Author Topic: Mazy has declined supper  (Read 16891 times)

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2015, 10:12:56 PM »
Thank you Dee.

I've just been reading about pancreatic insufficiency.  More tests that aren't on the standard superchem, but this article is too technical for me to understand.  Someone is helping me decipher it, and I did ask my vet about the B level tests today.

But again - these are expensive tests, so it's better to rule out the simpler things first.

I welcome anyone's thoughts or explanations of this article

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/exocrine-pancreatic-insufficiency-cats-more-common-veterinarians-think

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2015, 10:36:00 PM »
Basically, the effect of pancreatic insufficiency is that food isn't digested properly, so you end up with malnutrition in the end--because you don't have the proper pancreatic enzymes to break down the food the way it needs to be for all the nutrients to be absorbed.

Vlad now gets extra digestive enzymes (other than his Vetriscience Canine Plus chews) b/c he had pancreatitis and seems to continue to exhibit occasional symptoms. He doesn't get a meal without digestive enzymes of some sort or another. I just give him these http://www.vitacost.com/carlson-natural-digestive-enzymes-digestive-aid-no-34-250-tablets-1 because that's the protease, amylase, and lipase that they need when they have pancreatic issues. 

Adding digestive enzymes to a pet's diet won't hurt them, and if there IS an issue, it will help some. But choosing the right ones for a cat? No clue.

NOTE: I'm also giving Vlad Bragg's ACV and turmeric to help with his pancreatitis. But everything he gets helps his issues from totally different directions. The turmeric was the last thing I added, and it seemed to finally fix the lingering issues.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2015, 10:45:52 PM »
Thank you Dee, that's very helpful. I do read your Vlad threads but most of it is over my head.  When you carry it over here to Mazy's issues suddenly I am able to take it in better.  how strange.

Mazy cat is getting Vet's-Best twice a day now and I've been told by someone who researches these things that the V-B is an excellent source of digestive enzymes.  I keep meaning to ask her for more clarification on that.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2015, 11:00:19 PM »
Your cat needs the same thing. Does Vet's Best provide:
1. Protease, to break down protein 2. Lipase, to digest fat. 3. Amylase, to process carbohydrates.

From http://ivcjournal.com/digestive-enzymes/
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2015, 11:01:10 PM »
And you know these threads are so helpful to use as a reference.  I can come back here and check on things I've said or things you guys have said, it's wonderful isn't it?

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2015, 11:01:43 PM »
Your cat needs the same thing. Does Vet's Best provide:
1. Protease, to break down protein 2. Lipase, to digest fat. 3. Amylase, to process carbohydrates.

From http://ivcjournal.com/digestive-enzymes/

I'm looking into it. Thanks

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2015, 11:05:17 PM »
Does Vet's Best have a fiber ingredient in it?

Quote
Fibers absolutely impact nutrient uptake, as it slows down the passage of the food through the GI tract. In a study on fiber, the authors used guar gum. It's an older study, 1997. And the link to the PDF doesn't seem to be working right at the moment. frown.gif

This is the link http://livestocklibrary.com.au/bitstream/handle/1234/19826/97_110.pdf?sequence=1

The study is Harper & Siever-Kelly, "Effect of fibre on nutrient availability in cats of different ages"

But the conclusion was that it can interfere with protein metabolism and minerals, and that supplementation of minerals should be considered when a fiber is added to a cat's diet. So you may be seeing them hungrier.

I'm not seeing that in any of my kitties. But the fiber-nutrient relationship is documented, so that may well be what you're seeing. frown.gif

I was trying to look up Vet's Best, and I ended up seeing that quote here:  http://www.thecatsite.com/t/279924/vets-best-hairball-relief-interesting-observation

There's not any chance that the Vet's Best is causing some kind of malabsorption, is there?
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2015, 11:23:18 PM »
Hmmm.....from the added psyllium, you mean.  But..could that small amount make that much difference? 

I did get the new Slippery Elm Bark.  Haven't started it yet because she seemed to be doing okay with the Vet's-Best.

The V-B does have the digestive enzymes listed on the label.  how much is the question




Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2015, 11:27:18 PM »
found the list of ingredients so I don't have to try to read them off the label (too tiny!)

Active Ingredients: Psyllium Seed, Marshmallow (Althea Officinalis), Slippery Elm Bark (Ulmas Fulva), Allzyme(Lactobacillus Acidophillus, Aspergillus Oryzae, Bacillus Subtiles, Papain, Amylase, Protease), Papaya Extract (Papain) Inactive Ingredients: Apple Powder, Brewers Yeast, Calcium Carbonate, Chicken (Dried), Liver (Defatted Pork), Magnesium Stearate, Natural Flavorings, Yeast (Torula)

No lipase, but she gets the Egg Yolk Lecithin.

(edit) and wouldn't there be more indications of malnutrition?  I mean you should see her!  Full thick soft glossy coat.  Clear bright eyes.  Long full whiskers..

I know when my vet was first looking at her and stroking her she must have been thinkig I've gone crazy to be worrying about this obviously thriving cat!

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2015, 11:47:07 PM »
Then that should take care of the 3 enzymes, but that psyllium. The post from http://www.thecatsite.com/t/279924/vets-best-hairball-relief-interesting-observation is making me wonder if there's a mineral malabsorption of some sort because of it.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2015, 11:51:12 PM »

(edit) and wouldn't there be more indications of malnutrition?  I mean you should see her!  Full thick soft glossy coat.  Clear bright eyes.  Long full whiskers..

I know when my vet was first looking at her and stroking her she must have been thinkig I've gone crazy to be worrying about this obviously thriving cat!

That's why I'm wondering if there's some kind of new, wild play going on at home while you're gone.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2015, 07:17:56 AM »
How did the feeding go last night?
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2015, 09:03:38 AM »
Then that should take care of the 3 enzymes, but that psyllium. The post from http://www.thecatsite.com/t/279924/vets-best-hairball-relief-interesting-observation is making me wonder if there's a mineral malabsorption of some sort because of it.

But mineral malabsorption would not affect calories.  Also, she does get her ACV with both V-B meals. And the ACV increases mineral absorption.

I'm starting to wonder about the Egg Yolk Lecitin though.  It breaks down fat, freeing the ingested fur.  But does it also stop the absorption of this fat? She's been on a high dose of EYL for over two years. Could that suddenly catch up to her, causing the diarrhea first, then the weight loss?

Or wait..if it breaks down fat, that would improve the absorption of it though..wouldn't it?

I have reduced the EYL since the diarrhea episode though.  She still gets a whole one every morning, but only gets a second capsule two times a week.  It hasn't changed the pattern (or lack of) of her regurgitation episodes any, so maybe I'll eliminate that second one all together and see how she does.

How did the feeding go last night?

By staying up until 1 a.m. I was able to get 4 ounces into her, no puking! bananamiddlechild

 But I was so wound up from my time on here and the IBD group I stayed up for two more hours, not getting into bed until 3 a.m..

Slept until 8:30 this morning and feel like I have a hangover  funny2


Offline DeeDee

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2015, 09:49:19 AM »

Or wait..if it breaks down fat, that would improve the absorption of it though..wouldn't it?


Yes. It's when it's NOT broken down that they stop absorbing what they need from it.

I have reduced the EYL since the diarrhea episode though.  She still gets a whole one every morning, but only gets a second capsule two times a week.  It hasn't changed the pattern (or lack of) of her regurgitation episodes any, so maybe I'll eliminate that second one all together and see how she does.

It's about humans, but this says that you need to increase caloric intake after a flare of IBD. Now if the diarrhea was a "flare", and since you've already increased caloric intake, maybe you didn't increase it enough?

Quote
Increase your calorie and protein intake following a flare. Abdominal pain, diarrhea and decreased appetite may have caused poor food intake. Steroids used to treat flares also can increase protein needs.


http://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/nutrition_tips_for_inflammatory_bowel_disease/

But mineral malabsorption would not affect calories.  Also, she does get her ACV with both V-B meals. And the ACV increases mineral absorption.

But vitamin and mineral malabsorption can cause weight loss in humans, so I'm going to just assume it does the same in animals. Especially when they're smaller animals like the small bodies of children:

Quote

Part 3 of 6: Symptoms

*If you have a vitamin deficiency, you may have anemia, malnutrition, low blood pressure, weight loss, and muscle wasting.

Children with malabsorption syndrome may avoid certain foods. They may also fail to grow properly. Their weight or rate of weight gain may be significantly below that of other children of a similar age and gender.

http://www.healthline.com/health/malabsorption#Symptoms3

At least she's eating and not acting like a child.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Middle Child

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Re: Mazy has declined supper
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2015, 10:09:53 AM »
Thanks Dee.  All very helpful

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