Author Topic: Arrows & ACV  (Read 34910 times)

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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2014, 02:50:41 PM »
Thanks, Dee!   :-* :-* HeadButt HeadButt

Personally, I think I'd want to cut back on how much you give him in each meal, just to see how he does and because there is such a thing as being too acidic.  Maybe instead of 1/2 dropper, go to 1/4 dropper.  If you're not comfortable cutting the dose that much, maybe just reduce it to a bit less than 1/2 dropper and see how he handles that.  If he's ok, keep it at that dose for a couple of days and reduce it a bit more, etc.  It could be that getting it 3x/day is what helped him, and not so much the amount of the ACV, but I could be wrong.  Or it could be pulling the Wellness did the trick.


At this point of our discussion... since we all now know that his total daily intake is less than a teaspoon... I'm thinking of continuing for a few weeks. Mostly because all seems to be well.  I don't want to change that, if it doesn't need to be changed.   
I also would like to exceed the time frame, where he went the longest with no barfing.  Since I didn't keep records before...I'm going with a round number of 2 weeks.  :)
JUST TO BE CLEAR... If new info, ideas, opinions, etc. come up... I am TOTALLY willing to change!  I don't want anyone to think when I say "I'm going to do ____," that it means my heels are dug in.  I'm just relaying what is on my mind.  Where my head is at.
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For the record, and I think you already know this, we're sort of in uncharted territory here.  I haven't found anything about using ACV to increase stomach acidity or improve digestion in cats (other than the article Dee posted, which is bit more general), which is what we're (hopefully) doing.  So I am going on what I've learned, what my gut (no pun intended) tells me, and what you report.  Every cat is different and input from everyone else is more than welcome, as I'm by no means an expert.

I TOTALLY understand.   
Your smarts :) , your knowledge of cats, kibble causing damage sicknesses, Mazy's results, etc.  I've taken less "chances" at the vet. 

Not pet related, but...At work, I often want to know WHY something works a particular way.  I get made in fun of (a lot) for that thinking.  BUT knowing why... makes the info "stick."  More importantly, it is also often the reason I can fix something, or figure out a work around... when that something doesn't work.  I think this situation is a PERFECT example of that same thing.  Except, this time I can sit back and let YOU do the thinking FOR me.  :)

For the record, IF something horrible should go wrong... I know this is uncharted territory.
   
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Dee commented in the other thread on ACV that she would split the dose listed in her post between the meals.  I would agree.

BTW, how many meals does he get each day, and how much food in each meal?  Finally (I hope), how much does he weigh?

P.S.  I just realized -- he's willingly eating food with 1/2 dropper of ACV in it?  Wow!

Arrows gets a half dropper 3x a day...in each meal.  Total daily ACV amount equals to a tiny bit less than a teaspoon. 
He eats approximately 6 oz, of food, a day.  He is VERY lean and active.  Long and skinny.  11.4 pounds

I would have been much more surprised, with Arrows willing to eat food with ACV, had Mazy not been a willing participant.  :)  I know the amounts differ drastically, but... it is still ACV!  ACK.  When I was measuring out the dropper amounts earlier... I drank the teaspoon of ACV.  I've since drank 8 oz of water... 2 cups of coffee... ate a bean burrito.  Stomach still ewie. 
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2014, 03:27:23 PM »
When I was measuring out the dropper amounts earlier... I drank the teaspoon of ACV.  I've since drank 8 oz of water... 2 cups of coffee... ate a bean burrito.  Stomach still ewie. 


But the human amount to work up to is 2 tbs--3x a day before meals. A teaspoon never did any good for me. But I DID have to work up to those 2 tbs at a time. Mainly because I had to work up to gulping down that much water, but it took a bit of time for that much ACV to not take my breath away.
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2014, 03:53:41 PM »
But the human amount to work up to is 2 tbs--3x a day before meals. A teaspoon never did any good for me. But I DID have to work up to those 2 tbs at a time. Mainly because I had to work up to gulping down that much water, but it took a bit of time for that much ACV to not take my breath away.

I was just mentioning the "effects" of the one little teaspoon.  Just being my dorky self.  :)
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2014, 03:59:49 PM »
I was just mentioning the "effects" of the one little teaspoon.  Just being my dorky self.  :)

LOL. Okiedokie! But look at it this way. If you made a teaspoon down, you can build up to the rest!
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2014, 04:04:35 PM »
I think my only concerns with the amount of ACV being given are:

1.  What effect (if any) it's having on his tooth enamel.  That's why I asked how much food he's getting at each meal.  If he's getting 3 meals/day totalling 6 oz, (2 oz/meal), is the food enough to "dilute" the ACV so that it doesn't do anything major to his teeth?  I can't picture how much 2 oz of cat food looks like right now, so I have to go with whatever you tell me.

2.  What effect (if any) it's having on his urinary pH.  If the urine gets too acidic, that might be an issue, which was MC's concern with Mazy.  I'm remembering (vaguely) what I read in Dr. Hodgkins' book about when kibble was made too acidic -- it created (I think) the magnesium crystals.  BUT . . . that was in cats fed kibble.  Arrows gets wet.  So I'm not sure if the increased acidity would be an issue or not.   :-\

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Your smarts  , your knowledge of cats, kibble causing damage sicknesses, Mazy's results, etc.  I've taken less "chances" at the vet. 

 funny2   Thank you!  I appreciate and am humbled by your faith/trust in me.  I really REALLY hope it's deserved and I don't totally mess Arrows up with what I've been saying.

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Not pet related, but...At work, I often want to know WHY something works a particular way.

I'm the same way.  I'm a Virgo "I analyze, therefore I am."  And I'm ok with that.  :)

P.S.  The only time I take ACV straight is on those rare occasions I have heartburn.  Other times, and it's not often, I'll drink it diluted.

P.S.S.  I'm glad he's been ok for 5 days and counting (knocking heavily on wood).  fingerscrossed  (side note:  pretty please, start keeping a record if you're not already?  It'll REALLY help.   HeadButt)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 04:18:28 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #95 on: July 21, 2014, 04:24:22 PM »
This is how I solved the acidic on tooth enamel problem.  Well it was easy for Mazy because she eats such small meals to begin with.  Using the meal she just had as an example.  This is her Pre-supper meal, which consists of .4 (point 4) ounces of canned food.  the .4 is split into two .2 servings.  The first .2 has the ACV mixed in, the second ser4ving which she gets 5-10 minutes later, does not.

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #96 on: July 21, 2014, 04:32:13 PM »
PS remember that Wellness contains carrageenan, or at least it used to.  That can cause a lot of problems in a cat sensitive to it. Neither Mazy or Queen Eva could ever tolerate it (once I realized what the problem was) Mazy vomited, Queen Eva had diarrhea.  Jennie seemed to be "okay" with it but I finally decided to just eliminate it completely. Since I went completely carrageenan free for Jennie, she has stopped licking a bald spot on her abdomen.  It took almost a year for the licking to completely stop.

Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #97 on: July 21, 2014, 07:11:54 PM »
I think my only concerns with the amount of ACV being given are:

1.  What effect (if any) it's having on his tooth enamel.  That's why I asked how much food he's getting at each meal.  If he's getting 3 meals/day totalling 6 oz, (2 oz/meal), is the food enough to "dilute" the ACV so that it doesn't do anything major to his teeth?  I can't picture how much 2 oz of cat food looks like right now, so I have to go with whatever you tell me.

Would a tablespoon (for humans) being mixed with 8 oz of water, be somewhat comparable to 1/3 teaspoon mixed with 2 oz of food... for a cat?

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2.  What effect (if any) it's having on his urinary pH.  If the urine gets too acidic, that might be an issue, which was MC's concern with Mazy.  I'm remembering (vaguely) what I read in Dr. Hodgkins' book about when kibble was made too acidic -- it created (I think) the magnesium crystals.  BUT . . . that was in cats fed kibble.  Arrows gets wet.  So I'm not sure if the increased acidity would be an issue or not.   :-\
I can't come up with anything there!  Wait... What if I took Arrows in and had his PH tested...  would that give you the answer? 

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funny2   Thank you!  I appreciate and am humbled by your faith/trust in me.  I really REALLY hope it's deserved and I don't totally mess Arrows up with what I've been saying.

Pepcid is a "band-aid." I already KNOW, a certain amount, only works for so long, because of Roxy.  Then there is the long term affects.  Why NOT try something else? 
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I'm the same way.  I'm a Virgo "I analyze, therefore I am."  And I'm ok with that.  :)
I could start a whole new thread about that!  lol

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P.S.  The only time I take ACV straight is on those rare occasions I have heartburn.  Other times, and it's not often, I'll drink it diluted.
I was just jerking around today.  If it is good enough for my cat... kind of thinking... I could SURELY choke down a teaspoon.   Silly7

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P.S.S.  I'm glad he's been ok for 5 days and counting (knocking heavily on wood).  fingerscrossed  (side note:  pretty please, start keeping a record if you're not already?  It'll REALLY help.   HeadButt)

Started with note taking July 1.  Notes were fairly generic, at first.  Getting more detailed, because I never know what I may HAVE to know. 
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2014, 07:20:02 PM »
This is how I solved the acidic on tooth enamel problem.  Well it was easy for Mazy because she eats such small meals to begin with.  Using the meal she just had as an example.  This is her Pre-supper meal, which consists of .4 (point 4) ounces of canned food.  the .4 is split into two .2 servings.  The first .2 has the ACV mixed in, the second ser4ving which she gets 5-10 minutes later, does not.

My brain can't even imagine .2 oz of food.  Is that two licks?  Is your dose of ACV, in .2 oz (with another .2 oz to follow) comparable to 1/3 teaspoon in 2 oz of food?  OR are you saying the problem is solved, due to the meal with no ACV?  Or... is my head completely stuck up my ____? 
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #99 on: July 21, 2014, 07:37:18 PM »
PS remember that Wellness contains carrageenan, or at least it used to.  That can cause a lot of problems in a cat sensitive to it. Neither Mazy or Queen Eva could ever tolerate it (once I realized what the problem was) Mazy vomited, Queen Eva had diarrhea.  Jennie seemed to be "okay" with it but I finally decided to just eliminate it completely. Since I went completely carrageenan free for Jennie, she has stopped licking a bald spot on her abdomen.  It took almost a year for the licking to completely stop.

It does still contain carrageenan.  :(  I've been trying to get it out of rotation (for good) for a very long time.  For several reasons.  That being the most recent one.  If Arrows is sensitive to Carrageenan... it just started.  Possibly, as cats age... more sensitive.  ??   


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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #100 on: July 21, 2014, 07:53:24 PM »
Yes, as cats age they do tend to have more trouble with digestion.  And carrageenan damage may be a cumulative effect.  Mazy cat never gets more than .2 or .3 oz of food at a time. Ever. That's why she gets 12 meals a day. It's not as small as you might think.  I measured the ACV with the tiny spoon and a teaspoon.  She is getting about 1/2 teaspoon a day.

For the record I wasn't worried her urine would become too acidic.  Mazy cat's urine tends to be on the alkaline side so I was thinking the ACV would benefit her that way too.  Though I don't really trust the phinex strips, I tested her yesterday...a perfect 6.5. :)

Offline Pookie

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #101 on: July 21, 2014, 09:37:24 PM »
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Would a tablespoon (for humans) being mixed with 8 oz of water, be somewhat comparable to 1/3 teaspoon mixed with 2 oz of food... for a cat?

Not a clue.   :-\  When I got home, I did look at the amount of food and also how much 1/2 a dropper is (mine I think was .5 ml or so), and it looks like the ACV would be fairly diluted if mixed in with that amount of food.  So maybe I'm just being overly cautious, esp. since that site Dee linked to didn't seem to have any issues with giving that amount.  At least, not that anyone posted.

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I can't come up with anything there!  Wait... What if I took Arrows in and had his PH tested...  would that give you the answer? 

Could you train him to pee on a urine strip like MC did with Mazy?   :D  Seriously, I'm not sure how long the urine would be affected by the ACV before it would return to his normal pH.  I'll have to look at MC's thread again, as I remember when she tested right after a meal, the urine was more acidic, but I think it then went back to the usual pH after a while.  I hate to completely depend on that other site, but the author didn't mention anything and no one had any comments about it.  If I get a chance, maybe I'll post the question there.

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Started with note taking July 1.  Notes were fairly generic, at first.  Getting more detailed, because I never know what I may HAVE to know.

Because I'm anal retentive ;D, I write down the time of the meal, what I fed and how much, and what supplements were in it (and how much).  I also write down where he horked and/or had a hairball (if I'm around when it happens, otherwise I just note that it was overnight or during the day), the size of his pee clumps and the number and size of his poops in the litter box.  It would be great if you could document Arrow's litterbox "results" but I imagine that's pretty hard to do with all the furkids you have.

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My brain can't even imagine .2 oz of food.  Is that two licks?

 funny2
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #102 on: July 21, 2014, 09:38:48 PM »
Yes, as cats age they do tend to have more trouble with digestion.  And carrageenan damage may be a cumulative effect. 

 :(  Reaaaaalllly wish I could get Mr. Picky, er, I mean Pookie, off of the Wellness.   :(

6.5?   thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 09:40:23 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Lola

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2014, 12:23:09 AM »
MC is SERIOUSLY talented.  I know FOR SURE that his pee clumps are a good size.  I actually saw him pee today... and checked it out.   

Roxy is our "Pookie."  Transitioning away from kibble was easier! 

Doesn't Dr. Pierson mention something about PH not being as "serious" as some may think... or only under certain circumstances?  She mentions SOMETHING.  I'll go look...

Edit: I half assed searched.  Will look harder ...later. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 12:38:27 AM by Lola »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Arrows & ACV
« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2014, 07:19:24 PM »
Arrows' upcoming birthday reminded me, has it been 2 weeks on the ACV yet?  How's he doing?  fingerscrossed
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