Author Topic: Natural prey vs variety  (Read 3995 times)

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Offline Amber

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Natural prey vs variety
« on: August 07, 2012, 04:34:28 AM »
I know many people stick with poultry and rabbit as the base of their cat or cats' diet because rabbits and birds are natural prey items for small felines, but are modern day chickens and turkeys really any thing like the small birds wild cats eat? Wild cats also consume rodents, lizards, insects, and anything else small and alive that they can sink their teeth into. What I am asking is, which takes priority for you, "natural" prey items or variety when you are choosing what meats to feed? Personally, since hissyfluff hasn't shown any intolerances, I have no problem feeding carefully sourced beef, goat, and venison, or anything else except fish and maybe pork. I haven't made up my mind about pork.

Offline Pookie

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 08:26:55 AM »
Great question, Amber, and one I'm trying to work out myself.  I know variety is important, but I also remember Dr. Pierson's comment about "think fur and feathers, not hooves and horns."  Chicken, turkey, quail and duck are alot closer, IMO, to the small birds a cat would eat (and heck, a cat would probably eat the chicks of those large birds) than, say, a deer, cow, etc. 

What really holds me back, though, is wondering if Pookie could handle things like beef, etc.  Before I stopped dry-feeding, he started developing an intolerance to beef, and while logically I know the dry food was a main cause of that, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the idea.  Esp. since he doesn't seem to tolerate canned lamb or venison very well, and that's grain-free with no dry.  It could very well be that the raw version would be fine and the cooking/canning process changes to the food in a way that he can't tolerate, but again, I'm not entirely comfortable with it.  I already messed him up for years before I learned, and I don't want to do anything that would make him sick again if I can help it.  (Side note:  I just gave him a sample of the Primal beef & salmon raw, and he did tolerate that.  So maybe he would be okay with it.)

So after that loooong answer, such as it was  :D, maybe it just comes down to what works best for your cat?  If it can tolerate beef, etc. then add the variety.  And if you're really wanting to mix it up, you can get grasshoppers at Petco.  Auntie Crazy puts them in the bathtub and lets her cats "hunt" them there.  Think of all the fun Hissyfluff would have!   funny2
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Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 03:55:59 AM »
Poultry and rabbit alone do not a balanced diet make.
Several studies of feral cat's feeding habits have documented a vast variety of natural prey species; various ground roosting (flightless) birds, the occasional flying bird, rodents (including squirrels, chipmunks, and marsupials in AU), reptiles (lizards, snakes, etc), and insects.

Since there is really no way to completely replicate this variety in our domesticated environment, it becomes necessary to branch out a bit.  I've had no problems with including pork, beef and lamb in our rotation. 

I guess my reasoning is that the "natural prey" is only "natural" due to the predator's size.  A cat can only successfully hunt that which is within it's size limitations.  Small cats will be most successful with small prey, and larger cats will hunt larger prey.  There was a video that showed feral cats picking out whole fish that had been laid out for them.  Every single cat took the largest fish they could carry.  One HUGE fish stayed on the plate for quite some time until a VERY LARGE cat came along to finally take it away. 

My point... Some small cats couldn't even bring down a rabbit, but a larger cat could conceivably tackle a good sized 'possum, pheasant or turkey.  So, what's the difference if the smaller cat gets that same meal with the help of a little human intervention?  Taking it on a grander scale, a large bobcat could conceivably take down a lamb, or even a small pig.... what's the difference if a human feeds that same meat to a smaller cat?

It seems to me, when looking at a cat's "natural" diet, variety is the more important aspect.  Since I'm not about to start trapping rodents, lizards or insects for my carnivorous companions, I'll just have to do the best I can within my means.
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Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 01:48:02 PM »
okay... so after a bit of  goingtobed zzzzzGif and some  morningcoffee coffee1  I've thought of another way to look at this....

Cats thrive worldwide because of the variety of meats they can handle.  
Cats in Japan have different diets than cats in Australia, who have different diets than cats in Norway, who have different diets than cats in USA, who have different diets than cats in Scotland.... etc....

If cats were not able to thrive on different kinds of meats, they would only be a regional species.
However, cats are not relegated to any specific region of the world, and in fact, in some areas they are considered an invasive threat.  
Some breeds of cats may have evolved their outer physical characteristics to suit various regions (larger size, thicker fur, etc), but their basic internal physiology remains pretty darn constant cross the board.  And their basic internal physiology allows them to thrive on a variety of prey(meat) based diets.

I hope that all made sense... lol
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Offline Amber

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 02:26:12 AM »
FMM: It makes perfect sense to me.

Pookie:  hopefully raw beef will not be a problem. Is there any intolerance to other red meats like goat?

I guess why I am really asking, and do not think I am doubting Dr. Pierson; she is amazing; is WHY avoid things that do not have feathers or long ears? What is the logic?

Offline Pookie

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 08:56:08 AM »
The beef issue was when he was on dry, and even though he's not dry-fed anymore, for some reason I'm just very nervouse about feeding it now.  But he also doesn't tolerate the canned foods with lamb or venison.  He has no problem with the feeder mice I give him from Petco, and I'm seriously considering buying a sample pack of mice from Hare-Today.

This may sound weird (but hey, it's me so what do you expect?  :D), but when I was working with a homeopathic vet to help his sister, she mentioned to me that foods are hot or cold (not the temp, but I guess the energy), and beef, venison and lamb are "hotter" than chicken or turkey.  This is a concept taught in Chinese herbal medicine.  I don't know if there's anything to that, but it's interesting to me that those are proteins he's had issues with.  It could very well be that the raw form would be fine, but I'm VERY cautious.

I was wondering if there are differences between red and white meat (is rabbit considered a "red" meat?), and if those differences have an impact on a cat's ability to digest them.  I was also wondering, to FMM's point, about the size of the cat and the size of the prey.  Do the smaller cats have slightly different digestive enzymes (or other things) that have evolved over time to handle smaller prey, but not necessarily larger prey?  Or is meat "meat" to a cat no matter what animal it comes from?  I don't have the answers, I'm just wondering.

I totally agree that variety is important.  If your cat can handle those other proteins, then so much the better.  I would love to give Pookie more variety, but I just feel that because of his past issues, I have to be VERY careful.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 10:02:01 AM »

I totally agree that variety is important.  If your cat can handle those other proteins, then so much the better.  I would love to give Pookie more variety, but I just feel that because of his past issues, I have to be VERY careful.

Well if you want some alternative red meats other than lamb & goat (rabbit white), you could possibly try to find some ostrich or emu? You can order emu from places like: http://www.emuszine.com/Food/healthiermeatsthroughmailorder.htm. I'm pretty sure it's safe since it's intended for humans. And this place has buffalo & ostrich:
http://www.blackwing.com/ In fact they've got a LOT of meats like wild boar listed there.

Those are the only other choices I can think of for variety. Well if you live in south you could find some gator?
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 12:57:39 PM »
Hope this isnt too off topic here, but I just found this site, it is highly recommended by Dr. Elizabeth.  I sure wish that I could get this stuff here, you guys are so lucky to have more options!!  great prices too. I pay just over 8$ for not even a pound of chicken thighs here. :(
hey they even sell kangaroo, and llama, (cat friendly)
here is the link
http://www.omaspride.com/catalog.html?page=shop.browse&category_id=11
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Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 10:43:08 AM »
I highly respect and constantly recommend Dr. Pierson's site, however, I'm not a hundred percent certain the good doctor has been able to keep up with all the information we've been learning over the years. I have a feeling that her "think fur and feathers" was given out of an abundance of caution and not necessarily because there was evidence that cats do better on one type of prey than another.

In my opinion, it's variety that's important, not trying to source the smaller prey that a cat could naturally catch on her own. Wild cats need to eat between 5 and 7 different proteins to fulfill their nutritional requirements, and it's recommended that raw feeders offer at least 3 - 5 different protein sources to house cats (I feed 7: duck, turkey, chicken, rabbit, pork, beef, and crickets (not grasshoppers! *smile*)). A recent meta-study showed that feral cats eat quite a variety of prey, including rats, mice, voles, unidentified rodents and insectivores, rabbits, birds, reptiles/amphibians, and more.

Another study showed that when offered a choice, cats will select different prey rather than eat the same ones over and over (this is sometimes referred to as the "monotony effect.").

And there are some smaller cats that have learned how to take down larger animals, such as Africa's Black-footed Cats. Averaging little more than four pounds as adults, they have been observed successfully hunting lamb and goat.

As for the fears against feeding kitties meats to which they "reacted" in the canned or kibble form, please be assured that it's a very rare phenomenon. I have helped many folks whose cats had IBD/IBS and almost invariably, those kitties were perfectly happy to eat the raw form of any meat. One kitty who routinely experienced "explosive diarrhea" (owner's words, not mine) when fed any canned or kibble product containing chicken now delightfully devours raw chicken several times a week.

In a small number of cases, the cats' digestive systems had been so damaged and inflamed due to the commercial products they'd been fed that they reacted to meats that had been fed a very high grainy diet... for those cats, simply switching to naturally-reared (fed) meats solved those problems. And most of those cats were eventually able to eat "normal" over-the-counter meats once their digestive systems had healed.

Hope this helps!

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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 11:48:21 AM »
A recent meta-study showed that feral cats eat quite a variety of prey, including rats, mice, voles, unidentified rodents and insectivores, rabbits, birds, reptiles/amphibians, and more.

AC

Three days ago, I had to scare some feral cats away from the workroom that's separate from our house. There was a terrible noise going on, the dogs were freaking here in the house, and when I went out there I found 3 of them were attacking my "pet groundhog" that has made a home under the rock & concrete base of the building. After seeing them kill some of the bigger bunnies out here, I have no doubt those cats would have eaten the big, fuzzy piggie if they could have.

In the 7 months that we've lived out here, I've seen those cats fishing from the rocks in the creek; catching rabbits; catching birds under my bird feeders; chasing grasshoppers, dragonflies & butterflies; digging up moles/voles (until now I didn't know they would/could dig); chasing field mice; eating possum & raccoon (I think roadkill since near the road); actually eating anything that moves except farm animals, coyotes & dogs.

I always thought feral cats would be unhealthy, but these cats look pretty healthy out here.
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 03:13:44 PM »
I wish I had everyone else's confidence.  After everything I went through with his sister, who couldn't keep ANYTHING (raw, canned or dry) down, I'm just not brave enough to take chances.  My other issue is that I don't want to buy a bunch of beef (or whatever) only to find out he can't tolerate it.  Then I've wasted my money and the meat, and made him sick to boot.

Just for fits and giggles, I checked Dr. Lisa's site to see if she explains why she doesn't use beef or other meats.  Here it is:

I stick to poultry and rabbit and do not feed beef or fish because poultry and rabbit are closer in composition to what a small cat would eat in the wild.  Also, beef and fish have been shown to be hyperallergenic in some cats and if you used beef, you would have to use bone meal and I greatly prefer using fresh bone. 

Raw fish should never be fed in large amounts because it contains thiaminase which will lead to a thiamine deficiency in the cat.


As far as variety, this is what she recommends:

In addition to chicken, turkey, and rabbit, good choices include Cornish game hen, guinea fowl, quail.  Duck can also be fed but be aware that duck is typically very high in fat which may be a problem for some cats.
 
I was at a farmer's market recently and someone there sold meat they raise -- darned if they don't feed corn to their beef as well.  So if even the small farmers do this, just how am I supposed to keep corn out of his diet, directly or indirectly?  This is part of my concern. 

Anyway, this thread isn't about me and I don't mean to hijack it.  It's about variety.  It's a good thing, esp. if your cat can handle it.
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Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 05:32:05 PM »
I wish I had everyone else's confidence.  After everything I went through with his sister, who couldn't keep ANYTHING (raw, canned or dry) down, I'm just not brave enough to take chances.  My other issue is that I don't want to buy a bunch of beef (or whatever) only to find out he can't tolerate it.  Then I've wasted my money and the meat, and made him sick to boot.

...

Aw, sweetie, it isn't about "confidence", it's about experience.

If you don't want to feed beef, don't. But if you want to and the only thing holding you back is fear, then table the fear and just do it - you're never going to know until you try.

<<hugs>>

AC

P.S. Should you wish to try, start with just a few teeny, tiny slices mixed in with whatever his regular meal is, and go on from there.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 07:40:25 PM »
The beef issue was when he was on dry, and even though he's not dry-fed anymore, for some reason I'm just very nervouse about feeding it now.  But he also doesn't tolerate the canned foods with lamb or venison.  He has no problem with the feeder mice I give him from Petco, and I'm seriously considering buying a sample pack of mice from Hare-Today.

This may sound weird (but hey, it's me so what do you expect?  :D), but when I was working with a homeopathic vet to help his sister, she mentioned to me that foods are hot or cold (not the temp, but I guess the energy), and beef, venison and lamb are "hotter" than chicken or turkey.  This is a concept taught in Chinese herbal medicine.  I don't know if there's anything to that, but it's interesting to me that those are proteins he's had issues with.  It could very well be that the raw form would be fine, but I'm VERY cautious.

I was wondering if there are differences between red and white meat (is rabbit considered a "red" meat?), and if those differences have an impact on a cat's ability to digest them.  I was also wondering, to FMM's point, about the size of the cat and the size of the prey.  Do the smaller cats have slightly different digestive enzymes (or other things) that have evolved over time to handle smaller prey, but not necessarily larger prey?  Or is meat "meat" to a cat no matter what animal it comes from?  I don't have the answers, I'm just wondering.

I totally agree that variety is important.  If your cat can handle those other proteins, then so much the better.  I would love to give Pookie more variety, but I just feel that because of his past issues, I have to be VERY careful.

In another forum I was just reading about this and the poster was saying just the opposite, that chicken is considered a "hot" food and beef and turkey are considered "cool" foods. funny2   :-\


I wish I had everyone else's confidence.  After everything I went through with his sister, who couldn't keep ANYTHING (raw, canned or dry) down, I'm just not brave enough to take chances.  My other issue is that I don't want to buy a bunch of beef (or whatever) only to find out he can't tolerate it.  Then I've wasted my money and the meat, and made him sick to boot.

Just for fits and giggles, I checked Dr. Lisa's site to see if she explains why she doesn't use beef or other meats.  Here it is:

I stick to poultry and rabbit and do not feed beef or fish because poultry and rabbit are closer in composition to what a small cat would eat in the wild.  Also, beef and fish have been shown to be hyperallergenic in some cats and if you used beef, you would have to use bone meal and I greatly prefer using fresh bone.  

Raw fish should never be fed in large amounts because it contains thiaminase which will lead to a thiamine deficiency in the cat.


As far as variety, this is what she recommends:

In addition to chicken, turkey, and rabbit, good choices include Cornish game hen, guinea fowl, quail.  Duck can also be fed but be aware that duck is typically very high in fat which may be a problem for some cats.
 
I was at a farmer's market recently and someone there sold meat they raise -- darned if they don't feed corn to their beef as well.  So if even the small farmers do this, just how am I supposed to keep corn out of his diet, directly or indirectly?  This is part of my concern.  

Anyway, this thread isn't about me and I don't mean to hijack it.  It's about variety.  It's a good thing, esp. if your cat can handle it.

I feel the same Pookie. I doubt I will ever make it to prey model or frankenprey (one is whole, one is ground, right, but I don't know which is which) mainly for the fear of messing my girls up.

My goal is to add more variety to the diet of the two who have limited tolerance to canned commercial foods.  My struvite kitty is so messed up from all those years on c/d kibble I wonder if she will every fully recover.  I want her on another protein so badly, I am praying she will eat the Rad Cat lamb even though it is not "natural" for a cat to eat lamb. I am going to try the chicken and turkey too, since I have gathered, after reading AC and FMM's helpful knowledgeable posts, that raw chicken and raw turkey could really be considered completely different proteins than the highly processed canned varieties.
.

Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 02:46:37 AM »
...

I doubt I will ever make it to prey model or frankenprey (one is whole, one is ground, right, but I don't know which is which) mainly for the fear of messing my girls up.

It takes many weeks, even months, for a nutritional deficiency to become acute enough to cause harm, and it's very easy to ensure you don't get to that pass, so you can put your minds to rest on that note.

As for the difference between prey model raw (PMR) and frankeprey - there is none. They are one and the same.

They are not, however, either ground or whole prey. Ground diets are processed using some type of grinder, while whole prey diets consist of whole animals such as mice, rats, quail, chicks and guinea pigs. PMR / frankenprey diets are composed of a variety of meats, organs and bone-in meals fed in such a way that at the end of a set period of time - usually a week, but it can also be per meal or per day - they have eaten the same, or very nearly the same, as if they had consumed whole animals. This is done using the 80/10/5/5 guideline: that’s 80%-87% meat, fat, skin, sinew, connective tissue and heart, 5%-10% edible bone, 3%-5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ.


My goal is to add more variety to the diet of the two who have limited tolerance to canned commercial foods.  My struvite kitty is so messed up from all those years on c/d kibble I wonder if she will every fully recover.  I want her on another protein so badly, I am praying she will eat the Rad Cat lamb even though it is not "natural" for a cat to eat lamb. I am going to try the chicken and turkey too, since I have gathered, after reading AC and FMM's helpful knowledgeable posts, that raw chicken and raw turkey could really be considered completely different proteins than the highly processed canned varieties.

Most definitely is there a difference between canned and kibble products and fresh, whole meats! Even if you disregard the near-total destruction of nutrients by their processing methods, there is the fact that none of the ingredients found in canned and kibble come even close in wholesomeness or nutrient profits to fresh, whole meats.

First, all ingredients in pet foods are waste products from the human food and agricultural industries; you can be assured there are no chicken breasts or beef chunks in those foods. Second, FDA regulations allow a HUGE latitude in "naming" pet foods. If a product contains the following words (or similar): “Dinner,” “Platter,” “Entree,” “Nuggets” or “Formula,” then the total of the ingredients named in the title must be greater than 25% but less than 95% of the product on a dry matter basis. Any ingredient proceeded by the word “with” need only comprise 3% DMB of the product.

Third, in their efforts to increase their own profits, the pet food industry uses the cheapest ingredients it can, while at the same time, the human food and agricultural industries seek to gain profits even from their waste products. The ties between these industries are complex and benefit everyone except those consuming their products.

For instance, at AAFCO's 2011 annual meeting, the rendering industry requested assistance in creating an animal feed/pet food name for grocery store waste and expired food products, and the examples they provided were left over pizzas and expired Hot Pockets. Said one of the AAFCO members, "We'll have to come up with a term that the consumer will buy or a renderer won't be able to sell it."

Although canned products don't cause the horrendous level of damage as does kibble, it's not anything I'll ever feed my cats again... and it's absolutely NOTHING on par with a diet of fresh, whole meats, organs and bone-in meals.

AC
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Offline Lola

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Re: Natural prey vs variety
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2012, 11:25:46 PM »
Just tossing in my two cents...
Beef anything (raw, cooked, canned) causes barfing issues with SOME of our felines.  If one thing doesn't work for all...it is eliminated.  I may change my ways someday...
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