Parenting-Furkids

Cats => Cat Food And Nutrition => Raw Feeding => Topic started by: Middle Child on January 17, 2018, 04:37:37 PM

Title: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 17, 2018, 04:37:37 PM
I've just narrowed this down, but it's been going on for a while. At first not as regular, but now I have found the pattern.

Jennie (normal health) is having a soft smelly poop twice a week. She gets beef, one meal, twice a week. The pattern is this smelly soft poop 3 days, almost to the hour, after she has had a beef meal. She gets beef for supper Sunday and Wednesday. And now I'm seeing every Wednesday and every Saturday, this smelly mucusy sometimes large, poop.

 I never heard of a protein intolerance taking 3 days to show up but the beef is the only consistent thing, with the poops. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Jennie developiong an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on January 17, 2018, 04:42:57 PM
Cut the beef out one week.... see what happens. 
Title: Re: Jennie developiong an intolerance to beef?
Post by: DeeDee on January 17, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Cut the beef out one week.... see what happens. 

This.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 17, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
Yes of course I intend to do that thank you both.  That wasn't what I am wondering about. I just never heard of any cat taking 3 days for the reaction to show.

It's consistent, three days after she has the beef, she has those yucky poops.  I've gone back several months in the records now. Some weeks there is no reaction. But lately, the last three weeks, it's been every Wednesday and every Saturday. Her other supper meals rotate between chicken thigh and turkey thigh and there is nothing to indicate it is either of those.

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: DeeDee on January 17, 2018, 05:30:06 PM
Yes of course I intend to do that thank you both.  That wasn't what I am wondering about. I just never heard of any cat taking 3 days for the reaction to show.



Is it always the same poultry protein each night before the soft poops?

Dannyboy had several food issues, and it was almost immediately that he'd start reacting after getting something he shouldn't have.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 17, 2018, 05:54:21 PM
Is it always the same poultry protein each night before the soft poops?

Dannyboy had several food issues, and it was almost immediately that he'd start reacting after getting something he shouldn't have.

No.  Sometimes it is chicken the night before and some nights it is turkey.  The only pattern is the 3 days after the beef.

Sunday night is beef.  Monday is chicken or turkey.  Tuesday is chicken or turkey.  Not always the same on the same night.  Wednesday night is beef.  Thursday and Friday again alternate chicken or turkey, as does Saturday.

Mazy cat also reacts immediately.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: DeeDee on January 17, 2018, 06:14:48 PM
Then elimination or partial elimination is the only way you're going to figure it out. If removing the beef doesn't work, you're going to have to remove the others one at a time too.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on January 17, 2018, 10:02:53 PM
I just never heard of any cat taking 3 days for the reaction to show.

I've never heard of that, either, but . . . that doesn't mean it's not possible.  Pookie, like your Mazy, reacted to foods almost immediately to within an hour.  I don't recall him ever having poop issues as a result of food, other than when he and his sister were on the "prescription" IBD food, which generated a LOT of poop.

I'm wondering 2 things, and bear with me because this is just me "thinking out loud" -- perhaps she needs digestive enzymes (or more than what she currently gets -- I don't remember if she gets them or if it's just Mazy) to help with beef, and/or perhaps adding some ACV (again, or more than she currently gets) with the beef would help her with the digestion.  Another thought, add (more) probiotics when she gets beef.  Basically, I'm wondering if the beef is somehow placing more of a demand on her digestive system than the poultry, and therefore she needs more "help," whether it be probiotics, digestive enzymes, ACV or a combination of any of them.  If I had to start somewhere, I'd start with the ACV, because I have a sneaky hunch that beef needs a little more acid to help break it down.  I have no proof of that, it's just me having a hunch.  Because, and Heaven knows, I could be totally wrong, to me an intolerance generates vomiting or regurgitating, which is the body's way of getting it out ASAP, and not so much a poop issue.  Again, though, I could be wrong.  To me, a poop issue means she needs some assistance with the digestive process.

All that said, you need to do whatever makes you most comfortable, and if you'd prefer to go the "elimination" route, by all means do it.  It certainly couldn't hurt to try it.  Another option:  eliminate the beef for a week, and if the poops are normal, slowly add it back with some ACV and see if that makes a difference.  Personally, I'd hate to see her lose a different protein if all she needs is some additional digestive support, so testing the beef with something like ACV might be worth a go.  You can always stop giving the beef if nothing else helps.

 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 18, 2018, 04:59:13 AM
Thanks Pookie, she already gets digestive enzymes with every meal because she is on EZc with every meal.  And probiotics with that meal.  However, the ACV is a good idea.

But first I will stop the beef and see if the problem goes away.  Like you I do not want her to lose her 3rd protein.  Well I could replace it with pork, because I never did introduce pork to them because I just don't have room for another protein in the freezer.

Once I've established it is the beef, for sure I'll try feeding it with ACV. But in the meantime I'll start the pork.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on January 19, 2018, 08:48:56 PM
Sooooo tomorrow we get a poop update?  :) 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 20, 2018, 08:22:37 AM
I'll let you know as soon as she gives me one.  ;D I started her on the ACV yesterday.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on January 20, 2018, 08:31:40 AM
I'll let you know as soon as she gives me one.  ;D I started her on the ACV yesterday.

 thumbsup1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 20, 2018, 09:05:21 AM
I'm wondering if it's what the beef cows are fed. Remember the skittles thing?  That is true, you know. Waste candy put in beef cattle feed. When I do return her to beef (after I determine IF it's the beef) I guess I am going to have to go organic for her, for beef. It's only 2 meals a week (and one for Queen Eva) so I suppose I could fit it in the budget.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on January 20, 2018, 10:01:14 AM
That is quite possible.  I always forget to consider what the animal was fed!!! 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 20, 2018, 12:22:34 PM
Jennie had a normal "raw fed" poop just now, with one exception.  Normal size and texture and consistency, just a shell with a bit of fur.  BUT. It still smells bad.  But what it smells like..I am beginning to realize (had this aha moment last night) is s.boulardii.  Mazy cat's poop smells the same way.  I started Jennie on a small amount of the s.boulardii when these Wed/Sat bad poops first started, before I noticed the pattern I mean.

I am stopping the s.boulardii for Jennie, keeping on with the ACV, and continuing with the elimination of beef, and will see what happens.

I am reluctant to stop the s.boulardii for Mazy cat, I feel she needs it.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: DeeDee on January 20, 2018, 12:23:32 PM
I'm wondering if it's what the beef cows are fed. Remember the skittles thing?  That is true, you know. Waste candy put in beef cattle feed. When I do return her to beef (after I determine IF it's the beef) I guess I am going to have to go organic for her, for beef. It's only 2 meals a week (and one for Queen Eva) so I suppose I could fit it in the budget.

A good possibility that it is. I was wondering about that. GMOs are a main staple in cattle feed if they're not organic. Plus, if there were any kind of infection in the herd, antibiotics were used.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 20, 2018, 12:26:47 PM
Yes, everything not organic can be expected to be GMO fed.  But up until now Jennie has never had a problem with that, and I don't think she is having a problem with the poultry meals.

I updated the poop report, it must have posted the same time you did, usually I get a warning about that.


Jennie had a normal "raw fed" poop just now, with one exception.  Normal size and texture and consistency, just a shell with a bit of fur.  BUT. It still smells bad.  But what it smells like..I am beginning to realize (had this aha moment last night) is s.boulardii.  Mazy cat's poop smells the same way.  I started Jennie on a small amount of the s.boulardii when these Wed/Sat bad poops first started, before I noticed the pattern I mean.

I am stopping the s.boulardii for Jennie, keeping on with the ACV, and continuing with the elimination of beef, and will see what happens.

I am reluctant to stop the s.boulardii for Mazy cat, I feel she needs it.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on January 20, 2018, 10:03:03 PM
I'm wondering if it's what the beef cows are fed.

 Doh1  Good point!  I didn't think of that!   :-[

I started her on the ACV yesterday.

Actually, I was thinking she might only need the ACV when fed the beef.  But if you want to give it to her with other meals, that works, too.   :)

My other thought was that maybe beef is higher in magnesium than poultry, so giving bone (calcium) with it might firm up her stools.  However . . . in my SUPER quick search, I didn't find anything that confirmed that, so . . . never mind.   :)

I'm glad this poop was more "normal" than the other ones had been!   thumbsup1  Really good observation about the s.boulardii smell.  And I agree, there's no need to stop it for Mazy if you feel she needs it.  Jennie, on the other hand, may not need it.  You'll find out soon enough.   :)
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 21, 2018, 09:54:46 AM
Well I started Jennie on the s.boulardii when she started having the bad poops.  I hadn't yet caught on that there was a pattern.  She didn't take as much as Mazy cat, I only gave it to her with her supper meal, except for after a really bad poop, I'd give a whole one. But I do think I am on to why Mazy cat's poop has a funny smell, and Jennie's does sometimes.  Queen Eva's never does and she never has s.boulardii.

Regarding considering what the meat was fed, it's something I always think about.  After all that is why Mazy cat has to have organic non-GMO Project Verified meat and eggs.  She cannot tolerate anything that has been fed GMO feed.

I am finding an intolerance for GMO in myself too, not to mention the other things that are used to grow vegetables (chemical waste water and such)

I am convinced that part of the reason there is so much insanity type behaviors in the world today is the food supply. People already a little ..'off..' pushed over the edge by the food our governments allow as safe.......

When you eat celery that has been watered with chemical waste, for instance, I imagine it does strange things to some people.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: DeeDee on January 21, 2018, 10:16:28 AM
While I agree that a lot of food factors into the physical/mental problems of a lot of people (some proven by studies like the ones done on HD/ADD), I don't think it's the reason so many are pushed over the edge.


The way children are raised these days (and have been since somewhere around the late 80's) has a MUCH larger effect on kids.

1. Computers and computer games instead of being pushed out the door to go play outside--games that teach immorality especially.
2. Parents deciding that they deserved lives away from those kids--regularly.
3. TVs, gaming systems, computers, phones in children's rooms so that they have the ability to isolate more readily.
4. Parents on their own phones so much that their children can't get attention and feel unwanted.

I can keep on with the list, but it's a combination of more than just food that has made us start having to share the world with crazy people. The people have been grown this way.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on January 28, 2018, 09:59:18 AM
No change in the occasional smelly soft poop pattern with the elimination of beef this past week.  So I looked at the pattern again, is it the turkey thigh?  The chicken thigh?  The breast of either?  No other pattern.

Perhaps I need to cut back on her fat a little.  I had added skin to her diet about a year or so ago, because of some constipation issues.  Maybe with the issue solved, she now needs less skin.  So that's the next step.

I'm going to keep her on the ACV though.  I had noticed, when the weather first turned cold in the fall that she was showing some signs of arthritis stiffness, for the first time. The addition of ACV daily has eliminated that, in fact I noticed a difference after the second day.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on January 30, 2018, 08:12:11 PM
I'm going to keep her on the ACV though.  I had noticed, when the weather first turned cold in the fall that she was showing some signs of arthritis stiffness, for the first time. The addition of ACV daily has eliminated that, in fact I noticed a difference after the second day.

That's great!   bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 02, 2018, 08:50:44 AM
I just happened to hop over to the Raw feeding for IBD group last night to browse a little and found a thread from someone dealing with a similar issue.  Well, actually an almost identical issue.  Cat was constipated, so fat was increased to combat the constipation, increased fat lead to smelly soft poops.

It was suggested that cat may be having trouble digesting the fat.  I had come to that conclusion with Jennie, but cutting back on the fat only led to her having trouble pooping.  Almost immediately after cutting back, in fact. Last night she had her poop stuck and had to drag her bottom along the floor to get it off.

The possible solutions for helping the cat digest her fat were to add taurine to the diet or lipase (a digestive enzyme)  Since Jennie is already getting plenty of lipase with every meal (she is on EZcomplete 6 out of 7 days a week) I opted for the taurine addition.

 I have Alnutrin taurine.  The group admin helped me work out the dose and I will now be adding 250 mg of taurine a day, split between her three meals that contain higher fat.

Stay tuned!   catmilk1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 02, 2018, 10:24:50 AM
I forgot to include the reasoning behind the taurine.

According to the admin (who does research as a living, above and beyond what she does for the group she co-founded) "Cats use taurine to conjugate bile acids, and as there's clearly some impairment in the GI tract, the extra taurine might help with fat digestion. "

The study is here

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5508316/

Now, Jennie has never shown any signs of IBD. Her only digetive issue, EVER, has been constipation, until this recent problem with soft, large smelly stool.. But as I know, that can be an indication of IBD.

When I rescued her she was approximately 2 years old (give or take a few months, vet's best guess) living off the land and on the dry food my friends were putting out.  What she ate before I don't know, but considering she wasn't spayed and had been abandoned right around the time college kids leave for the summer, I am guessing junk kibble.

So even though she went right onto canned with me, and five years later, raw, the potential for damage is already there. As we know, poor diet does a lot of damage, even if it takes years for that damage to show. I mean, even though she has been on a best diet for the past almost 6 years, and a canned for 5 years before that, the damage done in her first two years is now showing up.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on February 02, 2018, 05:56:08 PM
Quote
The group admin helped me work out the dose and I will now be adding 250 mg of taurine a day, split between her three meals that contain higher fat.

Did you figure out the dose to avoid too much?  I ask because I had thought I had read that it is almost impossible to give a cat too much taurine.  I found this:
Quote
Both grinding and freezing reduce available taurine, but by how much is not clear. That is why I add supplemental taurine when making homemade or supplementing pre-ground meat/bone/organ mixes. Taurine is not toxic in cats and is water-soluble, so any extra the cat can't use just gets flushed out in their urine.⁴ I would rather add some extra taurine to the food and have a cat with expensive pee than risk a taurine deficiency which could lead to serious heart problems or death.

https://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/how-much-taurine-should-i-add
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 02, 2018, 06:29:43 PM
Thanks for adding that important information to the discussion, Lola.  Yes I know unused taurine just gets peed out so cats aren't at risk for toxic levels.  "you can't give too much taurine" in other words.

But I needed some kind of guidance, after all. No point in pouring a ton in and wasting it, you know? Laurie, in her research for someone else a while back, discovered that an additional 250 mg a day can benefit a cat who is not absorbing enough taurine during digestion to help process the fat.

Anyway, she also said, if it's going to help, I'll know in a few days.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on February 02, 2018, 06:36:26 PM
AFTER I posted, I figured out you probably were just looking for an amount.  A non-wasteful amount. 

Anyway, hope it does the trick!!! 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 02, 2018, 06:48:11 PM
It's good information for anyone reading, Lola, so thank you for posting it, and the link. They get taurine on prey-model days (Sundays) so I always have it in the house, anyway.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on February 02, 2018, 09:39:58 PM
I just happened to hop over to the Raw feeding for IBD group last night to browse a little and found a thread from someone dealing with a similar issue.  Well, actually an almost identical issue.  Cat was constipated, so fat was increased to combat the constipation, increased fat lead to smelly soft poops.

It was suggested that cat may be having trouble digesting the fat.  I had come to that conclusion with Jennie, but cutting back on the fat only led to her having trouble pooping.  Almost immediately after cutting back, in fact. Last night she had her poop stuck and had to drag her bottom along the floor to get it off.

The possible solutions for helping the cat digest her fat were to add taurine to the diet or lipase (a digestive enzyme)  Since Jennie is already getting plenty of lipase with every meal (she is on EZcomplete 6 out of 7 days a week) I opted for the taurine addition.

 I have Alnutrin taurine.  The group admin helped me work out the dose and I will now be adding 250 mg of taurine a day, split between her three meals that contain higher fat.

Stay tuned!   catmilk1

That's really interesting!  Ya learn something new every day . . . Thanks for sharing.  I really hope it does the trick.   fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 03, 2018, 09:45:30 AM
After having a normal amount of fat added yesterday, Jennie had a normal "raw" poop this morning, no smell.  Too soon to tell for sure if it's working?  Maybe.  Just keeping things chronological.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on February 03, 2018, 10:14:25 AM
Yay!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on February 03, 2018, 11:33:21 PM
Cool!  Still  fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed that it continues.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 07, 2018, 01:36:23 PM
The taurine has not made a difference.  Jennie just had a big very smelly poop. I cleaned it out immediately, and even so the smell is still in the air. Some of it softish. She's still following the same sometimes normal poops sometimes these other kind.

Next step is to take her off chicken. Which will screw up my whole feeding method of the last 2 years.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on February 07, 2018, 01:48:07 PM

Which will screw up my whole feeding method of the last 2 years.

:(

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 07, 2018, 04:05:31 PM
And, what if it's not the chicken or the turkey?  See, I cannot find a pattern here to either of these proteins. The only way to know of course is to eliminate them both.   See if it makes a difference, then add each one back, one at a time. But I am going to have to get her onto pork, first.  I can't feed her just beef!

Jennie really needs variety. With chicken breast and thigh, and turkey breast and thigh, and beef, she is getting 5 different things.

And the thought of eliminating her beloved wing on Sunday just makes me want to cry.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 07, 2018, 06:19:37 PM
All right.  I've had a thought.  Could it be because she gets her whole chunk meals frozen? I mean, not frozen solid, it's been softened a bit, but I give it to her that way because it takes her longer to eat it. She feels more satisfied (psychological satisfaction) if she has to work at her meal.

If I give it to her thawed she practically swallows it whole.

I thought that, because they absorb the nutrients in their intestines, and of course by the time the meat gets there it's not frozen any more, it is okay.  But I wonder.

Anyone know? It might explain the seemingly randomness of it. Well I know I said every Wednesday and Saturday, but what if there are other times I am not recording it.

Opinions please!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on February 07, 2018, 10:08:30 PM
Hmm . . . you might be onto something there.  It might be worth a try to go 1 week with thawing the chunks completely, just to see if it makes a difference.  And try it before eliminating proteins.  You can always do the elimination later.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 10, 2018, 08:35:44 AM
Darn those chunks take a long time to thaw!  funny2

I have had another thought, in the mean time.  When her poops are small "normal raw fed poop" They have no odor.  Only the bigger ones have that foul smell.  Bigger with a foul smell does indicate the food is not being properly digests, but why?

On the other hand, perhaps the bigger poops are clearing the anal glands, and that is why the strong odor.  Jennie does have trouble with her anal glands, and has to have the periodically emptied at the vet. Sometimes I can flip her upside down, jiggle her bottom and have them spontaneously erupt, but it doesn't always work.

The anal gland theory came to me the other day when I noticed they were starting to be visible again. (A little brown dot on either side)  Then she had one of those room clearing poops.  Later, I noticed the anal glands were no longer appearing full.

I've also got some pork bone broth to start her on, and I've started adding SEB to her last meal of the day, and she's back on the s.boulardii.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on February 10, 2018, 09:56:37 PM
Not on topic, but.... do you know why Jennie had trouble with her anal glands? 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 11, 2018, 08:33:26 AM
Not on topic, but.... do you know why Jennie had trouble with her anal glands? 

It's on topic if it's causing the smell, though. No I do not know why. Both Mazy cat and Jennie have to have their anal glands expressed by the vet on a regular basis.  I've had one other cat, my Bibbs, who did, too.

None of the others, Baby, Sissy, Squeaky, Ootay or Tolly, ever did.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 11, 2018, 07:52:35 PM
I've stopped the extra taurine.  It wasn't making a difference, and Jennie got...weird on it.  Grouchy.  She actually went after me and tried to bite me one night, when I was brushing her, in bed.  Our nightly ritual, which she loves. Sometimes I might get a little too...enthusiastic and she will let me know to go more softly, but not like this.  I stopped the instant she told me to, but she actually came after me.  I had to shove her away with the bed.

She also was getting very grouchy with Mazy cat and Queen Eva.

  She still gets it with her prey model meals of course, but no more extras.

We're carrying on with the completely thawed meals (as opposed to partially frozen) and, I've added the pork bone broth, but I am not sure I will give it to her every day.

On the elimination trial front, since I've just run out of turkey breast (well I have more in the freezer but it isn't cut up yet) I am going to not use that this week and see what happens.

I am still dithering over the pork, whether to serve it raw or poached.  She and Queen Eva are getting a small piece of cooked pork each day to get their bodies ready for it.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 18, 2018, 09:03:51 AM
Jennie is enjoying her thawed meals.  As it turns out I was wrong about her eating them too fast when thawed, in fact she seems to have to work even harder on the meat when it is thawed completely.  I've also started gving her a little SEB in her last meal of the day, and have resumed the s.boulardii once a day (1/4 capsule)

The only protein she is not getting at the moment is turkey breast.

There have been no big loose smelly stools, though some of her normal "raw fed' poops are still a bit smellier than I would like.

This morning her breakfast was taking so long to thaw, I gave it to her half frozen. Big mistake.  Ten minutes after she ate it, it came back up.  Now she's not used to it frozen, I guess her tummy can't handle it.  I felt so bad for her!

I'm going to be cutting up turkey breast today and adding it back into the rotation this week, so I will soon know if this is something that she can't handle any more(she has continued to eat turkey thigh, chicken breast and chicken thigh and beef, with no issues)
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 19, 2018, 09:09:45 AM
Started Jennie back on turkey breast today.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Catgirl64 on February 22, 2018, 06:56:42 PM
It sounds like she is doing better, then? 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on February 22, 2018, 09:32:07 PM
If it matters any... our furkids eat all their raw meals right from the refrigerator...completely thawed. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 23, 2018, 05:32:39 AM
It sounds like she is doing better, then? 

Well she hasn't had any of those big soft ones in a while. But some, even though they look like normal raw fed poops, are still very strong smelling. Thanks for asking!

If it matters any... our furkids eat all their raw meals right from the refrigerator...completely thawed. 

Jennie's meats are still a bit cold, just not frozen like they were.

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Catgirl64 on February 23, 2018, 11:14:23 PM
Have you decided what to do about pork yet?  I saw you mention that you were offering small bits of it cooked.  If you have decided to add it as a regular item, do you have a Sprouts Market in your area?  I get a lot of my meat there, because they don't add solution to it, even their bagged roasts are free of that stuff.  Shoulder roasts are on sale this week, 99 cents/lb.  There is a limit of two per customer, so J and I will be going in with separate carts.   >:D
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on February 24, 2018, 10:06:47 PM
If you have decided to add it as a regular item, do you have a Sprouts Market in your area? 

Thanks for the suggestion, but both MC and I are in the NorthEast, so we'd have to go to Maryland to get to the closest Sprouts.  But maybe there's something near MC that would be an option?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on February 26, 2018, 05:12:53 AM
Thank you Catgirl, I do not have a Sprouts. I have a choice of Walmart, two local (local to the Northeast USA I mean) grocery chains, or Aldis.  I never go in Aldis, that building is along the river and floods often and I find the smell of mold too awful.

I have not yet fed the pork.  I can't get past my early conditioned fear of raw pork.  I may cook it and feed it that way.  Jennie and Queen Eva do go nuts over the cooked pork bits (from the bone broth) I give them.

Jennie continues to really show no pattern to the smelly poops.  Sometimes I THINK it might be turkey, but then there will be days and days with normal non smelly stool, regardless of what she is fed.

There haven't been any of those bigger soft ones in a month or so, though.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Catgirl64 on March 01, 2018, 04:04:41 AM
Thank you Catgirl, I do not have a Sprouts. I have a choice of Walmart, two local (local to the Northeast USA I mean) grocery chains, or Aldis.  I never go in Aldis, that building is along the river and floods often and I find the smell of mold too awful.

I have not yet fed the pork.  I can't get past my early conditioned fear of raw pork.  I may cook it and feed it that way.  Jennie and Queen Eva do go nuts over the cooked pork bits (from the bone broth) I give them.

Jennie continues to really show no pattern to the smelly poops.  Sometimes I THINK it might be turkey, but then there will be days and days with normal non smelly stool, regardless of what she is fed.

There haven't been any of those bigger soft ones in a month or so, though.

Rats.  I am sorry you don't have Sprouts.  If pressed to describe it, I would say it's part health-food store, part Aldi's, due to some of the prices, and part Whole Foods, minus the ambiance.  :)

Our Aldi's is in a nice location, and we shop there with some frequency, but I generally do not buy meat for the cats and dogs there.  Their whole roasts usually have some sort of solution, and it's usually whole roasts I am looking for, due to the cost of feeding eight animals.  Sometimes I will get fresh chicken there, if no one else has a good sale going on. 

I never would have expected to be promoting Walmart, but it is possible to find meat there that doesn't have a lot of additives.  Should you decide to offer cooked pork or overcome your reservations about giving it raw, an easy way to start is with what they call "country style ribs."  They aren't really ribs at all - at least the ones I have gotten are not - because they don't have bones, but they are already partially cut up and generally fairly lean. 

Turkey.  I haven't fed turkey yet.  I want to try it if I can find breasts or whole birds that haven't been adulterated.  The prices they ask here for legs and wings are ridiculous, given the proportion of bone to meat.  Once I've cut the meat off of a leg that cost $3/lb., I'm left with so little that I might as well have gotten them lamb.  Wings are undoubtedly useful as a bony meal for people who feed prey model, or as a treat for pets who love them.  So far, most of mine don't.  :(  Bandit likes bones, but a cut-up Cornish hen would keep him happy for a week, as a "side dish."

The issue of bones brings me to one final question about broth.  I've pretty much decided that deboning whole leg quarters is a major headache, but I will continue to buy them for J and myself, as they are a favorite when cooked on the grill.  My question is, can I save these bones to make the cats' broth?  Seasoning will have been used, obviously, but I cannot imagine that it will have penetrated all the way to the bone. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 01, 2018, 04:46:48 AM
I wouldn't use bones that have had any kind of seasoning added to the meat when cooked.

I am starting to really think it's turkey and will be eliminating it from Jennie's diet for a while to see. It's too bad because she really loves it, they both do.

The pork I bought was a package of "mixed chops".  They were easy to cut up/remove from the bone.  Still in the freezer unused.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 03, 2018, 11:27:46 AM
Jennie will be having her first raw pork tonight.  The other day she had a nice normal poop, no odor and I thought, well, darn, it must not be the turkey (because she had had turkey breast and thigh the day before).

Then, later that day she had a larger poop that smelled so bad, even though I scooped it immediately the smell hung around for hours.  And the next morning another stinker. That's a lot of poop for a raw fed cat.

Now she is off all turkey, with the exception of turkey skin, because that is the only fat I have for her at the moment.

I was thinking...maybe the skin of turkey won't be an issue since it isn't protein?

Of course I still don't know if turkey is the real issue, but I think so. Next time I shop I'll go back to getting the chicken thigh on the bone, with skin, and use chicken skin.

Jennie will be eating chicken breast, chicken thigh, pork and beef.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 03, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
 fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on March 03, 2018, 08:52:12 PM
 fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed

Technically, skin is also protein as well as fat.  But I'm sure you're not feeding huge portions of skin so maybe it'll be ok.  You'll find out soon enough.

Crossing paws . . .  fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Catgirl64 on March 05, 2018, 10:34:15 AM
Jennie will be having her first raw pork tonight.  The other day she had a nice normal poop, no odor and I thought, well, darn, it must not be the turkey (because she had had turkey breast and thigh the day before).

Then, later that day she had a larger poop that smelled so bad, even though I scooped it immediately the smell hung around for hours.  And the next morning another stinker. That's a lot of poop for a raw fed cat.

Now she is off all turkey, with the exception of turkey skin, because that is the only fat I have for her at the moment.

I was thinking...maybe the skin of turkey won't be an issue since it isn't protein?

Of course I still don't know if turkey is the real issue, but I think so. Next time I shop I'll go back to getting the chicken thigh on the bone, with skin, and use chicken skin.

Jennie will be eating chicken breast, chicken thigh, pork and beef.

So...how did she like it? 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 05, 2018, 01:12:29 PM
Oh she loves it all, liking it isn't an issue with her. ThxGiv6 <---Jennie  funny2

  And they both go crazy over the cooked pork treats (meat picked out of the bone broth and frozen in little bits)

I just can't get over my conditioning that raw pork is dangerous. But I'm working on it.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 05, 2018, 09:22:03 PM

I just can't get over my conditioning that raw pork is dangerous. But I'm working on it.

Doesn't EZ Complete have a cooked version of their stuff?  I could Google... too lazy.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 06, 2018, 05:09:47 AM
Doesn't EZ Complete have a cooked version of their stuff?  I could Google... too lazy.


You mean directions to use it with cooked meat. Yes I know how to do that.  I've considered it.  I don't like to make "batches" is one problem.

But the meat being already weighed out I could just pop a portion in my little pot with the lid before feeding, simmer it a bit.  I have thought of doing it that way. Especially because they really seem to go crazy over the cooked pork.

For anyone curious EZc can be used with cooked meat.  You have to know the weight of the meat raw, and be sure to include all juices when feeding.  The amount of EZc is based on the weight of the meat raw.

Yesterday morning Jennie had a normal poop, no odor.  I celebrated too soon as last night she had a stinker. And then another poop today, not as bad.  What the heck is making her poop so much?

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 06, 2018, 05:25:05 PM
I wasn't sure if EZ had a raw and cooked version of their product.  I didn't doubt you could do it.  :)

No idea about the extra pooping...
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 06, 2018, 06:12:30 PM
Jennie had her pork poached tonight.  She went crazy over it.

However she also had another stinky poop.  They look normal..but stink to high heaven, and are way too often for a raw fed cat.

Well she's still getting the turkey skin.  This weekend I'll have to get some chicken thigh so I can get her completely off turkey.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 06, 2018, 07:17:28 PM
Wow that is a lot of pooping... stinky or not.  Too much skin maybe.   :-\
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 06, 2018, 07:24:23 PM
That's what I thought at first.  But when I cut back on the fat she immediately become constipated again.  She is only getting 0.1 (one tenth of an ounce) of skin a day.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 06, 2018, 07:26:32 PM
Oh that's right... I remember you mentioning that. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on March 06, 2018, 09:24:24 PM
Yesterday morning Jennie had a normal poop, no odor.  I celebrated too soon as last night she had a stinker. And then another poop today, not as bad.  What the heck is making her poop so much?

Only other thing I can come up with, and this may be a long shot:  maybe she's shedding (longer days) and the ingested fur from grooming is contributing to the extra poopage?   :-\
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 07, 2018, 04:47:43 AM
Thanks Pookie. That's a thought. She started shedding a couple weeks ago.  Hmmmm.  Queen Eva started in early February.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 13, 2018, 07:06:03 PM
Any improvements?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 13, 2018, 09:18:27 PM
Less odor.  Still too much poop. She had pork raw tonight.  She really loves it. She......aroos, after eating it.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on March 13, 2018, 09:47:23 PM
She had pork raw tonight.  She really loves it. She......aroos, after eating it.

???  If you can get that on video, I'd love to hear it.  I can't imagine what that sounds like, other than a cartoon dog's howl.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on March 14, 2018, 12:22:04 AM
Happy to hear the pork is going over good, for the cats AND you!

I second the video. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 14, 2018, 04:47:49 AM
Next time she has the pork I'll shoot a video. Jennie is the only one getting raw pork.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 17, 2018, 01:12:10 PM
Jennie had raw pork last night but she didn't yodel or aroo after.  Maybe because I was sitting right on the floor with the camera pointed at her.  I think I am starting to see improvement.  It has been 2 weeks since she has had any turkey, but is still having turkey skin. 0.1 oz a day. I wil be cutting up chicken skin for her this weekend.

The last poop with odor was on 3/13.  And it was not really bad, just noticeable (compared to Queen Eva's for example)

She still seems to be pooping twice in less than 24 hours, though.  Not every day. She'll have a poop, skip a couple days, then poop twice the next time, for instance.

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on March 17, 2018, 05:58:25 PM
She still seems to be pooping twice in less than 24 hours, though.  Not every day. She'll have a poop, skip a couple days, then poop twice the next time, for instance.

That actually kind of makes sense, though.  If she skips a day, then she would have more to poop out when she finally does go.

I'm glad the smelly-poop situation seems to be improving!  *knock on wood*
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 17, 2018, 07:09:39 PM
That actually kind of makes sense, though.  If she skips a day, then she would have more to poop out when she finally does go.

I'm glad the smelly-poop situation seems to be improving!  *knock on wood*

Well, but raw fed cats usually have very little poop.  Poop every two or three days is more common. Every cat is individual of course. 

Mazy cat for instance poops every 36 hours almost without fail.  The only variation to that is when she goes 10 or more days between vomits.  Then fur seems to build up in there and she pukes for two or three days over the next four before finally having an extra poop, huge (comparatively) fur filled.

Queen Eva is an every 2-3 dayer, with a two days in a row every now and then. Jennie used to be similar to that.  I'm hoping she's heading back toward that.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on March 31, 2018, 09:13:37 AM
Things seem to be a little better, but Jennie is still having the occasional smelly poop, and they still seem to be bigger than one would expect.  Someone (Pookie?) suggested the larger poops may be due to shedding season, and I think that may be part of it.  I haven't been picking them apart lately to see how much fur is being passed, so maybe I should start doing that again.

Jennie is eating a lot of chicken now, since taking her off all the turkey and of course I worry about THAT now.  I've recently added Rad Cat lamb to her rotation, one meal a week. Only two weeks into that.

So she is getting chicken (both breast and thigh, and her wing on Sunday) beef, pork and now lamb. Rad Cat  venison one meal a week (Sunday night bedtime meal) as well.

I do wonder if the odor is originating from her anal glands. She always has trouble in that area...maybe she needs them expressed again.  I keep a close eye on them, and she hasn't been scooting but......
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on June 30, 2018, 08:34:23 AM
After much trial and error over the last few months, I have come to the psotive determination that the extra skin is the problem, Jennie, for whatever reason, is now unable to metablize that extra fat.

With the help of the IBD group I did try, with supplementation, to help her cope with the extra skin.  The suggestion was to add lipase (and/or ox bile).  I tried the lipase first. It gave her diarrhea, I am no longer using it.

I wasn't planning to update her progress until a full two weeks after the latest change but... I have stopped adding the extra fat entirely. 9 days since that change. She hasn't had a foul poop since. Not sure which way I will go if she should need help with constipation again, going forward. Neither SEB or psyllium work for her. I have increased her EYL by an extra half capsule a day. So she is getting 1/2 capsule at breakfast, 1/4 at supper and 1/4 at bedtime. Her lunch meal which is a small token meal, does not have any EYL.

Egg yolk lecithin, being a fat emulsifier, I figured it might help her cope, at least wiht the fat already in the meat.

So far I havne't seen evidence of constipation or hard dry stool..in fact the other evening she actually let me watch her poop, which she NEVER does.  There was no straining, and the poop was a classic raw fed cat poop with no odor.

I never did put her back on turkey, but I may, in time.  I am adding more Rad Cat to her diet for a little variety, since she is getting so much chicken now.

If she does start to have trouble with constipation, I may go to the coconut oil.  the IBD group recommends MCT (medium chain triglycerides) claiming that the old study stating they are bad for cats was based on a flaw in the trials.

The other alternative is pumpkin, that's what she used to have years ago, before I went to raw, and, after raw, before I learned about adding skin for extra fat.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on June 30, 2018, 09:53:20 AM
Quote
Not sure which way I will go if she should need help with constipation again, going forward.

One day at a time . . .  fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 01, 2018, 07:08:37 AM
Jennie had one of those foul soft poops this morning.  bangshead

Incidentally, it was mostly fur.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 08, 2018, 08:01:57 AM
Jennie had a foul poop mostly liquid on Monday July 2, and an out of the litter box poop with fresh blood.

My reasoning went like this:  She has a wing on Sundays.  Either a wing tip, or a split wing middle (also called wingette).  She had had a wing tip on Sunday July 1st.

The wing of course has skin on it, and I've already established that Jennie can, for whatever reaosn, no longer handle skin.  Doh1

The fresh blood?  I don't really know, but I'm guessing she was also unable to digest the bone properly and it caused some scratching on ti's way out.

So that's it for Jennie, no more wings on Sunday.  I feel awful taking them away from her, she loves her wings so much.

So now she gets egg shell calcium on Sunday, like the other two (Sunday is prey model day here)

Incidentally, after that episode on Monday, all has been perfectly normal with her poops. A LOT of fur in them, and none of that awful odor, and no mucus or sloppy poops.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 14, 2018, 01:47:59 PM
More bloody stool today.  Jennie will be going to the vet. I'll call Monday to make an appointment.  It won't be with my usual vet because I will need a late afternoon appointment and my vet doesn't work late afternoons.  I am fine with that and know what vet I want her to see. I don't know this vet's opinion on raw diets, but I guess I will find out.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 15, 2018, 07:18:31 PM
I couldn't remember why I thought the slippery elm wasn't good for Jennie, so last night, with her supper meal I gave her 1/8 teaspoon.

This morning I was reminded.  When she gets SEB, her poop sticks.  To her, so she had to drag her butt all over everything to get it off.  There were, again some signs of fresh blood, but just two tiny drops in the litter box.  The smell ws so bad I had to dump the freshly filled litter boxes and throw away the litter mat.

The other day I remember reading a reference to cats with some anatomical problem where they can't squat properly to poop.  And a little bell went off...at thee time, but then I forgot about it until today.  Jennie is very private about pooping and never lets me watch her.  Only ONCE before have I actually seen her do it and it was the first time she pooped blood..it was about 4 months ago, and she was doing it just as I came home for lunch.  I am so glad I saw her, because I never would have known whose it was.  However, she was standing up to poop.  And then, the other day I happened to see her again in the box.  She had already pooped, but she was still straining a little bit, and again, she was standing up.

So..all this is coming together now, I don't know why I didn't think about it all before.  I don't remember where I read the reference to cats who can't squat to pass stool but I'm writing it all out now so I didn't forget about it.  There was a mention that x rays were needed to diagnose the problem.  I will see that Jennie gets her x rays.

Wait..was it in Dr Becker's article on megacolon?  I see Dee has posted it here, I read it a couple weeks ago. Let me see...

Yep there is is in the box of "causes": Unfortunately she doesn't go into much detail about it.

A neurologic or neuromuscular disease that prevents the cat from assuming the posture necessary for defecation

However she also mentions anal glands, and Jennie has ALWAYS had anal gland problems.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: DeeDee on July 15, 2018, 08:46:04 PM

However she also mentions anal glands, and Jennie has ALWAYS had anal gland problems.

You don't think she's gotten an infected gland, do you? Is that possibly something you couldn't see?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 16, 2018, 05:16:56 AM
I don't know Dee.  She last had her anal glands expressed on May 11. There isn't any outer swelling and she shows no tenderness or excessive licking to the area. There could be a tear inside I suppose, but if there was, wouldn't there be blood with every poop?

She had a normal poop this morning.  I video taped it much to her annoyance.  She squatted a little more than I saw her those times she was passing the bloody bits, but still not completely normal.  Trying to get a shot of when she's doing it standing, to show the vet.

Sometimes when she has a normal poop, later in the day she will have one of the nasty smelly ones.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 20, 2018, 05:42:45 PM
It looks like Jennie may have developed an intolerance to chicken. She's been off chicken entirely for only 2 days, including the pre-mix Ezcomplete, which contains chicken liver. For a few days before that I was only reducing the amount of chicken, but she has been off the EZc pre-mix for almost a week now.

Last night, much to my annoyance I gave her a freeze friend chicken breast treat before I remembered. This morning she had once of those small slightly soft furry poops, no blood.  This evening she had a larger poop, full of fur, softer though, and some greenish mucus, and maybe a little surface blood.  I blame the chicken treat.

Stopping the chicken has shown some improvement but she needs time to heal of course. I'm looking into other pre-mixes for her, I would like to use Alnutrin but I don't know yet if egg shell calcium will also be a problem for her. Rad Cat, which she is currently getting more than usual of, also uses egg shell.

I've increased her RC meals, because her plain meat meals are not balanced.  I am adding egg shell calcium, and lamb pancreas glandular, and I have bought some frozen beef liver but have not yet cut it up.

She is also still on the egg yolk lecithin, again, I do not know if eggs and egg products are going to be an issue.

Last Sunday she had her usual raw yolk and actually had a good clean poop on Monday morning so time will tell.  IF chicken is her problem.

I have seen some improvement already since cutting back, then eliminating the chicken.   She's had some fresh blood in her stool, or rather, on the surface of her stool, not IN it.. Which has gotten less frequent when I stopped the chicken.

Since stopping reducing then stopping the chicken she's been having two or three poops a day, single pieces about an inch long, slightly soft, full of fur.

She is not straining to pass these poops. Since stopping the chicken they no longer smell foul. Slippery elm bark is not helpful to her as I mentioned earlier, it makes her stool very sticky and messy, and s.boulardii seems to make things slightly worse as well.

 I've got her on pork bone broth now too.

I am wondering if I ought to double her probiotic for a while, to help her body cope with the change in diet.  She's used to the pork and the beef, but not used to getting so much of it.

I do have an appointment with the vet for Jennie but not until July 30, 9 days away. I needed an after work appointment, is why the delay, and this is not my usual vet, though I have seen her a few times for emergency issues. I don't know her feelings on raw diets, but I am about to find out. :)

If she suddenly got worse of course I would take her right in.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 20, 2018, 08:05:48 PM
My  2cents... change one thing at a time.  :)
You mentioned you feed an oz-ish of canned.  Tell the vet you feed some canned and some raw.  Keep the explanation simple, and see how the vet reacts.   :-\
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on July 20, 2018, 10:26:22 PM
IMO, I don't think it could hurt to increase the probiotic, even if it's just for a week or two.  In addition to the reasons you mentioned, it might help balance things in her gut.

As for the vet, you could just keep it super-simple and say you feed wet food, which technically is true.  Vet will assume you feed canned.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 20, 2018, 11:51:40 PM
IMO, I don't think it could hurt to increase the probiotic, even if it's just for a week or two.  In addition to the reasons you mentioned, it might help balance things in her gut.

As for the vet, you could just keep it super-simple and say you feed wet food, which technically is true.  Vet will assume you feed canned.

That's even better!!!

I THINK they only HAVE to know a pet is fed raw, when it comes to certain kind of blood work.  Pookie?   :)

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2018, 06:59:05 AM
Thanks but I'm sure it's in her records that she is raw fed. :)
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2018, 09:33:40 AM
Thanks but I'm sure it's in her records that she is raw fed. :)

Oh yeah... different vet, but same location.  Pesky records.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2018, 09:40:50 AM
Well, besides, I want to know this vet's views on raw feeding.  I NEED a pro raw vet, if I can find one, for at least Jennie and Queen Eva.  I don't think I can switch Mazy cat, she has such a hard time at the vet as it is.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2018, 09:56:42 AM
I THINK they only HAVE to know a pet is fed raw, when it comes to certain kind of blood work.  Pookie?   :)

Not a clue, sorry.   :-\

Well, besides, I want to know this vet's views on raw feeding.  I NEED a pro raw vet, if I can find one, for at least Jennie and Queen Eva.  I don't think I can switch Mazy cat, she has such a hard time at the vet as it is.

Or at least one that's not "anti-raw/raw is evil."  Good luck!   fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2018, 03:53:34 PM
Well, besides, I want to know this vet's views on raw feeding.  I NEED a pro raw vet, if I can find one, for at least Jennie and Queen Eva.  I don't think I can switch Mazy cat, she has such a hard time at the vet as it is.

It took me YEARS to find a pro-raw vet.  In fact, I didn't find her.  Someone mentioned her name in a Co-op Food group, and DeeDee passed the info on to me. 
I did mention to the vet, that if she just gave a HINT (on her website) that she was pro-raw... my furkids would have been clients much sooner! 
Still no hints on her website.  She has recently started a Facebook page and a Twitter account, so she must want her name "out there." 

My point of all that rambling, a vet that isn't anti-raw might not advertise his/herself as such.  :(
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2018, 05:15:13 PM
There isn't a lot of choice here.  Two local clinics, each with multiple vets. (used to be 4 clinics, but now we only have two) One is a kitty toe chop shop, I wont step foot in the place.

I wish vets would advertise if they are proraw, but maybe there aren't any here!

Other vet clinics involve travel. The next two nearest are 40 minutes away. One I have been to on an emergency basis several times with both Tolly and Mazy cat, many years ago. Haven't had any emergencies in the last few years, thankfully.

Of the other vets aside from the one I use, and the one I am seeing with Jennie on the 30th, one, male, specializes mostly with dogs, one, male, is fresh out of vet school, well, a year or so ago, and when Jennie and I saw him when she had that vestibular episode he said he wasn't against home cooked diets but "didn't know a lot about raw". I just nodded and said "you should look into it".  The third male vet I saw once many years ago when Tolly was still alive, Tolly had what turned out to be his first episode with FORL. Wow, THAT was a LONG time ago.

Since my cats are more used to women than men in their lives I do tend to want to use women, though Jennie doens't seem to care either way.

Jennie had some diarrhea overnight, some time between 2-4 a.m. some out of the box and it (the part out of the box) had some fresh blood in it.  Nothing so far today.  I've decided no Rad Cat for today either, because I don't know, IF chicken is the problem, if egg is going to be a problem for her too.

I never, EVER expected I would expected have a health problem with Jennie. Canned fed since she came here at between 1-2 years old, raw fed by the time she was 7.....

I keep thinking back to her last anal gland expression and wondering if they damaged something in there.  But you know..she's always been a scooter.  Always.

She shows no tenderness or sensitivity at all no matter where I touch her, including her bottom.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 21, 2018, 06:44:33 PM
Always being a scooter.... do you know why?  Maybe the years of scooting did something, and it is just now showing up.   ?

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 21, 2018, 07:57:18 PM
Always being a scooter.... do you know why?  Maybe the years of scooting did something, and it is just now showing up.   ?



I have wondered about that too.  yes, she has always been a scooter and I always assumed it was because of her anal gland trouble, and that, even when they weren't bothering her (such as just after they'd been expressed) it had become an ingrained habit.  But yes I do wonder if this is something to do with her anal glands.

It's also possible she's had a mild chicken (or even poultry) intolerance all along and it's just now developed to a major problem and now that she's off it, she needs time to heal.

Of course I suppose it seems dumb to "wonder" instead of just getting her in sooner, but I want to see this other vet.  Like I said, if the situation becomes urgent, if she starts pouring blood from her bottom or anything, I'll bring her right in and see whoever they give me on an emergency basis.

She hasn't lost any weight.

Tonight just before supper she had a poop.  It was soft but not loose. Light in color, which is probably from the pork.  Furry, as they all are.  And that bit of blood at the end, but not a lot, I really had to press the piece to see it on the paper towel.

I took a chance and gave her an s.boulardii this morning.  Sometimes it seems it doesn't seem to help her, but after that liquid poop over night I thought I'd better try.  I've stopped the Rad Cat, too, as that has egg yolk in it.  Now it's just pork and beef, with egg shell calcium and the pancreas, and tomorrow I'll start introducing the beef liver.

Oh, I've also started cutting it into smaller pieces instead of one big chunk.  Maybe she needs smaller bites to digest it better.

If she really can't have egg yolk either, I am going to have to learn to make my own supplement for her.  The IBD group has recipes.

It's possible there is more than one thing going on, the anal gland thing, and an issue with chicken.

Something else.....Jennie's always been a... frequent groomer, always licking at herself and washing.  Not in any one place, just all over. it's just been....who she is.

never any bare spots or thinning fur at all, just always licking at herself.

Except for the time, you may or may not remember she used to lick her abdomen bare (I called it her pink triangle) when she was on canned, but all that stopped, first it got quite a bit better, the fur grew back but she kept it very short, when I dropped carrageenan containing foods, then it stopped all together when I went raw.

Anyway since stopping the chicken, she is no longer constantly washing. She lies quietly. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on July 21, 2018, 10:02:27 PM
Nothing to add, just listening and sending support and hugs.   Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 22, 2018, 09:44:35 AM
Keeping things updated...Jennie had a tiny poop this morning, two very small skinny pieces of stool.  Firm, little odor, no discernible blood, mostly fur.

It looks like, if this is a chicken/egg intolerance I am going to have to build her diet from scratch.  I will have to find a source of some other kind of egg, and pray she can eat them. It does seem her intolerance is poultry wide rather than just chicken, remember I took her off turkey a while back, and the duck was a disaster, so I wonder if I will be able to get egg into her at all.  Egg contains many essential nutrients including, and especially choline.

I'll be looking for quail eggs I guess.

Edit - darn it even as I was writing that she'd gone down and had a little more.  Exact same size as the one earlier this morning..but this time the end bit had a little blood on it. And it was a bit softer. Still not that foul odor of before, that seems to be gone now thank heavens.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 23, 2018, 12:48:15 AM
Nothing to add, just listening and sending support and hugs.   Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1

Same here.  :)
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 23, 2018, 05:01:28 AM
Jennie stole Queen Eva's Rad Cat venison last night.  I was so frustrated, because I really need to get her off all things poultry to know if this is the problem. Rad Cat contains egg yolk.

  She had a formed but soft and bloody poop this morning.

If she can't have egg yolk I really don't know what I am going to do.  I'm starting to think about canned foods for her, if I can find any that don't contain chicken or other poultry.  That's one thing the UK has that we don't.  More novel protein food options.

I'm looking into Ziwi Peak.  Outrageously expensive, but fed in rotation with, say, one raw meal a day, I might be able to manage it.

They finally got their single protein line going

https://www.ziwipets.com/catalog/ziwi-peak-cat-nutrition/ziwi-peak-moist-cat-food
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on July 23, 2018, 08:01:23 AM
Jennie stole Queen Eva's Rad Cat venison last night.  I was so frustrated, because I really need to get her off all things poultry to know if this is the problem. Rad Cat contains egg yolk.

  She had a formed but soft and bloody poop this morning.

 :(  I hate to say it, but she may need a colonoscopy when she's at the vet, so they can get a better look at what's going on from the inside.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 23, 2018, 11:21:28 AM
:(  I hate to say it, but she may need a colonoscopy when she's at the vet, so they can get a better look at what's going on from the inside.

I was wondering if that was an option, but was afraid to ask. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 23, 2018, 01:11:17 PM
Thanks Pookie.  I never heard of a colonoscopy for a cat, ( I'll look up later) but I am prepared that Jennie is going to need diagnostics of some sort or another.  they won't be done locally (except x rays), there isn't anywhere around here for that kind of thing.  I'll either have to go to Cornell or Latham. I'll choose Latham because it is closer and I know the area (the specialty place is right down the road from where my sister lives)

Jennie..I will do diagnostics on.  She can handle it.  As you know, I will not put Mazy cat through much, if anything like that, but I am not worried about Jennie dealing with it, she can.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on July 23, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
FWIW, my Sweetie Girl had an endoscopy (like a colonoscopy but going in the mouth to see the esophagus and stomach), and a colonoscopy might determine colitis.  I'm glad there's place that's closer in an area you know, if it should come to that.

I'm starting to think about canned foods for her, if I can find any that don't contain chicken or other poultry.  That's one thing the UK has that we don't.  More novel protein food options.

Just tossing this out there as something to think about, IF it turns out she is having an intolerance and you need to go the canned route:  there may be canned dog foods that are novel protein that might be an option.  You'd have to add taurine to the food to make sure she's getting enough, but it's an idea that I stumbled on when I a quick search for cats and colonoscopies, which led to some info. on colitis.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 23, 2018, 03:54:45 PM
So you found that they do colonoscopy on cats?

I've already ordered the Ziwi Peak in venison and lamb.  I need it for emergencies anyway. Since she can't have the Organix now.

I appreciate you checking into things but I would never feed a dog formulation to a cat.  There are many many things different between the nutritional needs of dogs and cats besides taurine.  Whoever is giving that advice should not be!   Hug1 Hug1 Hug1

I am still thinking about the last time she had her anal glads expressed and if they did some damage in some way.  The potential intolerance has been going on for a while, but the blood is new.  I'm wondering how new.  Perhaps it's been since her last anal gland expression but I didn't realize it until she went outside the box with it.

Oh well it's all conjecture.  She's only been off the chicken completely less than a week, and then she had the RC with yolk in it last night which, if the problem is chicken, is just more set back.

As long as she is well in herself, and she is, I am going to stick to the appointment I have. If she needs diagnostics I am going to have to take time off, and so I have to take her out of work hours when ever possible. That's one of the reasons I went with this vet, because she has the later hours at the clinic.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on July 23, 2018, 05:06:08 PM
Quote
So you found that they do colonoscopy on cats?

Yes.  The thread I found was from 2006, so it's been done for a while.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 27, 2018, 10:56:40 PM
JUST tossing this info out to ya...

NutriScan tests for:

Quote
Antigens/Foods being tested are beef, corn, duck, lentil, wheat, soy, cow's milk, lamb, venison, chicken, turkey, and white fish, hen's egg, barley, millet, rice, oatmeal, salmon, rabbit, quinoa, potato, peanut, pork, and sweet potato

NutriScan.org
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 28, 2018, 11:52:03 AM
Thanks for adding the information Lola.  Most of what I've read over the years points to allergen testing being a waste of money, and wow, those kits are expensive, think how much the vet must upcharge too!

I think elimination diets are more useful if food intolerance or food allergy is suspected..and that goes for people too.  But still, it's useful information.

Jennie has been doing much better the past few days, since she passed the 8th day mark with no poultry product of any kind with the exception of the egg shell calcium. Not having anything to replace it yet, I am still using that. 

Until this morning. She has been having a normal poop once a day for the past 3 days, still with blood though.  But the stools were normal, normal size (3 small pieces) and shape, normal firm texture, poop shell with fur inside.  Just the blood on the outside of it. Very little odor.

Then this morning, after her normal 3 piece fur-in-a-shell (with a small bit of blood) poop at 5 am (yes I got up when she did, to check) a few hours later she had more, two more small pieces, and these did have some odor and more blood, with a blob of blood after passing the stool.

I am going to bring her to her appointment fasted, which means I won't be coming home for lunch on Monday. It will be a set back for Mazy cat, but it's the only way.  I can't come home, feed Mazy cat and Queen Eva and not Jennie, and I want Jennie to be fasted for blood work and x rays.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 28, 2018, 01:05:53 PM
For those that might be reading this thread:

Nutriscan is a test one can order directly and do at home.  No extra vet charge, unless a person WANTS to involve their vet. 
I pay from 200 to 300 hundred for blood work, so this test is in the normal range (IMHO) for testing. 

No waiting 8 to 12 weeks, after eliminating something from a pet's diet.  This test will give a person the info needed in two weeks.  Less time and less guess work. 

Dr. Jean Dodds DVM is the founder of Nutriscan - Boatload of credentials can be found here: http://www.nutriscan.org/knowledge-center/w-jean-dodds-dvm/

This link also provides some case study info, that I personally found interesting.  Others might also.   http://www.nutriscan.org/case-studies/gastrointestinal-case-studies/pet-digestive-issues/

I don't now about your vet, but the two vets I go to would likely request testing that would add up to much more then $300 bucks. 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 28, 2018, 03:08:49 PM
Thanks for clarifying. I misunderstood the link.

 I'll start reading.

Have you done this Lola?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on July 28, 2018, 03:57:44 PM


I don't now about your vet, but the two vets I go to would likely request testing that would add up to much more then $300 bucks. 


Yes of course there will be expensive diagnostic testing.  But that will have to be done regardless of a Nutriscan test.  Blood work is important, no matter what the symptoms.  X rays will also be useful either diagnosing or eliminating certain things.

And I can't put these things off for 3 more weeks while I order a test and wait for results, you know?

After reading more on the web page I no longer am dismissing it out of hand, because I now understand this is not an allergen test, which is what I misunderstood before.

I think the Nutriscan deserves it's own thread don't you? Rather than soon being buried in this one.

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 28, 2018, 06:00:09 PM

Have you done this Lola?

No, I haven't.  But I would, if needed.  I trust Dr. Dodds.  IMHO it COULD eliminate possible expensive testing, and elimination work on your end.  Blood work NOT included in that statement.    :)

I was just throwing the info out there for you.  I DEFINITELY wasn't suggesting you put off Jennie's vet visit!

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on July 31, 2018, 10:09:55 PM
Any updates, concerning the vet visit? 
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 01, 2018, 05:49:59 AM
Yes, but havne't had the energy to write it all out yet. I like the vet and she either already has some knowledge of raw and home cooked feeding, or did some researching prior to our appointment.

Jennie had blood work (my choice, it's been 9 months, and since she was fasted I figured just do it now, instead of at her annual) and the stool has been sent out for  testing for certain bacteria, parasites (not the common ones already tested for ) and so on. Urine was drawn as well, since Jennie had a full bladder.

Vet says because the blood is fresh, on the surface, notably the end, of the stool the problem is likley an irritation in the rectal area, NOT anything in her digestive tract (not in stomach or intestinal) which is good news.

Her opinion is, since things got sliglty better after stopping the chicken (which carries a heavy bacteria \load) is that the irritation is being caused by bacteria, Jennie, for whatever reason is not handling the bacteria load in the raw diet.

While waiting for results, her suggestion is to lightly cook the surfaces of Jennie's meat before serving. I said I would, but I haven't started yet because I havne't quite figured out how to work it into the routine.

She also feels that Jennie should be okay with cooked egg yolk, so I think I'm going to go ahead and get some Alnutrin to try with Jennie. I really really don't want to mess with following a recipe and making my own balancing supplement.

There is more I want to say about this, but I don't have time now.

Thanks for asking/reminding me to update.  Hug1 Hug1

EDIT I poached her pork this morning.  She went crazy over it, of course because it is something different.  Jennie craves variety and pork and beef day in and day out, and no EZc, must be getting pretty boring to her. Cooking it changes the odor and texture. I won't be cooking her lunch.

By the way I had hoped for an x ray on Monday too, but vet did not feel it was necessary.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 01, 2018, 08:19:08 AM
Thanks for the update!

Quote
By the way I had hoped for an x ray on Monday too, but vet did not feel it was necessary.

I'm not sure it would have helped since x-rays mainly show bones/calcium/hard areas.  Soft tissues, not so well.  Were you hoping for a barium series so her GI tract would show more clearly on the x-ray?

I'm glad Jennie liked the poached pork!    thumbsup1  Will you be increasing her probiotic (if you haven't already) to help with the bacteria issue?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 01, 2018, 01:17:09 PM
I wanted an x ray to see if she has any malformations. I was reading about it after researching colitis, as one of the causes.  x rays were recommended in the diagnostics, where I was reading.

Jennie doesn't squat to poop, she stands up and I wondered if her issues are being caused by some malformation.

Vet did not think that was likely, she is focused on bacterial irritation.  I have been thinking about changing Jennie's probiotic (and s.boulardii), the one I use for Jennie and Queen Eva was long ago recommended to me by the IBD group creators, but they no longer recommend it as the top of the line in helpfulness, there are others they think are better. Same with the s.boulardii. Problem is, their recommendations are always changing, so I don't bother to rush out and make these changes everything they decide something else is better than what they used to say was good..

When I increased the one I am giving her now, she had a very bloody poop the next morning.  I have increased the s.boulardii by half a capsule.

And I am not going to start changing too many things at once for Jennie.. For now I am gradually changing her over to cooked.  Aside form calcium, liver/pancreas and taurine, her diet is not currently balanced.  No omega 3 and no choline.  I don't want to do it this way much longer, but the results of the PCR (poop) won't be in until next week.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 03, 2018, 12:07:19 AM
 Thanks for the update. Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 03, 2018, 05:50:47 AM
Jennie is still having those multiple poops a day, yesterday 3, but up until sometime overnight, they aren't having any odor, seem almost normal except for the blood.  But some time overnight she has had a very very foul one, no blood on it that I could see, but the smell is still lingering hours later.

The only changes have been cooked pork two mornings in a row (raw the rest of the time), and last night I tried giving her s.boulardii and pancreas a 1/2 hour before the meal.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 04, 2018, 08:53:45 AM
Jennie really loves her cooked pork meal.  It gives her that variety she so craves.  I am still only poaching her breakfast pork.

Everything else remains the same.  She is still passing tiny bloody poops 3 times a day. Totaled up the amount would be a normal sized stool for a raw fed cat, but why is she passing them 3 times a day instead of all at once?  What causes that?

First of course, we need the results of the PCR fecal.

Along with muscle meat (pork and beef) she is getting the appropriate amount of beef liver, and lamb pancreas glandular (capsule form) for organs, egg shell calcium in the appropriate amount per meal, and taurine with the cooked meal.

She is getting a whole s.boulardii with breakfast, and a half with her bed time meal.

Natural Factors  double strength probiotic at bed time.

Pork bone broth with breakfast and supper meals.

She will need further balancing soon, but I am afraid to try her on egg yolk yet, to see if she can tolerate the Alnutrin.

Have to wait for the PCR results, then move forward.

I can't stand the idea of her feeling any discomfort.  It seems to me she shows a hesitation each time before heading down to the litter box now, but I could simply be projecting my feelings.  I asked the vet about it, and she said she probably doesn't even notice..meaning no she is not in discomfort when she passes these stools, but I can't help worrying about it.  Vet said probably no more likely to cause her discomfort that a human with hemorrhoids, is how she put it.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 04, 2018, 01:39:32 PM
I'm feeling very annoyed with myself that I did not insist on the x ray while we were there.  There we were, with her all fasted, it would have only taken a couple of minutes, and I wouldn't be sitting here worrying about blockages.

Because I remember now that I read that passing little stools like this frequently, can be an indication of a blockage. This is all that can get past the blockage, in other words.

When I talk to her about the test results I will bring it up again.  But now of course it involves more time, more stress for Jennie.  I'll have to drop her off in the morning, fasted, or skip coming home for lunch and rush home and bring her back in, again.

WHY don't vets EVER LISTEN to the people who know their pets best?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 05, 2018, 02:09:34 AM
I feel for ya.  Vets give explanations that make sense at the time.  It isn't until we get home, that we re-think and sometimes over-think.   Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 06, 2018, 05:02:39 PM
 Campylobacter is the diagnosis. Vet wants to put Jennie on erythromycin, if she can find it in cat dose. Can't understand why Queen Eva doesn't have it too, or even Mazy cat (different diet) since they share litter boxes but Jennie is the only one with symptoms.

Vet says her immune system is just not as hearty, maybe.

 Vet says the frequent pooping is caused by the inflammation and blood, causing her colon to contract more than normal.

(edit) It has just occurred to me that Jennie is the only cat who ever ate chicken wings. I bet she got it from them. Meaning - as an explanation why Queen Eva did not get it. Queen Eva never ate chicken wings so if it was the wings that were affected by the bacteria, Queen Eva would not be affected.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 07, 2018, 07:57:25 PM
Jennie is loving the cooked meat.  I cook the chunks in a little water on a low heat, just enough for each surface to be cooked.  It makes a lovely broth which Jennie goes crazy over.  She's been missing her EZc gravy with every meal. She gets bone broth with two of her meals each day, but it's only a half tablespoon with water dded, she gets that with her calcium and other supplements, including the pancreas. The broth from cooking the meat gives the bone broth sauces added flavor, and there is enough to add to her two smaller meals too, lunch and bed time. Those are the only raw she gets for now.

She's getting 2/3 cooked at the moment.

I had been waiting for the vet's call regarding the antibiotics after I got home from work and by the time I realized she wasn't going to call it was too late, they'd closed. Sigh of exasperation.

I've started Queen Eva on a 1/2 capsule of s.boulardii a day, as added bacteria fighting power in her intestines. Mazy already takes it daily.

No one else is showing any signs of having picked it up, including myself.  Jennie's obviously had this a while so I guess if we were susceptible we'd know it by now. Of course I have always used good hygiene, with litter boxes and meat prep anyway.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 07, 2018, 10:08:31 PM
Campylobacter is the diagnosis. Vet wants to put Jennie on erythromycin, if she can find it in cat dose. Can't understand why Queen Eva doesn't have it too, or even Mazy cat (different diet) since they share litter boxes but Jennie is the only one with symptoms.

Vet says her immune system is just not as hearty, maybe.

 Vet says the frequent pooping is caused by the inflammation and blood, causing her colon to contract more than normal.

(edit) It has just occurred to me that Jennie is the only cat who ever ate chicken wings. I bet she got it from them. Meaning - as an explanation why Queen Eva did not get it. Queen Eva never ate chicken wings so if it was the wings that were affected by the bacteria, Queen Eva would not be affected.

I'm so glad you're getting answers!  That's pawsome!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 10, 2018, 04:24:53 PM
Oh no Poor Jennie!  We've started the erythromycin.  The compounded liquid is "chicken flavor" and has to be mixed with the powder, then 1 ml is given every 8 hours for five days. 

When I first opened the liquid part Jennie got sniffing and said yum that smells good.  I thought oh yay this will be a breeze.  I put the mixed together potion in a little cooked pork and handed it over.  Jennie took a quick lick and oh dear!  I almost wish I'd been videoing but that wouldn't have been nice, to get that face on camera I guess.

She was quite shocked that something that smelled so good tasted so awful!

She tried a number of times, because apparently is stil smells good, but she couldn't get past the taste.

I tried various enhancements, forti flora even Parmesan cheese, but finally she gave up and said no.

Then I had to give it to her by syringe. I hate giving liquids I worry so much about aspiration.  And I think she did breathe some in, because she's coughed a few times after.

But the worst of course was her reaction, she jerked back and the drool started immediately.  A long rope of it came out as she tried to run away from the awful taste in her mouth and I hurried after her trying to get the meat in her mouth.  I caught up with her on the bed (did not manage to catch the rope of drool, that went on the sheet) but managed to calm her down enough to give her the meat, which she ate.

She coughed a few more hacks (you know how you do when something goes down the wrong pipe).  I finally caved and gave her a tiny blob of mayo.  I hate to use the mayo for this, I hope it doesn't ruin mayo for her (it's the nail trim treat) but we've got 14 more doses to go.

She's already forgiven and forgotten, she's here looking for more mayo.  funny2

Anyway, she's already doing better from the s.boulardii treatment.  Eventually the therapeutic dose of s.boulardii would take care of the bacteria in her guts, but I don't want her to have to wait that long. I want it cleared out quickly so she can get back to her raw meat.

She loves the pork cooked, but does not love the beef cooked.  She eats it, but she doesn't love it.

Once she's all back to normal I will re introduce EZcomplete, since it does seem it isn't a chicken intolerance after all.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 10, 2018, 07:20:09 PM
Poor Jennie!  Xing paws that she's back to normal soon!   fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 11, 2018, 06:02:44 AM
Thanks Pookie.  Jennie went 24 hours between poops! And the next poop was normal! Maybe a trace of blood but perfect in all other respects. I could tell she was feeling better yesterday.  It's a shame now that she's doing better to put her through the antibioitcs but I want to be sure to completely eradicate the bacteria.

I mean, it's clear the s.boulardii is helping, but being the worrier I am, I do think this is the best way to go.

Jennie's middle of the night dose of antibiotic went much better.  She knew what to expect, for one thing, and I was better prepared with the before and after.

I gave her a little canned and she was still licking her chops over it when I shot the liquid antibiotic down her throat.  Before she could gag and drool I wiped mayonnaise on her mouth. She licked the mayo and started purring instead.

 That was at 1:30 a.m.  funny2

It's unfortunate but there is no getting around the middle of the night doses.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 11, 2018, 03:46:45 PM
11 more doses to go.  Jennie and I both are becoming pros.  She hates it, but she knows what's coming so it's not quite a shock.  She'd food driven so even though she knows that tiny taste of canned food is leading to the nasty stuff, she accepts the offering, and allows the squirt down her throat.  then I quick grab her again and put the dish back under her nose and wipe a little mayo on her mouth. she finishes the little bit of canned, licks her chops and all is well.  She did aspirate again this morning, but only a couple of coughs to clear it out.  This time, just now, it all went where it was supposed to go.  Whew.

AND...no bloody bits of poop in the litter box at all today, so far, just her normal poop this morning. Probably too soon for the antibiotics to have kicked in but the s.boulardii was doing the job to keep her going.  I'm keeping her on it, and her probiotic of course, to guard against any diarrhea from the antibiotic.  Once it's over I'll have to keep her on a maintenance dose of s.boulardii now I think.

It has been recommended to me to put her on a course of poop pills after the antibiotic to reset her gut flora.  We'll see. That's pilling her 2 times a day for a month, not sure I need to put her through that.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 11, 2018, 05:08:12 PM
 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 12, 2018, 07:21:52 AM
Last night I was so disappointed when Jennie, after having a pee, had another poop. A small single stool, very very bloody on the outside of it. After a few minute of thought I realized that, this must be the blood that she was passing in little blobs of poop before, so it accumulated? Maybe that's right, anyway.

Since all this started, Jennie always passes a stool after peeing. So she seems reluctant to pee very often which of course troubles me as well. (Her urine culture was fine for everything) So that one time she went 24 hours without pooping, it's important to note she also went 24 hours without peeing.

Now some good news.  This morning she peed again...and had NO POOP after!

10 more doses of antibiotic to go.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 14, 2018, 01:33:42 PM
I had to Google Campylobacter. 

Quote
You become infected with Campylobacter by taking in the bacteria through your mouth. This can be by: eating contaminated, undercooked meat, especially chicken. drinking contaminated water or unpasteurised milk.

JUST throwing this out there...
A few of my cats can't and/or won't eat grocery store chicken.  Doesn't matter if it is Organic, or fresh out of the case. 

They can eat chicken from other sources... Hare-Today, My Pet Carnivore, and Raw Feeding Miami.  It has crossed my mind the companies I mentioned... they chop and grind knowing it is going to be fed raw.  Maybe they have better standards.   :-\

Anyway.... hope things get better with Jennie VERY soon!   
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 16, 2018, 06:33:24 AM
I remember you saying that before and I agree with you, but to feed enough variety, I didn't feel I had any choice. I can't order from HT, I don't have the space to store it.

I don't think it was the chicken, Queen Eva is not sick.  I think it was the wings. That's the only thing Jennie was eating that no one else was eating. But the vet agrees with you about feeding raw chicken.  :)

Poor Jennie was so relieved when she realized she wasn't going to have that awful stuff shot down her throat at breakfast, though she took it like a pro.  She's done with the course of antibiotics, and in fact I went over one dose.

There is no improvement in her bowel issue, she is still having bloody poop twice a day.  Small, slightly soft, but formed, but bloody. I called the vet last night but she was already gone.  I've asked that she call me this afternoon after 4:30.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 16, 2018, 08:24:31 AM
There is no improvement in her bowel issue, she is still having bloody poop twice a day.  Small, slightly soft, but formed, but bloody. I called the vet last night but she was already gone.  I've asked that she call me this afternoon after 4:30.

 :(

 fingerscrossed  The vet has a better idea of what's going on.  I'm thinking you're right about Jennie needing an x-ray.  It certainly couldn't hurt at this point -- if nothing else, it rules out some things.

grouphug
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 16, 2018, 01:26:48 PM
Did your vet mention how soon you should see an improvement?  Is she isolated from the other cats now?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 16, 2018, 03:44:51 PM
Jennie is not isolated.

She's had this for months, while I messed around with food intolerance trials. The other two show no symptoms but I have increased Mazy cat's s.boulardii and put Queen Eva on a small dose, just to help them fight any bacteria they may have picked up.

I have spoken to the vet.  The next step is to retest the poop.  Vet feels it will show negative, and she just needs time for the irritation to heal. I am to continue cooking her food.  I wish Jennie could have slippery elm bark I am sure it would help her, except for her, it makes things worse. I don't know what else I could give her to sooth her intestinal tract.

If the poop is negative,  and there is no improvement as time goes on, we go to the next level of diagnostics, vet says ultrasound.

If the test is still positive, we put her on the Tylosin.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 16, 2018, 04:10:34 PM
Thanks for the update.   Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 23, 2018, 05:48:09 AM
No change in Jennie. Really I'm starting to wonder if the antibiotic was actually what it was supposed to be.  I mean, erythromycin is the treatment of choice for this bacteria, and there was no change, no change at all, when she was on it.  That doesn't make any sense, does it?

I managed to get new samples in on Tuesday, so I won't hear any more until next week.  Jennie is on plain cooked pork only.  1 capsule of s.boulardii a day.  If I go over 1 she gets worse. Her appetite is fine, her activity is normal.

Queen Eva and Mazy cat continue to show no signs of illness thank goodness. Please keep the vibes coming for that to continue.

I wish I could sterilize this disgusting apartment somehow. I want to rip up the filthy carpet, but then I'd be left with bare particle board and heaven knows what else (whatever has soaked through over the years).  I don't even think I am physically capable of ripping up the carpet.

I wash Jennie's bedding almost daily, heavy on the bleach.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 23, 2018, 04:27:44 PM
:(  I am sorry.  I sure was hoping this was going to be a good update.   Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 23, 2018, 05:31:17 PM
 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 23, 2018, 05:39:34 PM
I've started Jennie back on the EZcomplete.  She's lost weight this week and I need to get her balanced, it's either that or canned.  Since there was no improvement after taking her OFF the EZc, it follows that the chicken liver and egg yolk and egg shell in the EZc was not causing her any problems.

(edit) starting very slowly with the EZc return) I am still cooking her pork.

I am wondering more and more if the compounded antibiotic was dosed inadequately some how. Erythromycin is specific for this bacteria, and there was absolutely no improvement while she was on it.

If she still tests positive she'll be going on Tylosin.  If not, the next step is ultrasound, and I am also going to order the "poo pills" for her.

https://www.animalbiome.com/collections/microbiome/products/fecal-microbiota-transplant-pill

Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 24, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
When does she go in to be re-tested?  Or did she already and I missed it?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 24, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
I brought new samples in on Tuesday.  It takes a week.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 25, 2018, 08:28:42 AM
OH HAPPY DAY!!!

Jennie's culture came back negative. The infection is gone.  In addition, Jennie had two small poop episodes yesterday (both after pee) and they both seemed to not be bloody though I wasn't sure and didn't trust my eyes,

 BUT since then she has peed twice (last night and this morning) with no pushing out bloody bits of stool afterward.

Vet had a long chat with me this morning about not feeding raw diets. She had a few horror stories to share regarding puppies, but I didn't listen to them very carefully. I told her I would continue to cook Jennie's for now, but the other two were going to remain on raw. She warned me Mazy cat is getting older and should be on a cooked diet.  I said I went to raw because of her issues. Vet said she had no problem with home prepared diets, she just thinks they should be cooked but "you're going to do what you want" and I said Yeah, I am.

She can add Jennie's campylobacter saga to her anti-raw repertoire now. funny2

I do like this vet just as much as the other, and I'm glad she is at least open to home prepared food.  But I just don't agree with her about the risk of raw feeding.

However I am going to give Jennie's system a good long  rest from bacteria exposure for now.  Ezc can be used with cooked as well as raw meats and Jennie is quite enjoying the cooked pork.

Mazy cat and Queen Eva will be so happy to have deep filled litter boxes again. Since I have to dump so often,I've only been putting a thin layer in the boxes.

Now, even if Jennie does have more icky poops, at least I know they are not contagious.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on August 25, 2018, 01:08:46 PM
OH HAPPY DAY!!!

Jennie's culture came back negative. The infection is gone.  In addition, Jennie had two small poop episodes yesterday (both after pee) and they both seemed to not be bloody though I wasn't sure and didn't trust my eyes,

 BUT since then she has peed twice (last night and this morning) with no pushing out bloody bits of stool afterward.

YAY!  multistars multistars multistars multistars

 fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed fingerscrossed  The good news continues . . .
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 25, 2018, 02:21:32 PM
Thanks Pookie.  I can tell she feels better, I noticed it last night.  Not that she was showing any signs of not feeling good, you know how subtle cats are.  But last night I really noticed a difference, and today it is even more noticeable.  Just an....air..about her that's different.

Just before lunch she had a pee and one of those small soft poops after, first poop in 25 hours, and I can't see any sign of blood in it at all.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 26, 2018, 07:28:39 AM
She's back to little bloody stools with every pee.  :'(

So I'll stop the EZc again, get the poop pills and try the Alnutrin for balancing.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on August 27, 2018, 05:04:12 AM
This morning Jennie had a normal formed poop! Normal size, normal texture!  Still bloody though.  But I have to believe the improvement is going forward. 

When I start the poo pills I may run another thread just for that along with updating this one if no one objects. It may help if someone is looking for info on just that.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on August 27, 2018, 01:38:49 PM
There is no thread limit here.  ;)
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 01, 2018, 08:24:22 PM
Jennie's progress remains like a yoyo. I have the poop pills but haven't started them yet, have been attempting to get guidance on their FB page, and the advice is all over the place and conflicting, so I'm taking it all in and just making it up as I go along. I was advised to stabilize her first, when I thought that was the whole point of this form of resetting the microbiome. I was advised to give her fiber to bulk up her stool, with psyllium.

Jennie can't tolerate SEB or psyllium.  The only fiber she can use is pumpkin but I am not convinced that is the way to go for her. Other suggestions were to give her prebiotics.  Keep her on a therapeutic dose of s.boulardii, but stop the regular probiotics a few days before starting the pills. Not necessary to balance the meals before starting the pills. Don't worry about the imbalanced meals for now.

So I've read through all of that and am choosing my own way.  1st. 

I stopped ALL probiotics a week ago, including the s.boulardii.  It was only making things worse. Since then she is having probably mushier stools than before, but less blood on them.  When I increased the s.boulardii to therapeutic dose the blood became much more.  Every time I tried to increase it the blood got worse, so I stopped the s.boulardii.

Since it is best to make only once change at a time, I waited a few days before beginning the new calcium supplement. I had stopped the egg shell calcium because it seemed to cause more irritation,  She's on calcium carbonate now.  After having her on the calcium carbonate for a few days (so now, just cooked pork and calcium carbonate) I started the Alnutrin.

For 3 meals a day she's now getting the cooked pork and calcium carbonate, and the supper meal is now the full dose of Alnutrin for that meal (I asked them how to calculate per meal).

She doens't like the Alnutrin much plus she is getting very tired of cooked pork. So, I give her a tiny bit of ziwi peak venison (canned food) into her cooked pork juices and Alnutrin to help her eat it.  She likes that.

I've had to start using forti flora to help her finish her meals because she is just so tired of cooked pork.

So starting yesterday I've started keep out a sliver or two of meat and giving it raw along with the cooked.

As I increase the Alnutrin meals, the next step will be to add ACV again I think.  That can be her prebiotic/fiber.

I've been told to "relax" and "don't worry" about the non-balanced meals but telling someone with an anxiety disorder to "relax" and don't worry" is like telling someone with depression to "snap out of it". I don't find those kind of comments useful even though I know they are well meaning.

Jennie will be back on balanced meals, and probably back to at least 50% raw, before I begin the poop pills.

Well if anyone can make sense of this garbled update I will be impressed.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on September 01, 2018, 10:37:06 PM
GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes

Maybe it's time for the ultrasound . . . ?
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 02, 2018, 08:35:48 AM
Thanks Pookie.  Not yet, though I am not adverse to doing it eventually if needed.  I want to give her body time to heal.

  The vet indicated it would take a while though she didn't say how long. Her only directive was to not feed raw, ever. But her only reasoning is that "older cats can't handle it". This I know to not be true and Jennie will be raw fed again. 

The antibiotics were very strong and harsh, on top of everything already being messed up inside.

Right now I just want to get her back to a balanced diet, cooked, raw or mixed, I want her balanced.

I started the Alnutrin on her breakfast meal today, so if that goes well for the next few days she will be 2/3 of the way to full balance.

Wait..not quite.  I haven't started adding the liver in again yet. Once she is fully transitioned to Alnutrin, then I wil start adding the liver.

Edit:  While I was typing all that Jennie went down and had a small perfectly formed poop with no discernible blood.  It was firm on the outside which is also progress, still a bit mushy inside when squished.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 03, 2018, 07:48:34 AM
Last night Jennie staged a revolt.  She flat out refused to eat any more cooked pork.  No matter what I put on it, she said no.  I even tried pureeing it in the blender.  She tried it, she really tried, but the answer was still NO.

So Jennie is back on full raw as of this morning.  Still pork only, but I had hoped to start adding in a little beef liver soon. I better wait and see how she does on full raw. She is still having those frequent small poops (the irritation causes them, makes her feel like she has to go all the time) but I am seeing much less blood. Two out of three in a day now are little or no blood.

I had started adding pieces of raw to the cooked 2 days ago, but going full raw is kind of sudden.  Maybe I will try to cook her bedtime meal. On the other hand I might just see how she does. She is 2/3 Alnutrin now. I am still using a little of the canned Ziwi Peak venison to enhance the Alnutrin. The Alnutrin is calculated by the weight of the plain muscle meat.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 05, 2018, 06:34:13 PM
Jennie is showing definite improvement, her last two poops (early this morning and sometime before I came home for lunch) were formed firm and no blood.

 But as of tonight she has refused to eat any pork at all.  She's always needed a lot of variety and has been getting more and more reluctant to eat it, until half way through her supper tonight, just like with the cooked, she said No. and I can't blame her for wanting something else.  I'd only just started adding a little beef, so I hope she does okay on it. She'll have it for her bedtime meal tonight and maybe she'll eat pork for breakfast so I can at least slow it down.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 06, 2018, 06:06:05 AM
She had a bit of diarrhea this morning, but it was to be expected with the sudden addition of beef. She's had beef before of course, but except for tiny pieces here and there, not for a long while, since it's been all pork.  I hope she will eat pork this morning, but if she doesn't it's either the Ziwi venison canned or raw beef, not sure which to use.

EDIT

OH HAPPY DAY Jennie ate the blended pork and beef meal. It makes me so sad that she has to be coaxed to come for meals when she's always done her hurry up and feed me song and dance. I miss that so much!

Jennie is still on 2/3 Alnutrin, I think over the weekend I will increase that to full Alnutrin, then start introducing the beef liver next week.  Once she is on fully balanced meals, hopefully pork and beef and liver and Alnutrin, I will begin the poop pills.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 07, 2018, 06:32:39 AM
Getting Jennie to eat the pork and beef is an on going challenge. This morning I remembered some freeze dried beef hearts I bought a while back kept in reserve for emergencies.  Well if this isn't an emergency I don't know what is!  I hate to add yet another new thing to her diet so quickly but I've got to keep her eating.  this morning a bit of beef heart sprinkled over everything had her hoovering it all up in her old style (pork and beef combined).

Since it's something she's never had before EVER, maybe it won't lose it's charm as quickly.  I've been using forti flora mostly but I hate using that stuff, and I've had to add more and more and more.

Her stools are still soft and frequent (since adding the beef so quickly, before that they were starting to firm up, so I have hope they will again as her body adjusts) but I am not seeing any blood!  I've put her back on the probiotic during all these diet changes.  Before I start the poop pills I will have to stop them again. (When doing the poop pills no other probiotic should be used)
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 07, 2018, 06:01:58 PM
Good news and bad news

Jennie's last two little poops were formed again, the bad news is the blood is back.

Here is the problem I suspect.  I put her back on the probiotic to help her cope with the sudden changes in the diet (jumping right back into almost full beef, plus the addition of freeze dried beef heart, today)

The probiotic is doing the job on firming, but, for some reason is causing irritation leading to blood.  I don't know why this is so, but I do remember it before, any time I tried to increase the probiotic (or the s.boulardii) the blood gets worse.

Tonight Jennie ate a full meal of beef with no enhancements of any kind. Including her Alnutrin (well still with the tiny bit of Ziwi to help the gravy flavor)

She also had Alnutrin at lunch beef and pork, but there was a few bits of the beef heart added.

Bed time wil be beef and pork again, also with Alnutrin, also with the beef heart.

After today I will stop the probiotic again. (I am not counting the Forti Flora as probiotic. It was being used as enhancement only, any probiotic benefit will have long since been expired, if there was any to begin with, FF is not a very good probiotic).

A lot of changes a bit too quickly, so now I will slow down a little..and aim for adding the liver maybe starting Monday.  So, by next weekend she should be fully balanced with (hopefully) two proteins beef and pork, the freeze dried beef heart as enhancement, the beef liver and the Alnutrin for balancing.

No more probiotic after today.

I am aiming for Columbus Day weekend to start the poop pills.  I am off on Friday the 5th so I wil give her the first one I think Thursday night and will have all day Friday to observe her. I wil be gone a long day on Saturday so I may start slow and skip a day and give the next dose Saturday night, then Sunday night.

it is advised to start with one a day working up to twice a day but many go even slower than that. I may even start every other for a week.  We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 07, 2018, 06:03:37 PM
By the way, in case there is any confusion, Jennie is eating thumb sized chunks.  When i say, for instance "beef and pork combined" I mean a mix of chunks of both proteins.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on September 07, 2018, 09:48:47 PM
Nothing to add, just listening and sending support and GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes  Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 08, 2018, 09:08:42 AM
Yep, definitely the probiotic causing the blood as it is back fully again.  Well I'll try not to feel bad for trying it again, because now I know.  However it did have the desired result of firming up the stool during the sudden addition of beef and beef heart.  I'll add the liver slowly enough she won't need the probiotic.

Now that she is on the Alnutrin and raw her coat is getting nicer again.  When she was on the cooked pork and nothing else her coat was getting rough and flaky. Raw is so much better.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 09, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
Nothing to add, just listening and sending support and GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes  Hug1 Hug1 Hug1 Hug1

Thanks Pookie.

Jennie is starting to hang around a bit more and be interested in food, and this morning she even sang a little bit! bananamiddlechild

She did need a little help to finish her breakfast, leaving one piece of pork and one piece of beef, I used the FD beef heart to help her finish it up.

I have to remember that Jennie prefers larger chunks to many small ones, I keep forgetting and making too many small ones.

Sometime over night or early morning she had a pee and more poop which was fully formed.  Still bloody, but we're going back in the right direction.  Now last time it took several days after I stopped the probiotics before the blood started disappearing. This time she was only on it 3 days before I realized it was the problem.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 15, 2018, 07:04:24 AM
I called the vet to start setting up diagnostics.  She isn't..worse..but not better either.  Poops are formed but still bloody and she is still having a lot of irritation making her feel like she has to go.  Vet hasn't called me back yet.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on September 15, 2018, 11:02:19 PM
Thanks for the update!   fingerscrossed that you get an appointment soon!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 17, 2018, 03:59:17 PM
Jennie is going in for an x ray tomorrow.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 18, 2018, 04:29:28 PM
Jennie's x rays dind't show anything serious such as blockages or masses.  The only odd thing (according to the vet) was gas bubbles in her stool, which, vet says, indicates some sort of digestive problem. These would be stools resulting from canned food, as she's been ojn mostly caned for the last 2 days.

Nothing that would show a possible cause for the bloody stool.  I've made Jennie's appointment with the internal medicine specialist, it's not until October 26.

Not sure how to proceed, did ask vet her opinion on the FMT..asked her to think about it and look into it before giving me her opinion.

Vet still seems to think the blood is irritation, small ulcerations in her digestive tract that need more time to heal.

I wish Jennie could take slippery elm bark I am sure that's what she needs, but it makes things worse for her.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on September 18, 2018, 05:36:33 PM
Good to have an answer, as far as no blockages or masses.  Hope you find a definite explanation soon!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 19, 2018, 05:49:47 AM
I've put Jennie back on bone broth, if she will eat it. It's the pork broth I made for her. I'm not happy with her eating so much canned, though she loves it, her poops are clear the room smelly on it.  So I'm going back to just using a small amount to enhance the Alnutrin.  She won't eat chunks of meat at all any more so I do wonder if her teeth are starting to bother her a little.

I'm going to begin adding turkey breast back in and reducing the beef, gradually going off the beef for a bit to see if the irritation is less, with no beef.

Jennie is on fully balanced meals again, and I may decide to go ahead with the FMT (poop pills) since the specialist appointment is so far off. But one change at a time.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on September 21, 2018, 01:18:28 PM
I know you keep this thread going for your own notes.  BUT.... I am reading.  HeadButt
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 21, 2018, 03:43:26 PM
I know you keep this thread going for your own notes.  BUT.... I am reading.  HeadButt

Thanks for letting me know. I post for myself but also for others who may benefit and others who know and care about Jennie./ It's nice to know you are reading, sometimes I feel very alone with this. Without vet support, issues like this can be scary.

I'm starting Jennie on the poop pills. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on September 21, 2018, 10:03:54 PM
I know you keep this thread going for your own notes.  BUT.... I am reading.  HeadButt

What Lola said.  :)  GoodVibes

 fingerscrossed that all goes well with the poop pills!  GoodVibes GoodVibes
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 24, 2018, 05:12:41 AM
https://www.animalbiome.com/products/kittybiome-feline-gut-microbiome-restoration-supplement

I have started Jennie on the poop pills. I am starting very slow, 1 capsule every 36 hours at first.  She had her first pill Friday morning. When I came home for lunch tehre was a poop from her as usual (still going 2-3 or more times a day) Part of it was her usual formed but soft bit with blood.  The other part was much softer but NO BLOOD. I felt was welling of hope.

Her next pill was Saturday night and she seemed to have a tummy ache for a few hours after.  Sunday morning she had her usual bloody poop, and then antoher episode of just a bit of blood pushed out.

Then she went 24 hours!! with no poop.  Even when she peed, no poop.  I didn't see if she tried (the irritation makes her feel like she has to go so is always trying to push more poop out)

So she's had 2 pills and is due another this morning.  This morning, 24 hours after her last poop she had a small formed poop, but FIRM, not soft.  Still bloody.

By the way, I did ask the vet about the FMT process.  She "didn't think it was appropriate for Jennie". I suggested she look more into it before giving me her opinion.

It's too early to know of course, this may just be a slight variation, as Jennie has had them before.

EDIT  An hour later another small poop, mushy, but less blood.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on September 24, 2018, 04:40:47 PM
When I got home for lunch Jennie was just finishing up in the litter box with a pee and a poop.  This was one of those, that I am beginning to think of as post poop pill poops, it was mushier than usual, but I didn't see any sign of blood.  Not obvious blood any way. That would have been 6 1/2 hours after the poop pill.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on October 23, 2018, 05:50:57 AM
Jennie's appointment with the internal medicine specialist is Friday.  There's been no improvement and this week she's gotten slightly worse.  She is on an all canned diet at the moment, keeping her weight on, but the bloody poo 5 times a day must be taking a toll on her. She is on no supplements, because anything I try, even after one tiny dose, makes things worse. I stopped the poo pills after 4 doses. I don't know if I will try again with them.  I just want to know what's going on inside her.

She's eating Ziwi Peak venison and Organix chicken. Neither are ideal, both have irritating ingredients.  the Ziwi has chick peas and the Organix has peas. But I have to keep her eating.
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on October 23, 2018, 05:17:58 PM
Hope you get some answers Friday!
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Pookie on October 23, 2018, 09:41:08 PM
Hope you get some answers Friday!

What Lola said!  GoodVibes  fingerscrossed
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Lola on October 25, 2018, 01:59:51 PM
I'll be thinking of you two tomorrow!   Hug1
Title: Re: Jennie developing an intolerance to beef?
Post by: Middle Child on October 27, 2018, 09:51:47 AM
I split this topic under a new heading but I didn't realize I wasn't going to be able to MOVE the new thread to the correct section.

The new thread is here

http://parenting-furkids.com/index.php?topic=6230.msg48801#msg48801


 but Lola, when you get back can you please move it to the health section where it now belongs.

Thanks