Maybe I am grasping at straws here...

[Amber]

but am I incorrect in interpreting this to mean that Amber may not actually be sick?

"In 1930, Dr. Paul Kouchakoff of the Institute of Clinical Chemistry in Switzerland studied the effect of cooked and raw food on the immune system. He found that when cooked food is ingested, the blood responds by increasing the number of white blood cells. This phenomenon is called 'digestive leukocytosis.' Normally, an increase in leukocytes (white blood cells) happens as a defense mechanism for stress, infection, trauma, toxins, or anything harmful. Dr. Kouchakoff discovered raw food didn't cause this reaction. After much research, he concluded that raw food was viewed by the immune system as "friendly," and cooked food was viewed as dangerous. Because this reaction negatively affects the entire body, he called the overall effect 'pathological leukocytosis.'"

Kymythy Schultze. Natural Nutrition for Cats: The Path to Purr-fect Health (Kindle Locations 553-557). Kindle Edition.

If I am reading this right, cats fed cooked food, which are used to get the averages that are considered normal, actually have an abnormal amount of white blood cells, so Amber, who eat raw food and would not have pathological leukocytosis, may have a normal amount? Now that I think about it, her levels were higher when she had a staph infection, which means she *IS* reacting, just enough according to their averages.

[Pookie]

If I am reading this right, cats fed cooked food, which are used to get the averages that are considered normal, actually have an abnormal amount of white blood cells, so Amber, who eat raw food and would not have pathological leukocytosis, may have a normal amount? Now that I think about it, her levels were higher when she had a staph infection, which means she *IS* reacting, just enough according to their averages.

That's how I would interpret it, i.e.  Cooking food changes it in a way that causes their immune system to react, because they did not evolve on a diet of cooked food.  Raw food does not cause the reaction because that's what they evolved eating, so their immune system is fine with it.

[Middle Child]

I keep coming back to this thread, but...for some reason I can't seem to understand the import. I keep reading it, but it is not sinking in. I'll keep trying.

[Amber]

Amber is assumed to have a comprimised immune system because her WBC is lower than normal, even though everything else looks good and she has tested negative for everything the vet could test her for that would affect the immune system. I thought perhaps this meant her immune system may be normal... for a raw fed cat that isn't constantly having an immune response to cooked food.

[Middle Child]

Oh...thank you for explaining, now I understand. You may be on to something.

[Lola]

Do you know any other raw feeders that have mentioned their felines have lower WBC counts? 

[Amber]

No, unfortunately.

[Middle Child]

Well SK is only slightly over 1/3 raw fed, but I wonder what her next blood work will show.  I've read creatinine levels can show higher in raw fed cats too.

[Amber]

Amber had a vet visit today, and we have good news and bad news.

Good news: her immune system is apparently fine. Still no idea as to why her numbers were low before, but she is definately reacting now.

Bad news: She apparently has some sort of infection. Since she is symptom free and appears to be fine in all regards other than her WBC, he wants me to give her clavamox for a week and bring her back in to run it again in a week, and delve into the more comprehensive and expensive tests if she doesn't improve.

I have no idea if pancreatic digestive enzymes can elevate WBC, but I am taking her off them in case.

Oh, and she has pretty much been partially raw fed her entire life and fully raw fed for like 4 years now, and her BUN and Creatine levels have always been in normal range.

[DeeDee]

Just a thought here, but since cooking kills natural enzymes that animals need for proper digestion, might their bodies be replacing those killed enzymes with something readily available--but in this case it's not the right thing replacing those enzymes (So in the end after a long period it harms many of them?)?

I don't care what any of them say, I don't think that any kind of enzyme supplement (especially when plant based) can replace the natural ones they get from raw meat. I was told that different animals provide a somewhat different enzymatic mix--and that's one of the main reasons why I need to rotate Barkly & Vlad's meats.

Just a possible theory. 

[Amber]

That makes sense. I am using animal-based enzymes from bovine pancreas, not plant enzymes, but if she is already getting enzymes from her raw food, I could be putting her in some kind of enzyme overload.

[DeeDee]

I'm sorry that the only thing I can come up with is just a theory, but that's the main thing I know of that differs between raw and cooked meats. I don't give the dogs enzyme supplements, but I do give them a big dollop of yogurt with every meal to aid in digestion and strengthen their immune systems.

I don't think cats can have milk products though...or is yogurt some kind of exception to that "no milk" rule?

[Middle Child]

Yogurt is often recommended for cats when they take antibiotics.

I'm about to taper off the digestive enzymes SK is taking.  She's been on them almost 4 months and I have seen no benefit, except her whiskers are longer and fuller.  I am going to watch carefully to see if they go back to skimpy, because I suspect the improved whiskers may just be a delayed improvement from the diet change.

I give my cats a probiotic daily.

I'm glad Amber's check up went well but sorry to hear about the elevated WBC. I hope it is just some underlying infection. I hope Amber does okay with the clavamox, that is one of the Do Not Use, in my cats charts, they all have terrible problems with clavamox.  I prefer Baytril for them.

Keep us posted, okay?

[Amber]

Thus far she is fine; tolerating the clavomox well and still no symptoms.

I have probiotics but I wasn't going to give it to her anymore until the clavomox is gone, with my logic being that the clavomox will just kill them. Should I add it right now anyway?

[Middle Child]

I've seen it recommended both ways. My cats take a probiotic daily now, but when they didn't, I always started the probiotic the same day I started the antibiotic, and continued it for a week or so after. Human antibiotics also recommend started the probiotic when you start the medication.

I'm glad she's not having any trouble with it. Has she had it before?  With my cats, it seemed the more often they had to take it, the worse the reactions got. (one had to take it in his early years fairly regularly for secondary bacterial infections brought on by a herpes flare-up.  Another for UTIs and chronic ear infections.)