Author Topic: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.  (Read 3315 times)

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Offline DeeDee

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Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« on: September 04, 2013, 10:42:16 AM »
More and more I'm seeing Creatine in joint supplements. I started looking around and it's in other supplements as well. After raising 2 boys playing football from ages 5 all the way through HS, I knew about the trend of Creatine supplements, lifting weights, and the dangers Creatine supplements could cause--players passing out from dehydration during the 2-a-days before school starts every year.

All those issues of dehydration, etc., made me wonder why people would want to give it to their dogs. So, I asked a vet I saw in #PetChat the other night.

My question:

Parenting Furkids ‏@FurkidParent 19h @Dr_Dan_1 Why am I beginning to see joint products for dogs having Creatine in formulas? Is that even safe? I know it dehydrates athletes.

He asked someone he knows, and sent their answer to me in email:

Quote
Response from Caroline Griffith:

"Because its trendy!  Its an amino acid that helps muscles to contract and so it helps muscles to stay ‘working’ for longer. I would imagine there has been no actual long term study done on its suitability for dogs, but it is found in meat anyway so if a dog is eating raw it will get that amino acid and all the others anyway  It wouldn’t get creatine in its natural form from cooked food as it would have been altered by the heat, so perhaps dry fed dogs do improve by taking it, but that’s only because they were not getting it in a useable form in their diet in the first place."

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Offline AnnStaub

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 10:16:51 PM »
That's interesting. I think just the other day I saw a Creatine supplement for dogs at Amazon but didn't pay much attention to it. I had never heard of giving it to dogs really.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2013, 11:05:21 PM »
All I can say is, thank goodness these 2 will readily eat human glucosamine/chodroitin supplements. I don't have to sit and weed out everything that way. I was looking around again to see if there were any dog versions cheaper before I order theirs again next month, and saw it right, smack-dab in the middle of the ingredients:

Quote
Creatine Monohydrate
A vital amino acid found in skeletal muscle, creatine combines with phosphorus to regulate and enhance skeletal muscle metabolism, increasing muscle energy, strength and endurance.

From: http://www.entirelypets.com/jointmaxts5.html#sect5

So beware if you're looking for joint supplements for your dogs. That's something that definitely needs a vet's consideration first.
 
Isn't there one of the blood tests that checks creatine levels for some disease in pets anyway?

"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline AnnStaub

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 01:06:20 AM »
Yea it's on most basic blood panels. It's used to determine kidney function. Hmmm...

Offline AnnStaub

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 01:25:50 AM »
Scratch that. It's Creatinine that's checked on blood levels. Got it mixed up! But creatinine is a broken down product of creatine.

Offline The Kittens

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 09:00:05 AM »
We in the horse world, know, that you have to know what the issue is, what your treating for, and not just start giving them supplements, as some pet parents do, without knowing, what they are giving them, and why, they are giving them.

Maybe its because, we can't just throw the horse in the back seat, and take them to a vet. Horse vets come to you, and you are charged a "farm call" and it ain't cheap, and hauling them to a vet, is a major production and even more money, and thats only used if you have a major issue and/or you have a right now, emergency, such as you need to haul them to A&M.

If one feels they need a joint supplement, they need to know exactly, what the issue is, and what exactly, they need to give. Its the same thing we do with pet foods, we read the ingredients and do the research, and discuss it with the vet and/or orthapedic surgeon, depending on the severity of the issue.

Not all joint supplements are created equal, and never never, go by the advertisement, just as we would never feed pet foods, with the pretty pictures of kitties on them.

You need to know, what, exactly, you need and then you have to look at the ingredients, and most importantly, the % of the ingredients, and how much is to be given.

Hint.....if you take 3 exact supplements, you want the one, that recommends giving the lower dose, as that is most likely, the one with the less amount of fillers. 

In the horse world, we use MSM. We use the brand that is 99% pure MSM.

If one needs to give glucosamine and/or chondroitin, one needs to know, what they are treating for, what each product is supposed to do, and what %'s you need.    cat4 TexasFlag bumpgif   

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 11:00:46 AM »

If one needs to give glucosamine and/or chondroitin, one needs to know, what they are treating for, what each product is supposed to do, and what %'s you need.    cat4 TexasFlag bumpgif   

Vlad developed a "possible OCD" of his right shoulder when he was 5 mths old and was immediately put on "leash walk only until age two." A week later at his checkup, I talked to them about putting him on The Great Dane Lady's Blackwatch program for OCD. They said they weren't sure it would work, but it certainly wouldn't hurt him, so we put him on all of the recommended supplements.

I also questioned them at the time if it would hurt Barkly since we've been worried about his joints after moving into this house b/c he chases the grandskins upstairs--in a bouncy way that worried us about his Corgi spine and joints. (Corgis can often have problems with those, and though we realize that it won't help if he slips a disk, we didn't think it would hurt to give his joints as much cushioning as possible. If he starts developing back problems, we'll just have to get a gate for the stairway.)

When Vlad hit 14 months, we started a pill form of glucosamine/chodroitin. At 17 months, I found out they'll eat human gluco/cho when I spilled some of mine on the floor, and they started eating them like Skittles before I could stop them. So with the vet's permission, we switched them to human-formula.

We've talked about it a lot, and since big dogs often develop arthritis (and you won't know it with stoic breeds like ours before it's bad), we've decided we'll just keep them on the gluco/cho, coconut oil, and digestive enzymes permanently. The vets see no problem with it.

Ours get vet checks often, so we never give them anything new without their permission. I even discuss new treats like antlers with them before giving them to the boys.

Creatine just raised a HUGE red-flag with me b/c of all the knowledge I gained with the skinkids & sports. When the oldest was wanting me to get some for him, I dragged both of them to their doctor to talk about it. He warned him against it, and had a talk with the youngest as well. We compromised on protein shakes as long as they didn't have certain additives like some brands, but nothing else. Football players are always looking to "bulk up" but they rarely talk to a doctor about the fads going around the gyms. I look at a lot of the things coming out for dogs with the same skepticism.




"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline The Kittens

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 01:19:51 PM »
I wasn't critisizing you, LOL, it was just more of an informative post, on joint supplements, and how petty parents for the most part, will just run out and buy what looks good, by the advertisment, where as in the horse world, we don't do that, and more so for all the guests that read, and may be interested in joint supplements.   :-* HeadButt

I have one show friend that used to feed Dad's. Took me fur ever, to get her to read about ingredients and feed a better foodie. She finally....got them all, the kitties and the doggies, on a good quality food, and feeding the ones that need it, wet. Things were good for a long time, then a few kitties were having probs. She called me, I asked, what did you change, she said nothing, they are eating the same foodies, wet and dry.

I told her she had to have changed something, however small. Then she said all she did was start feeding them L-Lysine treaties, cause the vet recommended them. I asked her to read the ingredients to me, well......what do you know........junkola, in the treaties.

Now she reads, ev.....ree......thing.

When her boxer puppy, tore her ACL, and had to have surgery, guess what.....wanted to run right out and get joint supplements, based on......yup.....the advertisement.

I told her, she needs to discuss and understand, with the surgeon, what exactly happened, and exactly what is going on, and how this will affect her growth.  I had to pound that in her head.

Guess what, the surgeon said no joint supplements, and explained to her, exactly why, not.  I also stressed to her, she needed to follow the surgeons rehab instructions, to thee letter.  Explained to her, what can happen, if she doesn't, and I already been thru that, with one of my horses. Keeping a horse in a box stall, for weeks, is even worseer, than trying to keep a puppy confined.

With horses, there are many reasons for joint supplements. It could be simple arthritis, which was one of my issues, on an older mare, it could be arthritis from an injury, which was also one of my issues. Horses that are worked hard and shown hard, need a different kind. Show jumpers need a different kind, as they put different kind of strain on their joints. Etc, Etc, Etc.

I did the research, and in my case, MSM worked the best. Then I had to research the different brands of MSM, as they all had different ingredients, and some were just full of fillers.

I don't know anything about dog joint issues, but I can do the research and see what I find.

What are the ingredients and %'s of what you are giving?

As far as footyball players, I could write a book on that subject. The coaches put the pressure on the kids, to bulk up, to win.  Its a bazillion dollor industry, even at the high school level.  Look at what happened with the steriod use, now the NFL is dealing with a zillion dollor lawsuit on concussions, why, cause the coaches demand, they kill the other player, and then we have the bounty bowls, with Buddy Ryan of the Eagles, ended the career of 2 of my Dallas players, New Orleans got caught too, Sean Payton their head coach, was suspened all of last year. The other coaches involved, were fined, let go or suspended too. The players involved were fined or suspended.  Then there is one of the NY Jets coaches, delibertly, tripped players of the opposing team, he is no longer a coach.

It all comes down to money.  :o

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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 01:52:12 PM »
We had Vlad on MSM powder for about 8 mths--and that canister has a picture of a horse on it too. But that part of the treatment was ended at 14 mths after a check-up. The vet told me in the beginning that he really didn't want him on MSM forever--it can cause some dehydration issues too, like creatine does--but the rest of the things are okay for as long as we want to keep them on it.

The K9 5000 Liquid Health was high in glucosamine and had some other ingredients too, but he wasn't sure about keeping them on Boswellia Serreta (that's in the K9 5000) long term. He said that it HAS caused gastrointestinal problems in some, and prolonged use could set them up for gastro problems in the future. Well that's one of the last things we wanted after hearing some horror stories about some pets of others.

That's why we switched to another formula for them at 14 months.  He said Chodroitin could cause stomach upset too, but we were just asking for it with both ingredients. If they start having stomach upset the Chodroitin will just have to go, and we'll have to find something that's Glucosamine only if we're to keep them on it.

I never have figured out exactly why the dog versions of these supplements are more expensive than the human ones, unless it's all the flavoring they put in them to get dogs to readily take them.

You have NO idea how happy I was that neither of the boys got big enough for college football. They were good in HS, but not stand-outs. That's a crazy, crazy enough world in HS sports. Once they go past HS, it's unreal.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:55:36 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline The Kittens

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 11:22:35 PM »
http://www.jefferspet.com/joints/camid/EQU/cc/2353/start/0/

There are 6 PAGES of horse joint supplements, 6. Each one has different ingredients, each one has different %'s of said ingredients, and each one, the feeding instructions, are different, thats.....why ya really gotta know, what your treating for, in the horsey world, LOL.

I forget the brand name now, I fed, of MSM, but there are a ton of MSM's, and again, each one has a different amount, per oz, and different instructions, and thats just the 99% pure MSM.  :o

If I am not being too nosey, what exactly, is the vet looking to accomplish/treat?   :-*  HeadButt

Threre are alot of very good HS football players, only about 10% ballpark, are good enough to play college football. Of those very very college football players, only about 1%, make it to the pros. Only about half of them, actually suceed at the pro level.  Some like Andrew Luck, at Indianapolis and Russell Wilson, at Seattle, never break stride, they excell at the pro level. Some just don't cut it, the level of play at the pro level is warp speed, and the defensive guys are like battleships, KAAPOW, KAABOOM, and some just can't adjust to that. Many a Heisman winner, just never cut it, never played up to their potential.

If ya ever get the chance, read the book "Meat On The Hoof". That is "exactly" what they are, to the coaches and owners.

My brother was a championship running back in HS, my grandfather offered to pay, for him to go to whatever college he wanted, Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, USC, UCLA, all top top football schools. Then he broke his leg in a game. My mother refused to let him play in college. Who knows, he could have been a championship NFL player??

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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 11:41:18 PM »

If I am not being too nosey, what exactly, is the vet looking to accomplish/treat?   :-*  HeadButt


This is what Vlad "possibly" has. https://www.google.com/#q=osteochondritis+dissecans+ocd+in+dogs

They weren't positive since it was such a small spot on the x-rays.  Since he was so young, a conservative approach was taken, and the supplements are given in hopes that they help time heal it, and everything's okay once he's physically mature.

The goal is to prevent the need for surgery.  We really want to avoid that for him if possible.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 11:52:22 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline AnnStaub

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 03:55:10 PM »
Hmm wonder if OCD is a Corgi thing? I swear that I've seen a puppy corgi with it before. The PetMD website doesn't list them as a predisposed breed though.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 04:41:25 PM »
OCD IS a thing with giant breeds like Vlad. I shouldn't have been letting him run at all, and I know that now. But any dog can get it.

I was controlling his growth as much as I could, but Vlad took a HUGE jump in height that month that it happened. See between 4-5 mths?



(The next 6 mths he moved up to 31.5" at withers, and 120#--Now that he's fully grown, we've gotten him down to 105#--He's a bit skinny looking if I clip all his hair down to 1/2", but that's where they want him.)

Corgis probably get it b/c of the way their joints are in the first place, and growing too fast can surely cause it in any breed. We give Barkly glucosamine just to TRY to prevent future problems that some Corgis get with their joints.


"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline AnnStaub

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Re: Creatine in Joint (and Other) supplements.
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 01:19:23 AM »
Oops mixed them up :( that makes sense then. That is some pretty fast growth there! I don't think I've heard of his breed before. I'm gonna have to look it up now!

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