Author Topic: Is This Stuff True?  (Read 6396 times)

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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Is This Stuff True?
« on: June 20, 2014, 05:11:54 PM »
The Martha Stewart thread prompted me to do a quick search for this procedure and here is some stuff I found.

How much of this is true?   

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Become Educated on Feline Declaw Procedure Methods: Why is CO2 Laser the Best?
            What is a declaw? Onychectomy (or more commonly called “declawing”) is the term used to describe the permanent removal of the distal portion of the claw.

So no bone included, or is bone part of the distal portion "of the claw"?
This is confusing.  No "Knuckle"? Or IS the distal portion the knuckle of the claw? 
I can't be this dense!!  But I also sucked at Biology  :-[

 


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COUPON DETAILS
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Laser Declaw Special
All cat owners know that the laser has revolutionized how cats are declawed.  The laser seals blood vessels to prevent bleeding and more importantly it also seals nerve endings.  Why is this important?  Well, sealed nerve endings prevent your pet from waking up in pain.  A happy cat will heal faster than a painful one.  Consequently, our hospital performs all declaws with our state of the art laser. For a limited time, your pet will receive a thorough physical examination,  anesthesia, a pre-surgical pain injection, and a laser declaw all for the low price of $200.  You must mention you saw this at DESHONANIMAL.COM or bring a print out of this page to receive this special price.
Our dental special
is also a package deal, your pet will receive


Do they?  Wow, they took the trouble to poll every existing cat owner!!!!


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In our practice, recovery from surgery is very rapid, with the outcome leading to a stronger bond between pet and pet owner, which ultimately leads to better overall care.

A stronger bond?!   That's INCREDIBLE!!   Like Magic even!!   Is this really true, do you think?   Should people with "aloof" cats get them declawed to improve their bonds?!!!   Do they cuddle more?
(I know that is a peeve of some people who complain about cats' personalities!)


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We are a Cat-Friendly Practice. Cat-Friendly means that we have some special things and protocols designed to make our feline patients feel right at home. Click here for details.

Declawing involves the surgical removal of the claws, generally all ten of the claws on the front paws.  There are several surgical techniques in use.  At Sunnyside Veterinary Clinic, we use a technique that involves surgically amputating the claws with a CO2  laser.

I keep reading about "bone"/like our first knuckle.  So again, their knuckle is in their claw?  That's weird...

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To give you an idea of the approximate frequency of these complications, I can tell you that I have had one maybe two cats over the years with phantom pain, none with posture problems, and an infection maybe every couple of years or so.

This is a doozie!!!    I'd love for someone to confirm this!!      Can anyone describe, please, what "Phantom pain" is, literally?  I'm safely assuming humans could describe it, if they know what it IS, beings they can speak (or write)!  Thanks in advance!!!   


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A number of scientific studies have shown that declawed cats have no greater risk of getting bitten or injured in a cat fight

  Maybe this is because a declawed cat tends to SLAP harder, thus better defense against an aggressor?  That would be my guess!  Love "scientific studies", don't you?!    But they probably took the easy route & observed declawed cats interacting with intact ones & watched what didn't happen   ::)  Lazy...

OK so somebody wants to spare their $1,750.95 leather sofa with the suede trimming. So they get online & put "declaw" for their town into the search box:


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Look at our newly discounted pricing for spay, neuter, and declaw of your pet. These prices have been discounted over 100 dollars off regular pricing.

Hey, $100 big ones could pay for a professional leather cleaning!!!!    SCORE!!!!

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We recommend that our doctor get a chance to visit with you and your pet before making the decision for surgey. Druing this visit the docor will explain the how the surgical procedure should go as well as the importance of the pre-anesthetic blood work and our protocol for safe anesthesia just like with humans.
On surgery day your dog will be welcomed by one of our staff members who will further answer any questions or concerns you might have.


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Each claw will be surgically removed and a stitch will close the incision.

Again, just the claw? Why on EARTH do I keep reading about a knuckle?   Damn Internet...


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Declaw Package
· · ·
● ● ● ● ●
Pre-surgery physical exam by the surgeon Anesthesia Surgery: Nail is removed with an incision so small, no sutures are needed
Two nights hospitalization Daily pain relief medication while in Hospital Nail trim “Yesterday’s News” litter Lots of extra TLC!

OK Now it's down to a NAIL? Well a nail is a bone in a knuckle, isn't it?  I am TOTALLY confused! Damn Internet!!  If they are removing nails, why would a cat need TWO nights Hospitalisation?  Well I did rip my index fingernail off once and stuck some peroxide & a bandaid on it and it HURT enough to draw tears but I'm not a cat of course...


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Why declaw my cat? Cat scratching is a normal behavior done to mark territory and to also shed dead nails. At Cats …, we understand that behavior modification is not always effective in deterring your feline friend from using its claws inappropriately, and so only offers the most advanced method of declawing.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 05:25:42 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 05:42:33 PM »

This is a doozie!!!    I'd love for someone to confirm this!!      Can anyone describe, please, what "Phantom pain" is, literally?  I'm safely assuming humans could describe it, if they know what it IS, beings they can speak (or write)!  Thanks in advance!!!   


Phantom pain is when a part of the body is missing, but the brain (through live nerve endings at the end site of the missing part) still thinks that it's there because of pain. Plenty of people that have had amputations feel severe pain in the area that the limb (that no longer exists) would be if it still existed--mainly because of nerve trauma. It's like a ghost hiding in their body. An arm-amputee can still feel their fingers hurting. My parents told me that after Korea, one of my uncles would wake up screaming in pain from the legs that weren't there any longer, but were still hurting.

I'm not buying that "sealing off the nerves" bit. It was common in the past that surgeons would cauterize the wounds of amputations during war time to prevent further infection. It didn't stop phantom pains though. So just how exactly is a laser supposed to burn off the nerves to "seal" them any differently from that?

I would go further toward believing it if laser surgery weren't popular with humans, and soldiers weren't coming back from war with phantom pains. The thing is, they're still coming back feeling it.


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Each claw will be surgically removed and a stitch will close the incision.

Again, just the claw? Why on EARTH do I keep reading about a knuckle?   Damn Internet...



Excuse me, but if the laser seals the wound off, why do they need a stitch?


And I'll believe this bit more than I believe "the claw" without bone being mentioned:

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Procedure involves disarticulation of the P2/P3 junction and subsequent removal of entire P3 bone

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=62643
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 05:57:21 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 05:54:34 PM »
Wow, thank you. {Hugs}   

 Was wondering about their statement, whether it's possible people could know/judge what an animal  (let alone cat of all stoic creatures) is feeling, regarding this, then.    (Not making ligh of our Servicemen and others, of course, comparing to our pets...)   

Thank you again. 

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 05:57:28 PM »
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Excuse me, but if the laser seals the wound off, why do they need a stitch?

That's why I posted these questions.   :)    Hope somebody can enlighten us on these perplexing things... 

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 06:04:09 PM »
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Procedure involves disarticulation of the P2/P3 junction and subsequent removal of entire P3 bone

Just for kicks, do a "declaw" search in your area and see how many "options" mention this on their official websites   (although if you're out "West enough", you'll have better odds of people being upfront and disclosing everything, I think.) 

Offline Lola

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 06:09:48 PM »
I would be happy to explain.  The info that you quoted... BSbaloney
Everything you NEED to know about caring for your feline. www.catinfo.org

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 06:12:55 PM »
Wow, thank you. {Hugs}   

 Was wondering about their statement, whether it's possible people could know/judge what an animal  (let alone cat of all stoic creatures) is feeling, regarding this, then.    (Not making ligh of our Servicemen and others, of course, comparing to our pets...)   

Thank you again. 

Since it's impossible to know what an animal TRULY thinks, I don't think it's possible to know if they're feeling phantom pain or just plain-ol' real pain from being cut on. I can tell you for a fact that having part of your bones cut out is some of the most excruciating pain ever. I handle pain a lot better than most, but when I had my hip replacement 15 years ago, it was so bad that once I woke up I couldn't breathe. But joint replacements are still different from amputation. (I've heard new developments make it better now, but I don't want to find out. However, I don't read about them doing nerve-blocks on animals when something catastrophic is done. Just a bunch of after-care pain-management BS.)

That's one reason I'm so against this procedure. I can't imagine having something cut off as hurting any less than I did no matter which part of the body that's cut off. Losing bone is losing bone. It freaking hurts!
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2014, 06:14:35 PM »
Here is a picture of the TRUTH




Since picture are hidden, to guests, here:
http://i61.tinypic.com/2n1xbhi.jpg
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 06:18:00 PM by Lola »
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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2014, 06:20:25 PM »
Just so you know, I think that bone fragments left behind is why some cats feel pain afterward (after healing has occured). The vets aren't meticulous about cleaning things up. Loose bone is going to feel something like loose shrapnel, and every time it comes into contact with something--like trying to dig in litter--it's going to cause pain throughout the whole of the skin in that area from pressure and/or sharp bone pieces that are, in effect, cutting the skin from the inside-out.

Maybe they're trying to explain this away as "phantom pain" to keep the owner from saying something went wrong and they left a bunch of bone behind that shouldn't be there. Maybe there are bone fragments behind, and the vet is afraid of malpractice?

But gee. It wouldn't have been messed up in the first place if they hadn't have cut on the cat!

« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 06:22:11 PM by DeeDee »
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 06:27:42 PM »
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Maybe there are bone fragments behind, and the vet is afraid of malpractice?

I don't want to go OT, but...  that isn't going to happen.  http://www.animallaw.info/articles/qvusvetmal.htm
Everything you NEED to know about caring for your feline. www.catinfo.org

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2014, 07:09:22 PM »
I would be happy to explain.  The info that you quoted... BSbaloney

But it's "official" info, on actual licensed peoples' own websites. And I only grabbed a few off some of the first search pages' hits, too. 

Wanna do an experiment & put "declaw" for a random city in search box, and see if anything different comes up on the hits?  (TIP: Aim for/towards the West Coast for better odds of reading the whole truth.)


***Please note, those who don't know how sardonic I can be when trying to express things: My "questions" and comments (while still sincere) in response to the statements quoted were intended to amplify how absurd and (contradictorily) vague  I perceive the statements to be  -- not meant to make fun of the issue.  I'm just too disgusted for a regular rant... especially with that big, elaborate Martha Stewart blog/outcry...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 07:15:04 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2014, 07:40:29 PM »
 

Wanna do an experiment & put "declaw" for a random city in search box, and see if anything different comes up on the hits?  (TIP: Aim for/towards the West Coast for better odds of reading the whole truth.)

Well our local pet magazine, Nashville Paw is against it: http://www.nashvillepaw.com/latest_topics/2011/12/13/the-cruelty-of-cat-declawing.255804

Nashville Cat Rescue is against it: http://www.nashvillecatrescue.org/declawing

The news station that I watch most Cites the HSUS policy that is MAINLY against it: http://www.newschannel5.com/story/478070/declawing-cats

And this vet doesn't list it among the surgeries they do: http://franklintnvet.com/services/western-medicine/surgery/

Note: I'm not sure why that vet showed up in my first page of results other than the fact that Google customizes searches for people, and I'm sure that if I went to my husband's computer, I'd get different results.

However, this one DID come up:

http://www.nashvillecatclinic.com/veterinary-services.html

As well as this one:

http://www.localvets.com/services/declawing/tn/nashville/

But now I've quit looking since I saw this link at the end of the first page of my results: http://www.petdeclaw.com/ml2/?v=110488550&u=08B0A5F9D4DB89BF0210818080F807181020F3A884DAC3B4F0AF1D&gclid=CjgKEAjwt4-dBRCDnaTUn-mC_0oSJAC4Q6kG4YOW-NvHiOggWwQHBOSawLz4nSk7Cjhb4TWK45e6HPD_BwE

I'd like to whop the owner of that petdeclaw.com page over the head with an anvil!

So, out of 10 results, I ended up with 4 that were either suggesting other things, against it completely, or didn't list it as a service. All the other results not listed were along the lines of the "localvets.com" business listings.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 08:10:39 PM »
Wow  :o

On that last link, it states:

About Our Cat Declawing Directory
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We all love and care for our pets every day, but sometimes our pets need more than just our love. Cat declawing is a service we sometimes have to get for our pet that love and care doesn't provide. At cat declawing offices, our animals can get services and products that help him or her live a more fulfilling life

What I truly wonder is how and why this stuff is tolerated/allowed.   Can anybody back those statements (as well as the ones in OP) UP?   ANY of them?  Why aren't people demanding these statements be, at least, corrected?  It's not like salesmen bragging about an appliance performing how it's not really going to.  I mean, this is a "Surgery"  :o  And salesmen of appliances and what-not aren't licensed....

Sure, we get hosed by unsavory businesses and products every day, claims loaded with a bunch of BS for over-priced junk. But we can sic our credit cards and the BBB on them, and get refunds, and write online reviews...

This stuff is downright dangerous, IMO, if people believe it. And unless Joe Q Public does some serious research and finds the right websites (like you & Lola have posted above), how are they ever gonna know EVERYthing it entails unless they luck upon one of the great vets who tell the entire story?   

Dam, this and that food issue. What a double-whammy... I had never looked into the declawing issue as it's not something we'd ever even thought about.  Only knew it was "cruel and unusual". That's it. 

Offline DeeDee

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2014, 08:20:03 PM »
Why aren't people demanding these statements be, at least, corrected?  It's not like salesmen bragging about an appliance performing how it's not really going to.  I mean, this is a "Surgery"  :o  And salesmen of appliances and what-not aren't licensed....


You can demand all day long. We've got freedom of speech, and people are allowed to put up websites that "state their personal opinion" all day long. So, in their opinions, they're giving out information that they believe in, and there's nothing to be corrected.

As far as consumers demanding they change their opinions, well it's like this. . .Martha Stewart didn't pay one whit of attention to people fussing about her statements on kitty-footy-amputation. And a LOT of people were demanding she address it. She did exactly what every other site will do. Ignored the demands.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Is This Stuff True?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2014, 08:36:53 PM »
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You can demand all day long. We've got freedom of speech, and people are allowed to put up websites that "state their personal opinion" all day long. So, in their opinions, they're giving out information that they believe in, and there's nothing to be corrected.

Oh I'm not going to.  (Demand).  Like I said, they were all up in arms over Martha Stewart when stuff like this is on "official" site, of a nation-wide vet chain, one of the 2 largest in the country:

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In our practice, recovery from surgery is very rapid, with the outcome leading to a stronger bond between pet and pet owner, which ultimately leads to better overall care.

That is a statement regarding DEclawing.  Do you, in your honest opinion, think that is true? Half-true?  A "maybe"?     Is whatever MS said, as her opinion, worse than that?

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As far as consumers demanding they change their opinions, well it's like this. . .Martha Stewart didn't pay one whit of attention to people fussing about her statements on kitty-footy-amputation. And a LOT of people were demanding she address it. She did exactly what every other site will do. Ignored the demands.

Yup.  I hear you.  Guess I'm just perplexed at all the "commotion" over her opinion, as opposed to what is so often being presented as "fact", when it certainly does not appear to be fact. 

Which is why I asked the questions in the OP.  Is it just me being too critical of *mainstream business policies and procedures, or what? 

Thanks for the dialogue!  :)

« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 08:44:35 PM by CarnivorousCritter »