Parenting-Furkids
Cats => Caring For Your Cat => Topic started by: Pookie on October 19, 2014, 11:30:30 AM
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I'm not sure whether to post this here or in supplements, but this is for bone/teeth health so I put it here. :)
I'm reading about how nutrition impacts dental health. In a nutshell, it occurred to me that it's very likely the reason Pookie's teeth were in such bad condition is because he's not getting the minerals/vitamins in his food, so his body is pulling the minerals from his bones and teeth (the vet said his jaw bone was soft) instead. So I'm planning to add bone broth to his diet so he gets the minerals from the bones, since I've never worked up the nerve to feed raw bones. He may not get the cleaning action of knawing on the bones, but at least he can get the marrow, etc., and what I like about this is everything should be in the right ratio. It seems like it's as close as I can get to giving him raw bones without him actually having the bone itself.
I also wanted to add raw goat's milk, for the nutrients and good fats which he'll need to absorb the minerals, though I'm thinking the broth might be sufficient (he would eat the bones in the wild, but it's less likely he'd have raw milk unless he was a barn cat). I emailed the holistic vet to ask how much broth and milk I should give him, and she advised against the milk, due to concerns about bacteria. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that would be an issue, though I will wait until he's been off of the antibiotics for at least a week.
She didn't answer my question about how much broth to give, so I sent another email but haven't received a reply yet. I suspect it'll be the same answer as with the milk: just keep feeding the raw balanced diet. But he's not on a balanced diet, because he doesn't get all raw. IMO, if his diet was balanced, he wouldn't have lost his teeth.
I'm thinking of freezing the broth in ice cube trays, that way I can take 1 (or more) out and thaw it for each day. I just wanted to get your opinions/thoughts on how much broth I should give him each day. I won't know if it's helped or not until he goes back for a check-up, probably in 6 months or a year, and I'm concerned I may not give him enough, but I don't want to give him too much, either (if that's possible) :-\.
Thanks, everyone!
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I saw somewhere that it IS possible for humans to consume too much bone broth, but I've not seen that about pets, but because of the human "too much" comment, I'm going to assume that you definitely need to find out a definitive answer of how much before giving it to a pet.
I've also seen it said in more than one place including Dr. Becker from Mercola that you need to add some vinegar to help leech out the minerals from the bones.
This place says it's 2 tablespoons vinegar per each gallon of water:
http://www.traditional-foods.com/bone-broth/
Adding Vinegar
People add vinegar (to the tune of two tablespoons per gallon, give or take) to draw more of the mineral content out of the bone. If you do this, use a decent-tasting vinegar like apple cider vinegar. In our opinion, white vinegar ruins broth, but that is a personal matter. If you like white vinegar in your broth, by all means, add it. If you are making a spicy and flavorful soup, the type of vinegar probably does not matter anyway since it will be lost behind the spice.
Vinegar will help draw minerals out of your soup bones but we have made many batches without vinegar and just keep cooking the bones (as you will see below) until we are sick of them or they disintegrate. We get a whole lot of mineral content from our bone broth in the process.
That site was also referencing Pottenger's Cats in one paragraph.
I finally found it again where it says it's possible to get too much. It was in the comments:
http://nourishedkitchen.com/bone-broths-adrenals-bones-teeth/
WestOzGirl says
December 8, 2012 at 7:07 am
Just like most things, eat in moderation, including broth. I had a reaction during the middle of the night once. I was doing a ketogenic diet at the time and in one evening i consumed 3 big bowls of broth for dinner. That night I woke up with a racing heart and an acidic taste in my mouth. I put out a question on Paleo Hacks and got the below link to an interesting journal article. It seems you can have too much bone broth which may result in hypercalcaemia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279073/
I absolutely can't do the math on this, but it's the only guideline I can find:
http://www.rawtothebones.com/benefits-bone-broth-cats-dogs/
Feeding amounts:
Consider this to be a liquid bone, because it is! So the normal ration guideline. of 10% would be to much, since its easily absorbed. So, only use 5% to any meat & organ ratio. If adding on top of a meal that already has bone, only use 2%.
Making treats that have bone stock as an ingredient is a creative way to preserve your stock, while offering great benefits in a pleasant treat. Try this one - Bone Stock Grain Free Hard Pet Treat
So whatever percentage amount of bones raw-fed cats are supposed to get each day is what it's supposed to be?
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Thanks, Dee! I was thinking of 1 cube/day to start, but maybe I should do 1 cube every other day? My goal is to at least slow down (preferably stop) the bone degeneration, and if possible, maybe even reverse it a bit. Obviously the teeth won't grow back, but it would be nice to get his jaw (and any other bones that may have softened) stronger.
Math was never my strong suit, either. :( The ratio for raw feeding is 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ (some say 80% meat/10% bone/5% liver and 5% other secreting organs). I would love to have guidance on this from a vet , but I don't think I'm going to find it. They're probably thinking that the commercial food is "complete and balanced" and that his tooth loss is due to bacteria, not a lack of minerals.
My other question is how many calories would be in a cube of broth, since I'm also going to have to cut back on how much he's eating. But 1 thing at a time: I just want to make sure I don't over-do it on the amount of broth from a mineral perspective. Clearly, though, he's not getting enough minerals from what he's currently eating. :(
The broth has been going yesterday and should be done in about an hour. I used the Bragg's ACV to help leach the minerals out. :)
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Did Pookie ever eat kibble? That would have had a LOT to do with his bad teeth and mouth situation. Not only did the kibble stick to his teeth, but how nutritious is kibble really? Toss in genetics (possibly) as well.
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Did Pookie ever eat kibble? That would have had a LOT to do with his bad teeth and mouth situation. Not only did the kibble stick to his teeth, but how nutritious is kibble really? Toss in genetics (possibly) as well.
He ate kibble until he was about 6 1/2. What's odd is, his teeth were fine all those years (he was getting a yearly check-up) and he never needed a cleaning. For the last 5 years or so, he's been grain-free only.
I'm not convinced it's genetics. I really think there's not enough minerals in his current diet, and his body is reabsorbing the minerals in his teeth (and other bones, e.g. jaw) to maintain the amount of calcium and other minerals needed in his blood to keep everything functioning normally. Think about it: raw fed cats, that get bones, from what I've heard usually have healthy teeth and gums. I've always assumed that was because of the teeth cleaning they got when they ate the bone. BUT, while that may help, they're also getting the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and other minerals, in the right ratios, from the bone, which their own body can then use to maintain it's own bone structure. I think the tooth decay and resorption is a form of osteoporosis, where the body isn't getting enough to replace what it loses.
I've never fed him raw bone. RadCat uses bone meal, but I don't know how balanced it is. The canned food probably isn't balanced (or sufficiently supplemented) with those minerals, either. I hope to use the broth as a supplement, to give him the minerals he's not getting.
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If you wanted to get even smaller than regular ice cube sized, you could find some of these:
http://www.kitchenandcompany.com/Storage-And-Cleaning/Food-Storage/Refrigerator-And-Wet-Food-Storage/_/Cubette-Ice-Cube-Trays?tc=gfs13&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=Cubette%20Ice%20Cube%20Trays&gclid=CjwKEAjwwo2iBRCurdSQy9y8xWcSJABrrLiSqfSW2vP6mtNSapAqV7uNXH2uWtuOfPVyZgNN5CHpPxoCO-3w_wcB
I used to have some to be able to get them into the boys' bicycle water bottles. It might be easier to make a definite size for daily use that way.
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I finally found somewhere that gives amounts:
http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com/2013/10/homemade-chicken-or-meat-stock-recipe_20.html
At Mealtime Add the Broth to Your Dog’s or Cat’s Food...
Just pour the broth into the bowl with his/her food:
X-Small Dogs and Cats - 1 tbs;
Small Dogs and Cats – 1/8 cup;
Medium size dogs – ¼ cup;
Large dogs – 1/3 to ½ cup.
I also found this, so you might write her and ask about amounts to be used:
http://truthaboutpetfood.com/make-your-pet-a-healthy-broth/
Feed your pet the broth at non-meal times at least 30 minutes prior to a meal or 1 hour after (prior to a meal is better, aids in digestion of the meal). It is not recommended to add the broth to a commercial pet food – home cooked or home prepared raw food is fine.
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I do agree that most (if not all) commercial foods are probably a hit and a miss, as far as being TRULY balanced and complete. However, my fear would be over doing it... if I added anything. My HOPE is the raw chicken (or other protein), organs, and bones with the Alnutrin supplement will be their saving grace.
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I don't think anything is ever truly balanced as a *sole* diet long term.
That is an interesting take on the bone broth. Amber has tartar even with raw bones, but no serious issues thus-far, and she is 7 years old now. I'll have to scale back the HK grace to emergencies only and get her back on full raw, just in case.
And I can say that, regardless of whether or not it is "natural" for a cat, Amber positively glows when I can get raw goats milk. I haven't been able to get it consistently since we moved away from my source, but her fur, which is already soft, get softer and her eyes seem... I dunno... brighter. Clearer. Something.
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And I can say that, regardless of whether or not it is "natural" for a cat, Amber positively glows when I can get raw goats milk. I haven't been able to get it consistently since we moved away from my source, but her fur, which is already soft, get softer and her eyes seem... I dunno... brighter. Clearer. Something.
How much milk did you give her, and how often? Were you concerned about bacteria? I would think, given how quickly they digest food that it wouldn't be an issue, but I find I keep doubting myself on things lately so I'm not sure.
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I finally found somewhere that gives amounts:
I also found this, so you might write her and ask about amounts to be used:
Thanks, Dee, when things calm down a bit I'll do that. I did get a reply from the holistic vet's office, who stated that canned food with AAFCO on the label is "complete and balanced" if they comply with AAFCO guidelines. ::) (IMO, if the food was "complete and balanced" he wouldn't have been losing his teeth.) They also didn't have any advice as to how much broth to give him, or how often. *sigh*
I added 1/4 tsp of broth to his RadCat chicken last night, just to see if he'd even eat it. I don't plan to feed it again for at least a few days, when hopefully I have more information. When I first made the broth, I tried to give him straight and he wasn't interested. He finally took 2 licks and then walked away. ::)
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I did get a reply from the holistic vet's office, who stated that canned food with AAFCO on the label is "complete and balanced" if they comply with AAFCO guidelines.
Holistic vets aren't always any more informed about the "evils" of the PFI, than a non-holistic vet. Unfortunately.
Sometimes I just want to SCREAM... do you do ANY reading or research?
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Rad Cat doesn't use bonemeal anymore. Not for a couple of years. They use Organic Egg Shell powder.
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The last time I took our ol' princess, Belle in for her dental, I asked my vet about what causes FORLs. She said there has not been a real determination on what causes it. I asked specifically about genetics or calcium deficiencies, and she said nope, that all those things have been studied to death and not proven to be factors. I said I thought that was pretty bizarre, which made her laugh in agreement.
She explained that FORLs are essentially an immune trigger/reaction that rejects/absorbs the teeth. It's the same trigger that happens when the body gets rid of baby teeth. Only, for some unknown reason, it is triggered in some cats after they've grown in their adult teeth. Once the reaction is triggered, it will not stop until all the teeth have been lost, which is why FORLs can go on for years. I asked if the process would continue to the bones when the teeth were gone. She said no, the process is specific to the teeth, and once it's done with teeth, the immune system goes back to "normal". So weird.
So, I'm not sure if adding the extra calcium into the diet is really going to change the long term outcome. :-\ But it might slow down the process a bit, so kitty can keep their teeth just a little bit longer. fingerscrossed
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I JUST realized that FORL is the same thing as tooth resorption. Lola had/has that issue... had several teeth removed. Why wouldn't it be better to remove all the teeth at once...be done with it... instead of putting the cat through the trauma over and over.
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Why wouldn't it be better to remove all the teeth at once...be done with it... instead of putting the cat through the trauma over and over.
Some vets recommend exactly that, but many don't really explain that FORLs are a continuing long term issue. Or, some folks just don't absorb the information, in the hopes that their pets can keep their teeth. There's something primal and instinctive about the need to keep our teeth, and we feel that for our pets as well.
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I JUST realized that FORL is the same thing as tooth resorption. Lola had/has that issue... had several teeth removed. Why wouldn't it be better to remove all the teeth at once...be done with it... instead of putting the cat through the trauma over and over.
My vet absolutely refused to remove all Tolly's teeth, when I asked that very question. If he had lived longer he would have eventually probably lost all his teeth as the FORL progressed. But she would not extract healthy teeth.
I would imagine it would be a lot more painful and traumatizing to remove healthy teeth than to take out diseased teeth.
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Some vets recommend exactly that, but many don't really explain that FORLs are a continuing long term issue. Or, some folks just don't absorb the information, in the hopes that their pets can keep their teeth. There's something primal and instinctive about the need to keep our teeth, and we feel that for our pets as well.
I miss a lot, but I know I didn't miss the vet explaining that it would continue for Lola. That SUCKS... knowing she will always have issues.
Just going by her personality change, after having dental surgery ...she was a much happier cat... would make me lean towards removing all her teeth.
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My vet absolutely refused to remove all Tolly's teeth, when I asked that very question. If he had lived longer he would have eventually probably lost all his teeth as the FORL progressed. But she would not extract healthy teeth.
I would imagine it would be a lot more painful and traumatizing to remove healthy teeth than to take out diseased teeth.
I would guess my vet feels the same, or he would have mentioned removing them all. Maybe. With him ticked off at me right now, I would be afraid to ask. Silly7
You may have a point, about extracting healthy teeth being more painful.
Just thinking out loud... I know the diseased teeth were VERY painful... just observing the personality changes (for the better) that Lola and Lucy both showed, after healing from surgery. And the surgery itself didn't sound like a walk in the park. I guess I would have to "weigh" the pros and cons... before "pushing" the vet to remove all teeth.
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The last time I took our ol' princess, Belle in for her dental, I asked my vet about what causes FORLs. She said there has not been a real determination on what causes it. I asked specifically about genetics or calcium deficiencies, and she said nope, that all those things have been studied to death and not proven to be factors. I said I thought that was pretty bizarre, which made her laugh in agreement.
She explained that FORLs are essentially an immune trigger/reaction that rejects/absorbs the teeth. It's the same trigger that happens when the body gets rid of baby teeth. Only, for some unknown reason, it is triggered in some cats after they've grown in their adult teeth. Once the reaction is triggered, it will not stop until all the teeth have been lost, which is why FORLs can go on for years. I asked if the process would continue to the bones when the teeth were gone. She said no, the process is specific to the teeth, and once it's done with teeth, the immune system goes back to "normal". So weird.
So, I'm not sure if adding the extra calcium into the diet is really going to change the long term outcome. :-\ But it might slow down the process a bit, so kitty can keep their teeth just a little bit longer. fingerscrossed
I would think hormones, specifically growth hormones, trigger baby teeth to fall out, as part of the aging/growing process (pre-puberty). And maybe I'm being obsessive about this, but nutrition has a large impact on hormones. Silly7
Even if I'm way off base about the tooth resorption, that explanation (baby teeth) doesn't explain why his jaw is soft. The vet specifically mentioned that to me, which is why I started thinking that this is a form of osteoporosis, in that his body isn't getting enough minerals and is pulling those minerals from his bones to make sure there's enough in the blood. Humans have to have a certain level of calcium in their blood at all times to live, and I suspect that's true for all mammals.
I did contact Susan Thixton, who had written one of the articles that Dee posted a link to, and she replied back but didn't think you could give too much broth and didn't know how much she gives her pets because she mixes it in their food. So I can't explain how that person developed hypercalcemia other than perhaps the broth he was drinking wasn't balanced or he was taking supplements in addition to the broth and it wasn't mentioned in the article. :-\ But since I certainly don't want to make things worse, I'm going to err on the side of caution.
So here's my thinking, and if I'm way off, please correct me, because math was never my strong suit: Raw feeders usually go by the rule of 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ (including liver). So, if I use the 5.5 oz can (per day) as my 80% meat (I'll round down to 5 oz to make it easier, esp. since I'll need to cut back on his food anyway to help him lose some weight), then 10% bone would be .5 oz. Solid weights are different from liquid weights, so I would need to convert that .5 oz from a solid to liquid (broth). I found one place that stated that 2.1 tablespoons = 1 solid ounce. I want to confirm that, but if it's true, then .5 oz bone (solid) would be just over 1 tablespoon of broth.
5 oz can = 80% meat
5 x 10% = .5 oz bone (solid)
.5 oz solid bone = 1 tablespoon "liquid bone" broth (conversion to be confirmed)
I realize it still doesn't make for a balanced diet, but I think it would be an improvement. Does my math work (other than the conversion of solid to liquid) or am I totally messing it up? I was trying to keep it simple but I may have oversimplified.
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5 oz can = 80% meat
5 x 10% = .5 oz bone (solid)
.5 oz solid bone = 1 tablespoon "liquid bone" broth (conversion to be confirmed)
I realize it still doesn't make for a balanced diet, but I think it would be an improvement. Does my math work (other than the conversion of solid to liquid) or am I totally messing it up? I was trying to keep it simple but I may have oversimplified.
You know that my math sucks, and I have to have hubs do figures like those, but that sounds right from one of those articles that gave these measurements:
Just pour the broth into the bowl with his/her food:
X-Small Dogs and Cats - 1 tbs;
Small Dogs and Cats – 1/8 cup;
Medium size dogs – ¼ cup;
Large dogs – 1/3 to ½ cup.
If no one else answers it, I'll ask him whenever he's in the house again and not doing anything.
As it is, you'd still never use more than 2 tbs. since that's 1/8 cup.
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Thanks, Dee! And I really like your suggestion of the mini ice cube trays. What I think I'll do is put 1 tablespoon in each cube, and then add the cube to the baggie with his raw when I'm thawing his bedtime snack so they can thaw together. Plus I'm thinking he'll absorb the minerals better with the raw than he would with the canned.
BTW, Susan Thixton's article linked to another article that was AWESOME. When I have time, I want to post some pieces from it. But to be brief, yes, bone broth can help with dental disease, along with a lot of other things. Thank you SO MUCH for finding Susan's article, Dee! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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I won't swear to it, and I can't find it for sure, but if we go by dog size that's quoted in that amount list, then extra small dogs are anything less than 15 pounds--it might be 12 pounds though.
Small dogs are then 15-25 pounds
Medium dogs like Barkly are 26-50 (I absolutely know this one is right)
I really don't want to think about a cat being larger than a medium dog though. That would be really scary and probably be like looking death in the face. Yeah. That wildcat that's been spotted on our hill by several neighbors.
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I really don't want to think about a cat being larger than a medium dog though. That would be really scary and probably be like looking death in the face. Yeah. That wildcat that's been spotted on our hill by several neighbors.
Yeah, we have bobcats in this area, too. I've never actually seen one, but there's been the occasional picture in the local paper, and I know someone who had one pass through her backyard. The local wildlife is one of many reasons why Pookie is, and will always be, an indoor kitty.
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Dee had posted a link to Susan Thixton's article about bone broth, and Susan's article had linked to this one: http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2005/broth0205.htm. It's a really great piece and I highly recommend it if you have time. There is some medical terminology, but I don't think it'll be over anyone's head.
Anyway, I wanted to share some bits from it that I found particularly interesting. Emphasis is mine:
Gotthoffer also found gelatin to be prescribed for both hyper- and hypo-stomach acidity. He cites three physicians who report gelatin to "work better and more rapidly than bismuth and tannin" in clinical practice.24 A more recent study by Wald, demonstrated that glycine (a main ingredient in gelatin) stimulates gastric acid secretion.25
Maybe bone broth, which includes gelatin, is a better option than the ACV?
Scurvy is a disease caused by a deficiency of vitamin C. It results in symptoms such as bleeding gums, bruising, and poor wound healing. These manifestations are actually due to a deficiency of collagen, because vitamin C is needed to synthesize collagen.
To summarize, collagen (broth) can be considered for use in the following conditions: poor wound healing, soft tissue injury (including surgery), cartilage and bone injury (including dental degeneration).
Additional studies have reported positive results with glycine for health conditions. Fogarty states that glycine is "associated with a strongly reduced risk of asthma."41 Wald demonstrated that glycine stimulates gastric acid secretion.42
Hmm . . . again wondering if bone broth, which contains glycine, may be a better option than ACV . . .
Minerals are essential to life but they are not easy to digest. In the stomach, the presence of hydrochloric acid is necessary to physically break down our food, but also to extract elemental minerals from the food that we've eaten. A similar reaction takes place in the making of broth. An acid is necessary to remove the minerals from the bone. This is the purpose of using vinegar (acetic acid) when making broth.
Minerals have numerous functions in the body beyond the composition of bone, which is why the body will rob the bones and tissues to maintain steady levels of minerals in the blood and other fluids.
This is why I'm hoping that by adding the broth to Pookie's diet, it will help his dental issues. I really think his body wasn't getting enough minerals and was robbing them from his teeth and possibly other bones like his jaw. It continues:
Deficiencies of minerals can be acquired, similar to vitamin deficiencies. Generally there are two ways this can happen, lack of intake in the diet, or lack of absorption in the intestines. Broth can be an excellent remedy for both of these causes of mineral deficiency because it provides easily absorbed extracted minerals, plus promotes healing of the intestinal tract.
Calcium is involved in immune function by helping to stabilize mast cells. It regulates cell reproduction and it also regulates the manufacture of proteins. As we can see, calcium is a vitally important mineral, so important, that it is maintained at a constant amount in the bloodstream at all times, to be readily available for the body's needs.
Calcium (broth) can be considered for use in the following deficiency signs, symptoms and conditions: pain and inflammation, cramps, muscle spasms, delusions, depression, insomnia, irritability, hyperactivity, anxiety, palpitations, hypertension, high cholesterol, allergies, brittle nails, periodontal and dental disease, pica, rickets, osteomalacia, osteoporosis and any situation that creates bone loss such as aging, immobilization, postmenopause, and caffeine, tobacco, and alcohol use.
Conclusion
Broth can be thought of as a protein supplement, and a calcium supplement.
Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, hoping that this will help, but this information really resonated with me and I just had to share it with you. I've started adding a tablespoon of bone broth to Pookie's raw bedtime snack. I probably won't have any clue if it's making any difference until his next check-up. But it's worth a shot, and I hope this information helps others, too. fingerscrossed
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She gets about 1/4 c per day when I have access to it. I am not in the least concerned about the bacteria - I drink the milk myself, it isn't all for her :) .
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Thanks, Amber! Do you by any chance know how many calories are in that? If not, no worries, I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask. Pookie needs to slim down a bit, but I would love to give him some goat's milk now and then.
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Listening.....
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Its about 168 for a full cup so.... around 42 for 1/4 C? I think.
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Thanks, Amber!!!! HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt
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Pookie,
Did you make your own bone broth?
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Pookie,
Did you make your own bone broth?
Yep. I picked up (and did a happy dance upon finding) free-range chicken legs and thighs, tossed 'em in the slow cooker with filtered water and set it on low for 24 hours. I didn't add anything else except some ACV (with the mother in it) to help get the minerals out of the bones.
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This is about human consumption, but I thought since it's about bone broth, you might be interested in the article:
http://wellandgood.com/2014/11/05/why-new-yorkers-will-be-sipping-bone-broth-in-coffee-cups-this-winter/
He might be on to something. In the wellness world, at least, bone broth is having a serious moment. More and more health coaches, nutritionists, and beauty gurus are recommending it for its many benefits, from boosting gut health and fighting inflammation to providing a dose nutrients like magnesium, potassium, calcium, amino acids, and collagen. Food pioneer Sally Fallon Morell’s lastest book is called Nourishing Broth: An Old-Fashioned Remedy for the Modern World and trendy London health company Hemsley + Hemsley makes cheeky totes that say “Boil Your Bones.”
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I bought a whole chicken. It wasn't organic though. I don't think organic chicken exists, in my area. It did say "natural"... for what that is worth. I'm hoping non-organic is better than nothing. :-\
Anyway... my "dream" is that it would replace Pepcid for Roxy,and ACV for Arrows.
When something new is given, Roxy takes a loooooong time to eat. To avoid others from trying to steal her food, after they are finished...I end up putting Roxy in the spare bedroom. She can take her time, without worrying about food thieves. When I put it in her food yesterday... I put her plate down...she sniffed it...and then went to the spare bedroom, on her own! lol She cleaned her plate though. :)
Lucy ate, but wasn't too fond of it. I got a few "looks" from her.
Everyone else LOVED it!!!
Someone puked sometime after lunch yesterday, but before dinner. I don't know who. I didn't give Roxy the Pepcid, nor Arrows the ACV. *sigh*
Thanks for the link, DD! When I told hubby how nutritious bone brought is... he asked if I was making it for us or the pets. ;D