie. 
I just felt an explanation was necessary as to why I wasn't "interested" in doing anything different with her right now. 

As far as Arrows... when I stopped the ACV, I fed him raw only for a while.  Currently he eats what everyone eats... a mixture of raw and canned.  However, we are moving towards more raw and a LOT less canned. 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on March 25, 2017, 11:14:54 AM
I'm hoping to get Arrows in for a vet visit next week.  Waiting for a call back about an appointment day and time.

Since he hasn't been to the new vet, I made copies of his records. 
I was reading over some of the paperwork and saw that the old vet had me giving him Pepcid for barfing.  Thinking to myself...Arrows was a barfer?!   It must have been bad, for me to take him to the vet for it. 

I decided to do a search here to find details...jog the 'ol memory.  Found this thread.  :)

I'm happy to report that Arrows does not take Pepcid.  He has been a non-barfer since January 2015.  He is an ACV success story.  :) 
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Lola on March 25, 2017, 11:41:12 AM
PS
Reading through ALL the posts... Roxy isn't given Pepcid anymore either.  Her only barf episodes are if there is more then 8 hours between meals.  She used to bring up bile like clock work, if she went unfed for more then 8 hours.  That is no longer a given either.  :)
Title: Re: Arrows & ACV
Post by: Pookie on March 25, 2017, 10:42:56 PM
Wow, I forgot about this thread.  It's been a while.

I'm happy to report that Arrows does not take Pepcid.  He has been a non-barfer since January 2015.  He is an ACV success story.  :) 

That's wonderful!  Thank you so much for sharing!

PS
Reading through ALL the posts... Roxy isn't given Pepcid anymore either.  Her only barf episodes are if there is more then 8 hours between meals.  She used to bring up bile like clock work, if she went unfed for more then 8 hours.  That is no longer a given either.  :)

multistars multistars multistars

I LOVE hearing about furkids getting off the acid-blockers.  multistars

Are you looking to schedule Arrows for a check-up?