Why Do So Many Domestic Cats....

[DeeDee]

I don't have cats, but thought this new article posted today would be of interest to many of you when I saw it in Twitter:

Why Do So Many Domestic Cats Have Chronic Kidney Failure?

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/08/06/kidney-disease-in-cats.aspx?np=true

[CarnivorousCritter]

I appreciate Dr Karen Becker but here's one peeve of mine:

, despite studies that show aging pets -- including those with kidney disease -- need more, not less protein. But it has to be very high quality protein.

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I believe if more such beneficial articles would drive home the very simple point of "MEAT" , as opposed to  the vague term "protein", it would sink in very quickly for more people.   Drive home "Carnivore + Meat = No Room for Confusion" and there's no gray area anymore.  

Terms such as "high quality" are merely keywords, and are being abused by PFI as well anymore.  Why not "Cut & Dry" things when we can?  

Is "meat" a cussword or something?  

[DeeDee]

I appreciate Dr Karen Becker but here's one peeve of mine:





I believe if more such beneficial articles would drive home the very simple point of "MEAT" , as opposed to  the vague term "protein", it would sink in very quickly for more people.  

I'm not sure why they don't, but I know that just because it's 100% meat, it's not 100% protein when raw. I think that's the problem with a lot of dried foods. They remove the moisture and then the protein levels go up--and with some animals, it's a dangerous level for their kidneys. This is why a lot of vets will still give levels of protein in kibble that they believe safe for pets' kidneys. Too many people don't understand the nutritional difference between 100% meat and 100% protein.

This information is for humans, but the same rules apply for pet food: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread22624.html When humans do the Atkin's diet, they often damage their kidneys due to ketoacidosis: http://weightoftheevidence.blogspot.com/2006/03/ketoacidosis-complication-of-atkins.html Doing the same thing to our pets can cause the same complications with them.

Even when I had our Airy and Corgi and still fed kibble (TOTW due to his food allergies), I kept in mind those differences just due to the fact that I already knew the dangers of having too much protein and ketoacidosis from having a younger, type-1 diabetic sister that I grew up with. (Ketoacisosis is already a problem with them, but you could complicate it by not counting the meats each day.)  Vanderbilt made us spend a whole day with a nutritionist & learning about things like that--she was only 7 & couldn't learn it all fast enough, so we had to learn it for her. It was kind of like having to learn it all for your pets, but I didn't equate the 2 until I got married and started having to care for my own pets without Daddy making decisions for me.

[Shadow]

This information is for humans, but the same rules apply for pet food: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread22624.html When humans do the Atkin's diet, they often damage their kidneys due to ketoacidosis: http://weightoftheevidence.blogspot.com/2006/03/ketoacidosis-complication-of-atkins.html Doing the same thing to our pets can cause the same complications with them.

Forgive me if i am wrong but are you comparing humans to our obligate carnivores? If cats have kidney problems they still need the high quality protein, meat. Its just  the phosphorous that needs to be controlled with phosphorous binders.

[DeeDee]

If cats have kidney problems they still need the high quality protein, meat.

But the protein levels in meat aren't always the same ones in kibble. Kibble protein is raised by removing the moisture from meat. Animals can get kidney damage in a lot of the same ways humans can (from getting too high protein) from what I've been led to understand from many breeders that feed raw.

This food is for cats http://www.radfood.com/site/856/LabAnalysis.pdf and if you look at the protein levels, they're not the same as the protein levels in something such as Orijen cat: http://orijen.ca/products/cat_kitten/analysis Even if you fix it yourself, you won't get the same protein levels as something like Orijen.

Same goes for dogs.

[Shadow]

...but when you do the calculations on your example of the orijen dry food it shows a very high amount of carbs. This is the problem, plus the fact that its dry food, which should never be  fed to cats, especially ones with Kidney problems. IMO.
Though a wet diet that is very low in carbs and high in protein, or a raw diet is what should be fed to cats as I stated before

[Shadow]

Great resource,plus many links included on this page
http://www.felineoutreach.org/Education/Kidney.html

[FurMonster Mom]

I'm not sure why they don't, but I know that just because it's 100% meat, it's not 100% protein when raw. I think that's the problem with a lot of dried foods. They remove the moisture and then the protein levels go up--and with some animals, it's a dangerous level for their kidneys. ...

I think you are on track here, but I do agree with Shadow that you can't compare a human's capacity to process proteins with a carnivore's capacity.  

When Dr. Becker states that CRF cats need "more", "high quality" protein, I interpret that to mean "food without a bunch of carbs"....  "More" does not necessarily mean 100%, but is rather a reference to the low protein foods that many vets "prescribe" to CRF carnivores.  In other words, "more than what most kibble and prescription foods have in them".  When you look at it this way, grain free wet, or raw foods fit the bill.  

.

[DeeDee]

This is the problem, plus the fact that its dry food, which should never be  fed to cats, especially ones with Kidney problems. IMO.
Though a wet diet that is very low in carbs and high in protein, or a raw diet is what should be fed to cats as I stated before

I'm afraid that dry with high protein percentages might be a big part the problem these days with so many pets getting kidney disease. That's what I'm questioning. How many cats with kidney disease were fed one of those premium, high-protein dry foods before the cat got ill--one not genetically predisposed to kidney disease? I sure can't find numbers on that.

Even if you get one of the canned foods that are 90-100% meat, their protein percentages are nowhere near what the dried foods have become. Every all-meat canned food I've seen was somewhere like 10-15% protein depending on type of meat--the same protein levels of raw meats. I know that despite my dogs being fed 80-85% ground, raw meat, organs & bone every day, they're not getting 80-85% protein--it's more comparable to canned foods depending on the meat fed that day. Compare any brand's canned protein percentages with the same brand's dry protein percentages--when the same type of meats are used--and you'll see what I mean.


It's like jerky. One ounce of raw steak will be lower in protein than one ounce of steak jerky. (Of course it takes more than one ounce of steak to make one ounce of jerky. From making it for the boys, I know it takes about 3 lbs of steak to make 1 lb of jerky, yet I've seen people actually eat an 8-oz. bag of jerky & want more!) I know reading Primal's package analysis http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/12/a/f/p/all/id/39 scared me into going to the deli to buy low-sodium meats & cheese for training bait after seeing others go through what amounts to a whole extra steak a day--without the moisture benefit--during training sessions.

I've also been told the smaller the animal, the more susceptible it is to the high protein levels in these new kibbles--especially when so many have the tendency to overfeed their pets. Unless it's something genetic, I've seen a whole lot more small breed dogs, dogs the size of cats, with kidney disease than the big boys, and I've been in the vet's office a LOT since Feb 2011.

Maybe--the same way Adkins does to humans--it's just these high levels of proteins in these dry foods that's causing so much of it in both cats and dogs that weren't already predisposed to it? What are the numbers of animals fed a raw/canned diet that have kidney disease compared to those that developed kidney disease on these high-protein, dry foods?

Heck, we already know the AVMA is in collusion with the pet food industry. For all I know, the pet food industry has already quietly proven all this information & is just helping the vets out by making our pets sick in another way other than the obvious toxins. How big are the veterinary costs; meds (hello BigPharma ); etc. (suggested veterinary diets--big red flag) anyway for a pet with kidney disease?

[Shadow]

I get what your saying Dee Dee, but these dry foods that state that they are high protein, are they really?
After the high cooking, and extrusion process, are they still high protein??
They are still usually really high in carbs, even if they are grain free, most are filled with potato to make the kibble bind together, they have to have the starch to do this.

Also I am wondering if alot of people actually feed the high protein dry foods? this is kind of a new thing in the pet food market.
Im sure there are alot of cats that get kidney/renal problems just eating dry meow mix, and it isnt high in protein.

P.S  Im all about feeding a wet or raw diet to our pets

[DeeDee]

I get what your saying Dee Dee, but these dry foods that state that they are high protein, are they really?
After the high cooking, and extrusion process, are they still high protein??

I'm not positive if they are either...but making jerky doesn't remove THOSE proteins, so I suspect they are. I'm with you on the canned or otherwise. I've become more and more afraid of the food AND the vaccinations after losing Sharkly & Dannyboy both from different kinds of cancer after I supposedly was doing everything "right" for them.

[Pookie]

My 2 cents  :  Most of the kidney problems we're seeing in cats is not from the protein, it's from the lack of water.  Since MANY people feed dry (and only dry), cats are not getting enough water in their diet and the stress on their kidneys takes a toll.  That's just my opinion.  Here's what Dr. Pierson has to say:

Kidney Disease (CKD - formerly called "CRF"):  Chronic kidney disease is probably the leading cause of mortality in the cat.  It is troubling to think about the role that chronic dehydration may play in causing or exacerbating feline kidney disease.  And remember, cats are chronically dehydrated - especially CKD cats - when they are on a diet of predominantly dry food.  The prescription dry 'renal diets' such as Hill's Prescription k/d - which are commonly prescribed by veterinarians - contain only a small amount of moisture (~10% versus 78% for canned food) leaving your cat in a less than optimal state of water balance.

I must say that I find it truly amazing when I hear about the very large numbers of cats receiving subcutaneous fluids while being maintained on a diet of dry food.  This is an extremely illogical and unhealthy practice and every attempt should be made to get these cats on a diet that contains a higher moisture content. 

Please also note the following list of the first four ingredients of Hill's Prescription dry k/d after reviewing this section on reading a pet food label - and bearing in mind that your cat is a carnivore. 

This is a diet that would never find its way into a food bowl owned by any cat in my care. 

The first three ingredients are not even a source of meat and the fourth ingredient is a by-product meal which is not necessarily an unhealthy source of protein but it would be nice to see some muscle meat ("chicken") in this product.

Brewers rice, corn gluten meal, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), chicken by-product meal

The purpose of this prescription diet is to restrict protein which, unfortunately, it certainly does.  However, please understand that there are no studies showing that restricting protein to this level will prevent further deterioration of kidney function. 

k/d restricts protein to the point that some cats - those that are not consuming enough of the diet to provide their daily protein calorie needs - will catabolize (use for fuel) their own muscle mass which results in muscle wasting and weight loss.  This internal breakdown of the cat’s own muscle mass will cause an increase in creatinine which needs to be cleared by the kidneys. The rise in creatinine, and muscle wasting, can lead to an often-erroneous conclusion that the patient’s CKD is worsening.

Of course, the same deterioration can occur in any cat that is not consuming enough protein, but the level of protein in this diet is not only at an extremely low level, it is in an incomplete form for a carnivore.  Note that it is made up mainly of plant proteins - not meat proteins.  It is also water-depleted as is the very definition of all dry foods.

[CarnivorousCritter]

Epic responses in here  

Guess what worries me the most is the deceit, especially when the McVets "advise" about protein.   They can tell unsuspecting clients that there is  "high quality protein" in their "rx" garbage and be referring to the soy and other garbage in there.  
Or say "your animal's protein needs to be cut down" meaning meat -- the ONLY time "meat" is ever mentioned, I bet.   Probably why those garbage foods have no meat.    

[Shadow]

Ok I was just going over my book again "Your Cat" and here are the food analyses comparisons based on dry matter basis.

Premium reg. dry food Protein 34%, Carbs 38%, fat 22%, Taurine .17%

"Low Carb" dry food Protein 53% Carbs 13% Fat 23% Taurine .40%

Premium canned food Protein 54% Carbs 13% Fat 11% Taurine .22%

Raw Rabbit Protein 66% carbs 3.8%

Raw chicken Protein w/ supplement Protein 53% carbs 1.1%

Turkey organ meat w/ supplement Protein 66% carbs 1%

Beef Heart Protein 66% carbs .20%

Felines Pride raw chicken Protein 55% carbs .20%

Rat Carcass Protein 55% carbs 2-3 %

I left out the taurine, and fat for the last few for sake of writing too much, what we are looking at here is the protein
So which ones are higher in protein? I feel that with the dry food just like Pookie said it is the lack of moisture that is affecting our cats with dry food, not the "high protein"

 

[Auntie Crazy]

Those old studies that indicated "too much" protein could damage the kidneys of cats and dogs were fundamentally flawed and have been completely disproved. In addition, many newer studies support the evolutionary need of carnivores for high protein diets to grow, maintain and repair every system in their bodies.

Kibble is detrimental to cats for several reasons, but too high a protein level isn't one of them; quite the reverse, in fact. In addition to the low quality of the original ingredients and the extremely damaging high-heat process (which denatures proteins, decreasing their bio-availability and increasing their potential allergen factor), keep in mind how little of the stated protein levels are actually sourced from animals and therefore available for the cat's use in the first place.

For comparison purposes as you shop for your kitties' menu items, feral cats have a daily energy intake as follows: crude protein 52%, fat 46%, and N-free extract (or carbs) only 2%... all, of course, from other animals.

Best regards.

AC