Parenting-Furkids

Cats => Cat Food And Nutrition => Topic started by: Middle Child on March 04, 2012, 10:04:42 AM

Title: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 04, 2012, 10:04:42 AM
I know I have several threads on this already, but they are scattered around, I can't keep track of which forum I put them in. And this one will update, with a synopsis for back round information.  But I'm still not sure where it belongs funny2 It's about nutrition, but also about medical issues, but since the medical issues are directly related to her diet, I guess I will keep it here

My Lovey cat has now gone 9 days with no regurgitation!  And: two days with no pepcid.

bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

I had almost  forgotten how she used to be, running everywhere.  She slowed down over the past year or more, and, while I noticed it, I just didn't think of it as abnormal.  But now, last night, I realized she has started running everywhere again. She dashes around, instead of walking.  Dashing was something she always did, but as it gradually stopped, I just didn't attribute it to diet. Until the other dietary problems started, that is.

She plays more and sings more, is just all around more herself than I have seen in a long long time.  With her increased activity level and the slight reduction I have made in her daily intake quantity, that extra pound she has gained over the past month should slip away without too much trouble (though I am of course being careful that she doesn't lose it too quickly).

She has been on an all canned diet, (and completely off the Hills Prescription c/d kibble)  for 45 days. At first I was feeding her a variety of canned foods, the same way I feed the other two, but it soon became clear that she has other sensitivities, too.

 It took time to find canned food that didn't bother her in one way or another, but I finally did, the By Nature Organic Turkey & Chicken, a food which also meets my criteria of a lower phosphurous and magnesium percentage than most other commercial canned foods. It is NOT a "reduced phosphurous and magnesium" food, but the numbers, on a dry matter basis, are very close to the c/d, which is important because of her propensity to forming struvite crystals in her urine.

Her urine pH is mostly staying at the 6.5 range.  Sometimes it spikes at 7. I'm not sure why a pH would be so inconsistent, especially as she eats the same food day in and day out. There doesn't seem to be any specific pattern I can find, but when I average a week's worth of readings the result is 6.5.

She has been on ONLY the By Nature Organic Turkey&Chicken for 16 days.

While there are still issues to be worked out, as I am still nervous about regurgitation, and though she is still taking 1/2 tablespoon of pumpkin morning and night, in a meal, constipation is still a problem, (but maybe if I can keep her OFF the pepcid, that will be solved, too) the change in her, as Herself is...incredible.  Especially since I have narrowed her food down to eliminate hopefully all the ingredients  to which she's shown intolerance.  I'd like to try expanding her diet a little, because I think eating the same food day in and day out can exacerbate ingredient intolerance/sensitivity problems but things are going so well, I think I will wait a while longer, though I still hate it that she is getting menadione bisulfates with every meal, albeit a very tiny amount (it is the last ingredient listed).

Oh, and no more hairball remedy either in 13 days.  That, too seemed to trigger regurgitation of food. The pumpkin is keeping the hairballs going out the other way. bananamiddlechild

She still takes a probiotic (Proviable DC) daily, and her cosequin daily (for bladder health). She is still needing mineral oil every two days, but I am hoping with the elimination of the pepcid, I'll be able to stop that, too.


(https://parenting-furkids.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi693.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv291%2Fbrightlight44%2FMazy%2F2194eaef.jpg&hash=9a1467279bdbb955f91ee702df5a1ac163308e78)
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 04, 2012, 10:57:07 AM
By the way I forgot to mention, she is hardly shedding at all now. She has always been a heavy shedder, especially this time of year. But her coat is now thick and soft, and when I touch her my hands are not coming away covered in fur.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on March 04, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
Wow!!   love1


Appears as though her little system has been gradually adjusting, and right before your eyes!!   How WONDERFUL!!!!

 kittybutterfly clapping1
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 04, 2012, 09:41:22 PM
Thanks CC!  Now that I've noticed it, I just can't get over how thick and nice her coat is, and the lack of shedding.  She has always shed tons, my hand would be covered when petting her.  Especially this time of year.  But now...nary a hair.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 04, 2012, 10:00:30 PM
MC,
I'm soooooooo happy for you BOTH!  Your gal feeling better, and you seeing the results of alllll your hard work...awesome.  By the way, she IS a beauty. 
 
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: FurMonster Mom on March 05, 2012, 02:10:07 AM
So glad you've found something that works.   catmilk1
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 05, 2012, 08:14:20 AM
Thanks you guys!  Another day (yesterday) with no regurgitation!  That makes 10 days in a row, an all time record.  And another morning (this morning) with no pepcid, that's three!

Now if I can just get her pooping back to regular......I'm going to be reading this site some more:

http://www.felineconstipation.org/index.html

I emailed the owner to thank her for the site and she wrote right back.   She suggested spreading the pumpkin out more (like I was doing initially) and perhaps adding miralax now and then. I admit to have been balking at miralx up until now, though I know it is used frequently now for megacolon cats.

I'm really hoping that now that I am not using the pepcid any more, the constipation will stop.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 05, 2012, 12:48:54 PM
Hi MC,

I'm so glad things (knock wood) are going so well!  I was reading the Feline Constipation site (prevention section) and saw the following.  I know, I'm obsessed, but I thought it was interesting (bolding is mine):

Nerve sheaths, the outer protective covering of nerves, need good body levels of Vitamin B12 to ensure nerve integrity, so that the nerves inside the sheaths are not vulnerable to exposure and do not 'short out' as it were. The usual form of supplemental B12, added to most commercial cat foods and supplements, is cyanocobalamin which requires conversion in the body to an active form. Cyanocobalamin is actually an artifact of the purification process when synthesizing Vitamin B12. The methylcobalamin form of Vitamin B12 does not require the same conversion and is now more readily available for purchase for cats who require supplemental Vitamin B12.

The entire family of B vitamins called B Complex are important to help maintain gut health and to prevent constipation. Vitamins are not nutrients, they are co-enzymes, that is they assist enzymes to do their jobs. Enzymes are not only involved in digestion, enzymes play a role in all metabolic functions and each enzyme is specific to its task. Without adequate B vitamins such as folic acid and Vitamin B12, enzymatic function suffers. First to suffer are those areas of the body with faster cellular turnover such as the gut wall and the blood components. If gut barrier function is reduced, the body itself is more vulnerable to trouble and the enteric nervous system is at risk of damage.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 05, 2012, 09:29:43 PM
Hi MC,

I'm so glad things (knock wood) are going so well!  I was reading the Feline Constipation site (prevention section) and saw the following.  I know, I'm obsessed, but I thought it was interesting (bolding is mine):


Okay, thank you!  But she's off the pepcid now, so mal-absorption of vitamin B-12 should no longer be an issue, right? I just don't want her to have to have anything she doesn't really need, such as the binders and other fillers that come with vitamin tablets.  Also, I read in, I think it was the link you posted in the Vitamin B-12 thread, that giving this vitamin orally, for a cat who is deficient because of adsorption problems isn't an effective way of rectifying the problem, that injections are much preferable.

I haven't spoken to my vet in a couple weeks, but I don't know if she'd be willing to prescribe B-12 injections (I would do them myself) without an exam/bloodwork, which my girl isn't due for until June. (Last check up was in December)  Any other cat, I wouldn't hesitate, but this one, I really try to keep her vet visits to twice a year.

Well, we'll see how it goes now that she is off the pepcid.  I think it's just taking this long for her poor little body to recover from all the years on the corn laden c/d kibble.

When I used to defend this food, I always said that if ever I thought my cat was no longer "doing well" on it, I would find another way.  Well, and so I have, right?  It's been a struggle, and it's not over yet, but I think we are well on our way.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 06, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
Quote
When I used to defend this food, I always said that if ever I thought my cat was no longer "doing well" on it, I would find another way.  Well, and so I have, right?

Right!  The food was vet recommended.  Whenever you tried something else, her PH levels spiked.  As far as you could see, she was doing okay.  Many would have done the same thing.  You are human.  We are all human.  

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 07, 2012, 10:23:24 AM
Thank you so much for your support everyone! I really think it is just taking a long time for her body to recover from 6 years of bad food. This morning, because of insomnia problems, I over slept. I panicked when I woke and realizedshe had been almost 10 hours without food. Only two weeks ago that would have almost guaranteed a regurgitation, unless I gave her pepcid.

I was so reluctant to put her back on the pepcid for even one day I decided to risk it. She ate her little first meal of the day, and kept it down, even after an almost 10 hour fast!

Last night I thought we might have a regurgitation incident, but she managed to BURP instead. I really do think that some of her problem is, when she feels the burp, she just assumes she is going to bring everything back up, as has been her habit for so many years.

Now I have seen her burp twice, but keep the food down. I think she is learning that when she feels that bubble, she doesn't HAVE to bring it all back up, she can just let the bubble up.

This morning I found myself wondering how long it will take before I will stop actually counting the days, as in "wow, 12 days with no regurgitation!". I look forward to a time when I won't be feeling so watchful over this, if ever.

Now just to get her bowels on the right track...she's still going only once every 48 hours, and when she goes the stools are larger than I like to see.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 07, 2012, 07:01:58 PM
I don't know if I have ever heard any of our cats burp.  Hmmmm
Glad yours burped, instead of regurgitating.  dance1
I think you will eventually quit counting the days.  I wouldn't count on being able to stop being so watchful though. 



Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 08, 2012, 06:33:09 AM
I don't know if I have ever heard any of our cats burp.  Hmmmm
Glad yours burped, instead of regurgitating.  dance1
I think you will eventually quit counting the days.  I wouldn't count on being able to stop being so watchful though. 





I know you're right about that.  I've been hyper watchful since my first cat as an adult, Baby, developed cystitis when he was 3.  That's (1986)  when I started keeping a Cat Journal. (and also when I went to canned food only)
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 08, 2012, 02:14:47 PM
Because of you...
I now also have a journal.
I have By Nature Organic food on order.   :-*

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 08, 2012, 04:25:19 PM
Welcome to the "Journal Club," Lola!   :D  I've had one for years, too.  It was the only way I could figure out what allergies Pookie and his sister had (before I stopped dry feeding).  Even though he's much better now, I still do it.  Ya never know . . .
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 08, 2012, 04:39:06 PM
Okay, thank you!  But she's off the pepcid now, so mal-absorption of vitamin B-12 should no longer be an issue, right? I just don't want her to have to have anything she doesn't really need, such as the binders and other fillers that come with vitamin tablets.  Also, I read in, I think it was the link you posted in the Vitamin B-12 thread, that giving this vitamin orally, for a cat who is deficient because of adsorption problems isn't an effective way of rectifying the problem, that injections are much preferable.

I haven't spoken to my vet in a couple weeks, but I don't know if she'd be willing to prescribe B-12 injections (I would do them myself) without an exam/bloodwork, which my girl isn't due for until June. (Last check up was in December)  Any other cat, I wouldn't hesitate, but this one, I really try to keep her vet visits to twice a year.

Well, we'll see how it goes now that she is off the pepcid.  I think it's just taking this long for her poor little body to recover from all the years on the corn laden c/d kibble.

Hi MC,

I understand the concern about binders and fillers in supplements.  The one I give Pookie only has 2 or 3 ingredients in it, so I’m more comfortable using it.  It’s also a very small pill so he's not getting a lot of those other ingredients.

I guess I don’t think of crystals as being a GI issue the way IBD is, so I would think if it’s mixed in her food she’d get something out of it, but I could be wrong.  I started Pookie on it because I noticed him developing similar symptoms that his sister had (who I think was B12 deficient), and after losing her, I couldn’t bear to lose him.  And I suspected that years of dry feeding may have depleted his B12 levels (they didn’t get much canned then).  I figured it couldn’t hurt to try, and I did notice his symptoms getting much better, so I still mix it in his food every day.

It’s entirely up to you whether you want to add it to her food or not.  You have to do what makes you comfortable.  I just wanted to share as much info as possible based on my experience.

I’m so glad she’s doing better!  Good job, Mommy!
 DrLisaPiersonWorthy purplekat love1 kisses3 clapping1 happydance1 yaygif woohoogif multistars dancingbanana bananamiddlechild tiggerbounce coolgif2
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 08, 2012, 09:48:17 PM
Welcome to the "Journal Club," Lola!   :D  I've had one for years, too.  It was the only way I could figure out what allergies Pookie and his sister had (before I stopped dry feeding).  Even though he's much better now, I still do it. Ya never know . . .

Soooo true!  With all the constant recalls, ingredient changes, etc.  *sigh*

Sorry about the hijack.   :D

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Amber on March 08, 2012, 10:54:39 PM
I would just like to note that since she is on a food that is highly digestible with little filler, she is going to have bowel movements much less frequently than before. Are you sure that she is having actual constipation and not just absorbing her food better?
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Mo on March 08, 2012, 11:01:11 PM
I'm glad she is doing so much better!!!

BTW, some of mine burp as well funny2 
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 09, 2012, 07:02:35 AM
Hi MC,

<brevity snip>

I guess I don’t think of crystals as being a GI issue the way IBD is, so I would think if it’s mixed in her food she’d get something out of it, but I could be wrong. 

Thank Pookie, it's not the struvite I am thinking of as her GI issue but the regurgitation.


I would just like to note that since she is on a food that is highly digestible with little filler, she is going to have bowel movements much less frequently than before. Are you sure that she is having actual constipation and not just absorbing her food better?

Thanks Amber,  I did not think of that.  It could be, but, on the other hand when she does have a bowel movement it is too big. Having lived with a megacolon cat before, I do not want to have to deal with that again.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 09, 2012, 12:18:52 PM
Thank Pookie, it's not the struvite I am thinking of as her GI issue but the regurgitation.

Ah, gotcha.  I wasn't thinking of that, sorry.   :-[

Here's a suggestion just in case you decide to add the B12 to her food (or for anyone else who may be considering the same):  depending on how many meals she gets (Pookie gets 4:  2 in the morning, 2 in the evening), add a little to one meal and the rest to another meal.  Pookie gets his in the morning, so I add some probiotic and B12 to his "1st breakfast" and the rest to his "2nd breakfast."  That way, if he horks up one meal, he'll get some in the other.  And if he keeps both meals down, even better.   ;D

The things we do for our furkids . . .  CatPurr
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 09, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
I forgot to mention we had a slight set back yesterday. Out of the blue, she started to regurgitate her mid-day meal, even before she had finished eating it.  Without thinking I grabbed her and stopped it, by kneeling on the floor and holding her upright with her front paws draped over my arm, stroking her throat and chest and speaking softly to her. In retrospect this was probably a very dangerous thing to do, I don't know what possessed me to try it. I could have caused her to aspirate!  Doh1

Anyway, she did keep it down.  But...right before I was about the leave the house she jumped down into a hunch like she was going to try again (this was about 45 minutes later).  She brought up a burp, but looked so uncomfortable I decided to give her a pepcid dose (1/4 10 mg tablet). The pepcid did the job, made her more comfortable and there have been no more problems.

I am so depressed about discovering By Nature has changed the formula of their Organic Turkey&Chicken to contain carrageenan I don't know what to do with myself. I have about 2 months of the old formula left.  THEN, what am I going to feed this girl?
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 09, 2012, 01:31:19 PM
 grouphug   grouphug  grouphug

I'm so sorry.  I know raw's not an option, but is home-cooked?  That way you could control the ingredients in her food?

I just saw your post in another thread that she won't eat people food.   :'( 

 grouphug grouphug grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 11, 2012, 07:50:35 AM
Thank you Pookie.  I am TRYING to not freak out, until I hear from "my" contact at By Nature.  She had a tummy ache again yesterday and I had to give her some pepcid, but only a 1/8 tablet.

Her urine has gone a bit alkaline though, so I am going to have to do something about that.  Vitamin c tablets? Gosh I hate having to tweak her with all these supplements. I wonder if she would eat a home cooked diet, if it didn't resemble people food, at least. I don't know, I am just too frightened to do that, what if I mess her up even worse?

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 11, 2012, 04:50:15 PM
This is just my  2cents -- I am NOT trying to pressure you in any way.  These are just my thoughts for what they're worth:

1.  You know how to research.  You have done TONS of it in getting her this far.  So I think if you research home-cooked diets, and find some really good recipes, you'll be okay.  You already have a good idea of what to avoid (garlic, spinach, etc.).  Perhaps Dr. Hofve has some recipes on her site, or can recommend some (she's very responsive).  Or you could try one of the other good sites/authors like catnutrition.com or Dr. Pierson for suggestions.  If you still feel uncomfortable with the idea, then you don't do it.  It never hurts to research to see what the options are.

2.  You were able to transition her from the c/d kibble to the wet.  It took time, but you did it.  In your opinion, do you think if you tried to verrrry sloooowly mix in a little bit of home-cooked into her wet, that she might eventually eat it and get used to it?

3.   grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 11, 2012, 07:14:15 PM
Thank you for your never ending support Pookie. Transitioning her off kibble wasn't really that difficult, she has always preferred canned food (with the exception of the c/d canned, of course).  Finding a food that didn't make her sick, either with vomiting or aggravating the struvite issue, was the real challenge.

I am too afraid, because of her struvite issues, to make her food.  I would have no way of knowing if she was getting too much phosphurous or magnesium, for example. I don't trust recipes for home made food any more than I trust the PFI. There's no pleasing me, is there?  :-[

However you give very good advice and I am not dismissing it.  I WILL start reading more about homemade cat food (cooked/supplemented).  Maybe, the more I read, the more confident I will feel about trying it.  For ALL of them.

I love my vet but lets face it, she is not a nutrition expert.  She is an excellent diagnostician, and knows a ton about senior care, and specific diseases. She does beautiful dental work, and I feel my cats are as safe as they can possibly be under general anesthesia, with her. But when it comes to feline nutrition, what she knows, she's learned from me. <sigh>

 I am trying not to borrow trouble, until I hear back from my By Nature CSR contact.  Maybe the food I am feeding IS the new formula, and the web site hasn't been updated.  I don't remember if I every actually read the ingredients list on the website for the Organic, when I first researched By Nature I wasn't planning on feeding the organic at all, so when I first picked some up it was at the feed store, where I went by the ingredients listed on the label.  THEN I bought a bunch of cases of it.

But with all the encouragement I am getting here, I will work harder at being more open to home cooking for them.

PS catinfo.org and catnutrition.org have only raw food recipes. This is just not something I am prepared to do.  I may never get there, or maybe I will, but raw is not happening now. I do have an older copy of The Natural Cat by Anita Frazier.  But it is outdated (1990), so I don't trust her recipes either.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on March 11, 2012, 08:15:27 PM
If anyone can get to the bottom of this, MC, you can.  


Just a thought, perhaps Ms Frazier's book contains info about cat nutrition that can never "go in or out of style"?  
Have you ever seen Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins' book, Your Cat?   Would imagine that the info contained in both their books would be "ageless" as they understand feline physiology and cats, themselves,  haven't changed....so these ladies' recipes would most likely be fit for cats whether 30 years ago; 5 years ago, or 20 years in the future  :)

Rooting for you   CatPurr grouphug grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 12, 2012, 12:51:34 PM
I was thinking that, even though they advocate raw feeding, perhaps they could also provide some home-cooked recipes or direct you to some, esp. if you explain that raw just isn't an option at this time.  It couldn't hurt to ask.

If I remember Ms. Frazier's book (and I may be confusing it with another author like Kymythy Shultz), I think she includes garlic in her recipes.   :o  But I may be wrong.  I'm pretty sure Dr. Pitcairn's recipes all include grain of some kind (which I don't understand, esp. since he's a holistic vet).  This may very well make you even more worried, and I don't blame you, hence the suggestion to contact Dr. Pierson, Dr. Hofve or catnutrition (I'm blanking on her name right now).

 grouphug grouphug grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Mo on March 12, 2012, 05:46:34 PM
Okay, I know you don't want to do raw, but I'm just throwing this out there anyway.  http://www.felineinstincts.com/ is a powder that you add to raw meat - I know some people that use it.  It is easy, just follow the instructions on their site.  Ithink all you do is mix it with ground meat and it makes it a balanced meal.

http://itchmoforums.com/making-your-own-pet-food-and-home-remedies/cato-continues-kaffes-work-t6701.0.html has several recipes for home cooking. 

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 12, 2012, 07:39:02 PM
Thank you both so much for your support and help.  Too tired tonight to sort through it all, but I will, I will.  Got to keep this girl healthy, she's doing so well now.

  grouphug grouphug


kittybutterfly kittyball catmilk1 goingtobed
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 13, 2012, 10:54:42 AM
From By Nature:

Quote
Thank you for your inquiry. The ingredients listed on the can are accurate. We're updating our web site to reflect this information. Thank you for bringing this to our attention and we hope you and your cat continue to enjoy By Nature products."

bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

 tootgif tootgif tootgif tootgif tootgif

autumngif autumngif autumngif autumngif autumngif

This does not mean I will become complacent over my struvite kitty's diet.  In fact, I intend to do some heavy research on cooked/supplemented homemade diets, (thanks for the links and support on that) and perhaps vary her diet with homecooked/supplemented, since I have not been able to find even one other commercial food that works for her.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 13, 2012, 12:10:32 PM
 grouphug

That kitty is so lucky to have you!   :)

I started thinking (I know, brace yourselves  Bumpurr1), do certain proteins tend to be associated with crystals?  So I popped on over to www.littlebigcat.com and did a search.  Thought you might find this interesting even though it mentions dogs (hey, they're carnivores, too  :D):

One possible consequence, due to the effect of plant products on urine pH, is increased urinary tract infections. Normal dog urine pH is slightly acidic (from 5.5 to neutral 7.0). Plant products tend to increase pH; struvite crystals and stones form in alkaline urine.

The link to the whole article (from Nov. 2010) is http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/humane-pet-food/

A second article from my search, though not as specific regarding the proteins, but still informative:  http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/urinary-tract-disorders-in-cats/

A little more (from one of Dr. Jean's responses in the comments of that 2nd article I listed):   Directory at http://www.holisticvetlist.com. Many will work long-distance if there’s no one in your area; I would recommend my colleague Dr. Bert Brooks, http://www.cchvs.com.

I don't know if a holistic vet would be an option, but just tossing that idea out there, esp. if you can find one that will work long-distance.

If I get a chance, I'll see what other information I can find.   Bumpurr1
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 13, 2012, 07:23:34 PM
In my post above, what I meant was that I was wondering if certain ANIMAL proteins had a tendency to cause crystals.  I should have known that it's actually the PLANTS that are the problem.   Doh1 :-[ 

From Dr. Hodgkin's book (aka the "cat bible"  ;D) "Your Cat":

"Plant-based cat foods, specifically dry cat foods with their very high amounts of processed cereal and very low moisture content, cause UTI, pure and simple."  She even has a section "How Do Plant-Based Cat Foods Cause Urinary Tract Disease?" where she states "Dry cat foods, with their high plant content, cause a very alkaline urine pH."

I don't know WHY I wondered if certain animal proteins would be the problem . . .  Doh1 Doh1 Doh1 :-[ :-[ :-[

P.S.  MC, I'm sure you knew all this already.  I just wanted to find this out (about animal proteins & crystals) in case you do decide to go home-cooked.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 13, 2012, 08:41:01 PM
I knew that plant based proteins are generally useless to cats.  Though HILLS will tell you differently, and tell you that the c/d KIBBLE uses corn because it is a protein source that is lower in magnesium and phosphorous, or some such blather like that. And vets, unfortunately are still buying into that.

And I have read recently that fruit and vegetable matter in pet food can cause a cat to be more prone to urinary tract problems, but I do not remember where, I've been reading so much information lately.

My struvite girl was on a canned diet when she first began having trouble.  Fancy Feast classics mostly, the turkey, beef, and chicken flavors, but my boy cat would eat ONLY Fancy Feast grilled salmon, so she occasionally had some of that, too. So, her body chemistry is certainly prone to the problem.

 However, I was also adding water to her food, my high mineral content well water.  I really think my water has been one of her main problems all along. BUT, I will continue to search out foods, commercial or homemade recipes, that do not use grains OR fruits OR vegetables, for her. I do so hate to feed her one food and one food only.

But she is really coming along now, I think her body is truly starting to recover from all those years of c/d kibble. bananamiddlechild
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 13, 2012, 09:03:58 PM
By the way. She is getting NO hairball remedy at all, the pumpkin is taking care of any trouble in that way.  Of course, with the change in diet, her shedding has practically disappeared!
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on March 13, 2012, 11:01:01 PM
Wow.    :)  Thanks for sharing your experiences, MC.   This thread is a total  goldmine of info with yours and eveyone's info   kittyball heartbeatgif
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 19, 2012, 07:25:38 AM
  It has been 24 days without regurgitation.  NO hair ball trouble.  I can tell when she is feeling urpy and needs a pepcid, she is getting 1/4 or 1/8 pepcid about every 5 days.  On the days she gets a pepcid, two days later she skips a bowel movement so gets a meal with mineral oil in it.

BIG step today.  I have decided to try varying her diet a little now. I just cannot relax with her on the same food for every meal.  In addition her food has menadione in it.  It's the last ingredient, but still, she is getting it with every meal and I want to break that up a bit.

She's shown an intolerance for carrageenan and she won't eat the Weruva or Soulistic brands.  I have some Nature's Variety here, but the one time I fed her that, early in this challenge, her urine pH shot up to 7.5.

So,  this morning for her second meal I gave her .75 ounces of Castor&Pollux chicken stew.  This is a sideways step because this food has oat fiber, brewers rice and fruits and veggies in it. I don't intend it to be a regular part of her diet.  Just something once a week to give her body a change.  I will continue to look for other 'once a week' foods for her, also, if she does okay today on this one.  I'm a little scared, but have to risk it.

By the way, with this unseasonably warm weather they've been getting some outside time.  I make sure she has an empty stomach when I take them out because her habit is to eat grass then bring it back up, and I don't want her to bring up food too.  HOWEVER, while she is eating just as much grass outside, she is NOT bringing it back up. I find it in her poop the next day.  ;D
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: FurMonster Mom on March 19, 2012, 02:22:10 PM
Awesome news!

 purplekat multistars tiggerbounce

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 20, 2012, 09:12:14 AM
Poor girl regurgitated her second meal today.  I saw her start, but, other than guiding her to the kitchen floor (rather than the carpet) I let her have at it.  A big wad of grass came up with the food.  I guess she wasn't passing all the grass after all. That grass is from Sunday, and there was a lot of it.  Sigh, I wish she had brought it up outside, right after ingesting it.  Come to think of it, it wasn't her that brings the grass right back up, it was my Bridge Angel Boy. I used to give her a wad of hairball remedy after being outside to help push the grass through, I may have to resort to that again.

It's always something!

Still and all, I still feel positive. She did well with the diet change yesterday and seems more interested in her usual food because of it.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 23, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
I am very happy things are going so well.   dance1
I reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly appreciate your posts, MC.  Because of your posts, I have been able to narrow down a problem.  Eliminating foods that contain Carrageenan...our two barfers... barf no more.  Thank you so much.  kisses3  I would NEVER have figured that out on my own. 
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 24, 2012, 06:05:03 AM
I'm so glad Lola, that this has helped you and your kitties.  I've got two still eating mostly foods with carrageenan in them. My struvite girl is the only one who NEVER gets carrageenan.  But she is also the only one getting menadione, since it is in the By Nature Organic.  That food would be darn near 'perfect' if it weren't for the menadione junk (big sigh)

Except for the one grassy regurgitation she is doing great. I took them out yesterday afternoon and again she ate a ton of grass but didn't bring it back up, so I gave her some petromalt when we came back in. She's got to push that grass through, and mineral oil didn't work (that's what I tried last time)
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: The Kittens on March 24, 2012, 07:47:43 AM
Ya don't, want to push the grass thru, it will end up as a wad, stuck in her intestines, and cause a blockage, similiar to hair balls. Kitties can't digest grass. They eat grass, to throw up. If you let her eat grass, you have to let her throw it up.  

Since Prowler is a crystal kitty, and has had bladder/urine issues, and since, I have done extensive research on it, cause, Hills Science Diet, S/D to disolve the crystals and C/D to manage the crystals, as per a prev vet, and his crystals came back, and because I have an awsome vet now.

Grains are the biggest cause of grains, that, is the plant matter, they are referring to. You need to avoid, corn, wheat, corn gluten, wheat gluten, corn flour, wheat flour, maize (they tried to fool us pet parents, mol, didn't work), maize is corn, any grains, any flour.

You also need to keep them flushed out, this is imperative, cannot stress this enuff.  By keeping them flushed out, you are also diluting the urine. Urine that is too concentrated, burns the bladder walls, and causes bladder issues, makes the think they have to go, even when they don't, they are in and out of the box. Thats, how you keep the ph level low.

Thats why wet is better than dry. Thats why, you need to mix their wet, with water, so its real soupy.

For those, that won't eat wet, like Bump, you can still accomplish this, but it is a major pain in the rear, and sometimes he won't finish it, and/or, it upsets his tummy. You give them 1 teaspoon Gerber baby food, chicken or turkey ONLY, mixed with water, so its like a broth, twice a day.  When you mix dry, with water, thats what happens sometimes, but, the only alternative, and this is per my vet.

The reason vets put crystal kitties on Hills Science Diet and Royal Canin SO, other than, the vets are making money off it, and people buy it, because the word "perscription" was attached to it, and because its only sold at vets, makes people think, its better than sliced bread, so the marketing people, did their job, is these foodies are high in salt. What does eating something real salty accomplish? Ya drink more water.

That, is the object of the game, but, it can be accomplished in a safer way, without feeding them a food high in salt, and grains, which defeats the purpose, which leads to more issues and more vet visits, which, is more money, for the companies.  

There is no magic formula in those prescription foods, there is no medicine in those foods. Its just a bunch of ingredients, mixed together, ya have to read the ingredients.    They slapped prescription on the label and only sold it at vets, duh.

Its the same GARBAGE food, take that, Catsfur!

Since Prowler been on a grain free food, no more crystals. Cut his wet back to once a day, he got bladder issues, urine was too concentrated, ph too high, put him back on wet twice a day, no more bladder issues.

If I ever won the Mega Ball Lottery, I would buy Hills and Royal Canin, and make them go on public TV and tell the consumers, they been a lie'n to them, all these years.  The marketing people, I would tell those bastards, they gotta eat, the food, they ben a tellin the public for years, is healthy.   >:( pangif

 TexasFlag bumpgif

Respect The Star  
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 24, 2012, 11:24:38 AM
I'm with Bump.  I thought cats ate grass only to bring up a hair ball that they are unable to pass out the other end.  ??  Changing to an all wet diet, pretty much stopped all hairball issues.  BUT there is always one...one that makes a mad rush to an open door.  She runs for the grass.  She will eat some and almost instantly toss up a furball...and the grass. 
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 24, 2012, 12:40:49 PM
Thanks Bump.  I've been working with this struvite kitty for 7 years, we've been through it all, believe me.  There are several threads on her journey from c/d to canned in this forum. :) It took a long time to find a food with ingredients she could tolerate, that I feel comfortable feeding, and that she will eat.  I've found one, only one, so even though it goes against everything I believe in on feeding cats safely, she is eating only one food, though I am, now, beginning to give her a tiny bit of one other food, once every few days.

She does not get water added to her food, because my water is high mineral well water, which makes her pH go high, and struvite start forming.  I don't trust bottled water, so she gets her moisture in her canned food.

She does not regurgitate the grass up. I wish she would, but she doesn't. There is no choice but for it to go through the other way. I'd prefer she didn't eat the grass, but that would mean making her sit in the house while I am out in the yard with the other cats.  I would never do that to her. The other grass eater also passes grass through her poop most of the time, though yesterday she did regurgitate it, with a tiny bit of fur.  I know they don't digest it.  No one really knows WHY they eat it.  It is thought that it is to "make them throw up".  But the fact remains, that most of the time, she does not bring it back up. So that is why I give her the petromalt, to help her pass it, like she would a hairball. (the pumpkin is taking care of hair balls bananamiddlechild so the only time she gets petromalt is if she eats grass and doesn't bring it back up.  They don't go outside every day, usually only once or twice a week so this is not as bad as it might sound)

PS I don't mean to sound arrogant or know-it-all about the struvite issue, or dismiss your information, it is useful and important and may help someone else reading this board. Plus, I am sure there is always more for me to learn..  But I really truly have researched and figured and tested until I am blue in the face, over her diet. I have, tentatively, found something that is working for her, and I pray it continues, but I doubt I will ever stop worrying and watching and sticking pH strips under her when she pees.  funny2

The c/d kibble did not ever make her drink more water, she is a very poor drinker, but it DID control her urine pH and the struvite formation.  The prescription foods do what they are meant to do.  The problem is, because of the horrible ingredients,  at what cost to the cat's general health? I kept her on it because it was working for her and told myself that when it stopped working her for I would stop feeding it.  Well last summer the regurgitation and constipation began, and as it got worse I began taking steps to get her off it.  She's now been off it, completely for....almost 3 months I think, though it took time to find a canned food that works for her. Anyway, I've already posted all that in this and other threads so won't start repeating myself any more. HeadButt
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 24, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
I don't think you sound arrogant at all!!  Doubt anyone thinks that.  I see this thread as a conversation...such as one we all would be having, if we were yapping to each other in real life. 

Oh, and feel free to repeat yourself, your experience, etc. as often as the need arises... in any thread.  Never know when or what may sink in for some, or who reads what thread.  For me, personally, I need all the help I can get!   Bumpurr1
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: The Kittens on March 24, 2012, 06:15:26 PM
Didn't at all take offense at your post, never thought you meant it that way, like Lola said.  We have this board, so we can have, a conversation, like Lola said, and we can disagree, not like on Catsfur, mol.   funny2

In the horsie world, we always say, what works for one horse, may not work, for another, its the same with kitties.  There is always that one. I have one, Bump. He won't eat wet, he only likes Blue Wilderness, will not eat any other grain free food, and will not eat L-Lysine or vitaminys.  I know, you should not mix water with their dry. But, with Bump, thats the only alternative, most of the time, it works for him, sometimes, it upsets his tummy, no other way to keep him flushed out.  Then factor in, all his HCM issues, mol, so ya, I do understand.

You have to do, what works for your kitty, even if it goes against the grain, per say, mol.

Your information may help someone, who is in a similiar situation, we have this board, so we can share stories and information. 

One thing, I can tell you, for a fact, don't be a goin' to Lola's housey, and expect to eat any TG dinner, mol, not if ya wants to watch the TG games.   :P :-* Bumpurr1 TexasFlag bumpgif football1

Respect The Star
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on March 24, 2012, 09:16:46 PM

The reason vets put crystal kitties on Hills Science Diet and Royal Canin SO, other than, the vets are making money off it, and people buy it, because the word "perscription" was attached to it, and because its only sold at vets, makes people think, its better than sliced bread, so the marketing people, did their job, is these foodies are high in salt. What does eating something real salty accomplish? Ya drink more water.

That, is the object of the game, but, it can be accomplished in a safer way, without feeding them a food high in salt, and grains, which defeats the purpose, which leads to more issues and more vet visits, which, is more money, for the companies.  

There is no magic formula in those prescription foods, there is no medicine in those foods. Its just a bunch of ingredients, mixed together, ya have to read the ingredients.    They slapped prescription on the label and only sold it at vets, duh.

Its the same GARBAGE food, take that, Catsfur!

Since Prowler been on a grain free food, no more crystals. Cut his wet back to once a day, he got bladder issues, urine was too concentrated, ph too high, put him back on wet twice a day, no more bladder issues.

If I ever won the Mega Ball Lottery, I would buy Hills and Royal Canin, and make them go on public TV and tell the consumers, they been a lie'n to them, all these years.  The marketing people, I would tell those bastards, they gotta eat, the food, they ben a tellin the public for years, is healthy.   >:( pangif

 TexasFlag bumpgif

Respect The Star  

 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 clapping1 DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on March 25, 2012, 02:57:51 PM
She does not get water added to her food, because my water is high mineral well water, which makes her pH go high, and struvite start forming.  I don't trust bottled water, so she gets her moisture in her canned food.

I just had an idea:  I wonder if you mixed your water with distilled water, if that would reduce/dilute the minerals in your water enough that you could mix it in her food without any problems.  Maybe 1 part regular to 1 part distilled, and depending on how her ph changes, increase or reduce the amount of regular or distilled water in the mix.   :-\

I have, tentatively, found something that is working for her, and I pray it continues, but I doubt I will ever stop worrying and watching and sticking pH strips under her when she pees.  funny2

So THAT'S how you do it!  I wondered how you were testing with the strips!  I'm amazed she let's you do that while she's peeing. 
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 25, 2012, 08:43:49 PM
I just had an idea:  I wonder if you mixed your water with distilled water, if that would reduce/dilute the minerals in your water enough that you could mix it in her food without any problems.  Maybe 1 part regular to 1 part distilled, and depending on how her ph changes, increase or reduce the amount of regular or distilled water in the mix.   :-\



Thanks Pookie.  I think you have suggested that to me before, along with many other excellent ideas and thoughts. I'm glad you reminded me, because if I do ever feel that she needs more moisture than she is getting with her canned diet, I will try that.  Right now she is peeing 3 to 4 times a day, nice normal sized pees with a pH between 6-6.5 most of the time.

When she was on the c/d she only peed twice a day, and it drove me crazy, because she would hold it so long and I knew that wasn't good for her.

Quote
So THAT'S how you do it!  I wondered how you were testing with the strips!  I'm amazed she let's you do that while she's peeing. 

Since her diagnosis she has always been very good about peeing in front of me, and I always thank her for showing me that she is peeing.  It doesn't bother her at all when I hover and slip the strip under her, it takes less than a second.  (she does not like me to hover when she poops though)

One of my other cats doesn't mind me slipping a strip under her either but also doesn't like me watching her poop. Conversely,  Little Cat is a closet pee-er ( mean she won't let me watch her pee, not that she pees in a closet), but does not mind if I watch her poop.

Funny things.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 25, 2012, 11:28:46 PM
I'm just stunned by all that you accomplish!
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on March 30, 2012, 07:27:46 PM
I'm just stunned by all that you accomplish!


Aw, thanks Lola!   HeadButt   :-* 

Things are going GREAT.  I am so happy!  No pepcid has been needed in 2 weeks.  No mineral oil in 6 days, nice regular poops.  Twice I have found little wet spots with a trace of food, which means she has burped and a little food came up with the burp, but she has obviously learned that she can burp without bringing up the whole meal.

AND, twice in the past week there have been two occasions when she had to go more than 9 hours without food, and she was okay, when she did eat.  Once was 9 hours and 20 minutes, and today was 10 hours exactly, but she did NOT regurgitate after eating her first small 'after-fast' meal.

I do think her body has really almost gone beyond "recovering"  into "recovered". bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

PS She is still getting the slight variation in diet, with every two out of three days one meal being the Castor&Pollux Chicken and vegetable casserole.  It has oats, spinach and other veggies, but what it DOESN'T have is carrageenan or menadione bisulfates, so I am letting her have it.  It has not changed her urine pH or caused any vomiting or regurgitation. And she LOVES it.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on March 31, 2012, 12:43:35 AM
 fireworks1 newyear1 multistars tiggerbounce coolgif2 tootgif
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 01, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
Her coat is so nice, lovely and soft and thick, with very little shedding, and with a SHINE to it. It was so dull and coarse and always shedding, on that c/d kibble. Granted, she never was on the canned c/d so I can't make a comparison there.  Canned would have been better than the kibble, but even the canned has pretty horrible ingredients.



  and I am seeing WAY more of these:     kittyball  kittybutterfly  HeadButt

I am soooo HAPPY!!!!!
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: CarnivorousCritter on April 01, 2012, 02:44:53 PM
 love1 love1  LOVE reading these updates, MC!!    :-* :-*
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on April 01, 2012, 09:39:33 PM
The changes from any dry to wet are HUGE.  IMHO

The ones I remember:
No dandruff
No runny eye boogers
LOTS more energy
Coats that I thought looked pretty before...huge change.
No barfing.

I'm really sooooo truly happy for you and your girl! 

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 09, 2012, 08:08:39 AM
She's doing the Side-Ways Prance!  Well...it's not much of a prance, more of a..trot.  But when she was a young cat she always did that tail-up-and-crooked-body-arched-side-ways little prance that means Play with me play with me! I figured she outgrew it is all.

But nope, she is feeling so great on her improved diet that she is prancing sideways at me to get me to play with her!

 dancingbanana BanWooHoo bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Shadow on April 09, 2012, 12:34:41 PM
 BanWooHoo BanWooHoo BanWooHoo woohoogif happydance1 multistars
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on April 09, 2012, 02:44:19 PM
She's doing the Side-Ways Prance!  Well...it's not much of a prance, more of a..trot.  But when she was a young cat she always did that tail-up-and-crooked-body-arched-side-ways little prance that means Play with me play with me! I figured she outgrew it is all.

But nope, she is feeling so great on her improved diet that she is prancing sideways at me to get me to play with her!

 dancingbanana BanWooHoo bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild


How ADORABLE.   HeadButt The side-ways prance is sooooo funny.  I haven't seen any of ours do that in a long time!
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on April 10, 2012, 09:28:18 AM
 thumbsup1 thumbsup1 DrLisaPiersonWorthy    spring1 CatPurr purplekat happydance1 yaygif tiggerbounce dancingbanana BanWooHoo bananamiddlechild fireworks1 fireworks1


Congratulations!  I'm so happy for you and your kitty!
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 10, 2012, 07:42:09 PM
Two regurgitations today. DARN it ALL. No fur in either of them.  I have resorted to the Petromalt.  I told her she is getting no more food tonight.  She will get another big blob of hairball remedy at bed time, and a pepcid in the morning because I know she will have a lot of acid built up from not getting food.  But she's obviously got a honkin big hairball in there, in spite of the pumpkin. Since she can't bring it up, it will have to go out the other way, and the mineral oil alone just does not seem effective against hairballs.

So.....I'll get her straightened out with the hairball remedies, then go back to relying on the pumpkin.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on April 11, 2012, 09:22:53 AM
I'm sorry.   :(
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 11, 2012, 11:47:26 AM
Thanks, but what the hey, you're struggling with a similar issue, as is Lola.  At least none of us struggle alone.  The good news is that I am sure this is "just" a hairball issue, I do think her body has recovered from the years of awful food. If she has to have the hairball gunk, along with the pumpkin, so be it.  But at least she won't need it as often, at least I hope not.

 She's actually been letting me run a comb down her back two or three times at a session, which is an incredible step forward, so that will help a little. 

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 13, 2012, 08:04:00 AM
Still regurgitating.  But it's supper now, not breakfast.  So last night she again got double doses of hair ball remedy, instead of her final meals and a pepcid this morning, and she kept her breakfast down.

 Guess I'm going to have to keep her on the hairball remedy for the shedding season, in spite of the pumpkin.  So Frustrating.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on April 13, 2012, 08:41:23 AM
 grouphug grouphug grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on April 13, 2012, 11:38:10 AM
The hairball remedy and Pepcid can't be worse than some of the ingredients in commercial food.  I know that is choosing the lessor of the evils, but... :-\

 kisses3
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 14, 2012, 06:43:32 AM
Thanks for your support you guys.  This morning she had her pepcid and first meal and...BURPED instead of regurgitating.  All along, I think her problem is always that she needs to burp, but to her it feels like she has to bring it all up, from the regurgitating c/d habit.  So hopefully a few more days on the pepcid will get her burping instead of regurgitating again and we can get back on track.

But I'm going to continue with the hair ball gunk, maybe she just won't need it as often.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Shadow on April 15, 2012, 01:50:31 AM
I may have more info about this coconut oil for cats. Waiting for some refrences. It is something to do with the Long chain fatty acids being bad, not Medium chain fatty acids. I will post this in the Coconut Oil discussion that we had ok :)
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 15, 2012, 08:44:22 AM
Coconut oil is BAD for cats!  I have a thread here on it somewhere.  I had started using it for my cats, right before my Sweet Boy died of cancer.  I was horrified that I might have caused the illness by giving him the coconut oil.

Let me find the thread.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 15, 2012, 08:52:54 AM
I am  POSITIVE I posted these before, in this forum, but cannot find the thread so here they are again, my vet got this information and printed it out for me

I THINK she got the info from the Vet school web pages at UC Davis, but the information may have been from a restricted site (restricted to veterinarians I mean) medium chain oils should not be used in cats

(https://parenting-furkids.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi693.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv291%2Fbrightlight44%2F1e9d3ede-1.jpg&hash=4f761e8b52a0c979c6a0810be21f7d0ffab85566)

(https://parenting-furkids.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi693.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv291%2Fbrightlight44%2F1e9d3ede.jpg&hash=636f229f5261a13e13654535d2a1ef36d6ee2c6e)
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Shadow on April 15, 2012, 11:54:40 AM
Hi MC yes I have shared those with someone and they also found more info about it on the vet site.
Is the coconut oil you used pure organic extra virgin? Still waiting for more info from a friend.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 15, 2012, 12:59:50 PM
Yes.  this brand which was recommended to me in another cat forum.

http://www.amazon.com/Nutiva-Organic-Virgin-Coconut-15-Ounce/dp/B001EO5Q64/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1334512468&sr=8-2

My vet feels that the short time my cats were on the coconut oil had no bearing on his cancer. The opinion of the oncologist was that the cancer had been in him for awhile, there is no knowing what caused it to suddenly blossom into what it became at the end. The girls had no adverse reactions for the short time they were on it, though none of them have had blood-work yet, since then. My boy had a lifetime history of illness, including the dental disease resorptive lesions (FORL), seizure disorder, herpes eyes and what I called his periodic  "hair ball sickness".

Can you share the additional info with us?
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on April 17, 2012, 07:58:46 AM
Thanks for your support you guys.  This morning she had her pepcid and first meal and...BURPED instead of regurgitating.  All along, I think her problem is always that she needs to burp, but to her it feels like she has to bring it all up, from the regurgitating c/d habit.  So hopefully a few more days on the pepcid will get her burping instead of regurgitating again and we can get back on track.

But I'm going to continue with the hair ball gunk, maybe she just won't need it as often.

Okay.  I've got her back on hairball remedy.  Every three days.  Stopped the pepcid.  She is burping, but keeping the food down.   When she burps I tell her how wonderful and clever she is to burp instead of regurgitate.

She probably could benefit from continued use of the pepcid, but I just don't want her on it long term. I meant to give her some this morning but forgot, and she burped on her own.

Sunday I had them out in the yard and she gobbled the grass up and then brought it back up.  I wish she would always bring the grass back up.  I worry that it is sitting in her stomach, when she doesn't.  The other grass eater did not bring hers up either, but she never has stomach problems of any kind, and her constipation has been solved with the pumpkin.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 04, 2012, 01:25:59 PM
Gosh I just get so discouraged sometimes.  She's still regurgitating several times a week.  There is no pattern to it. No special time of day, no particular span of hours in between meals, no particular food (she only gets two), some times fur in it sometimes not, sometimes projectile, sometimes not. She is having daily bowel movements normally, her urine pH is staying between 6.25 and 6.75.

I wish I could learn to handle it better, but I get soooo upset and lose control and cry like an idiot.  Part of the problem is because she runs as she pukes, so she leaves a long trail of it all over the freaking carpets.  In spite of regular shampooing this apartment smells like a dump, because there is so much puke in the carpets. And of course cleaning it up every time is a major chore.

She has her 6 month check up next week.  I'm going to push for an x ray to see if there is something weird about her esophagus.  And if the vet wants her on pepcid (which helps, but I hate using it) the vet will have to agree to provide me with B-12 syringes. If it's a motility issue we're looking at cisapride, I suppose.  I just feel so so so low about this.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Pookie on June 04, 2012, 01:54:50 PM
 grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug CatPurr CatPurr

I'm so sorry.  Just out of curiosity, are you still giving pumpkin?  Pookie was still having hairballs so I've had to keep him on the pumpkin, though now it's once a day instead of twice.  If she still gets the pumpkin, then I'm stumped.   :(

Is there a holistic vet near you that you could try?  I know they're hard to find, depending on where you're located.

I wish I could learn to handle it better, but I get soooo upset and lose control and cry like an idiot.  Part of the problem is because she runs as she pukes, so she leaves a long trail of it all over the freaking carpets.  In spite of regular shampooing this apartment smells like a dump, because there is so much puke in the carpets. And of course cleaning it up every time is a major chore.

Been there, still doing that on occasion. It wears you down, esp. when you don't know how to help.  It's very upsetting to see our furkids having problems.  For what it's worth, you're not alone, sweetie.  We're here for you.   grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 04, 2012, 07:43:33 PM
grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug CatPurr CatPurr

I'm so sorry.  Just out of curiosity, are you still giving pumpkin?  Pookie was still having hairballs so I've had to keep him on the pumpkin, though now it's once a day instead of twice.  If she still gets the pumpkin, then I'm stumped.   :(

Is there a holistic vet near you that you could try?  I know they're hard to find, depending on where you're located.

Been there, still doing that on occasion. It wears you down, esp. when you don't know how to help.  It's very upsetting to see our furkids having problems.  For what it's worth, you're not alone, sweetie.  We're here for you.   grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes GoodVibes

Thank you SO MUCH for your support.  When I came home tonight the stench of the vomit was still very strong.  Regurgitated food should not smell that bad, which tells me that her earlier meal was still churning in her stomach and came up, too.  So...this seems more like a digestive issue.

yes, she is still getting the pumpkin.  She gets one tablespoon split between three meals a day.  She is getting hairball gunk every four or five days.  Early this morning there was a puddle of vomit with bits of fur mats in it, which I suspected was hers. There was no fur in the regurgitation.  She kept the nugget of S&C down and her first supper meal down, too. I had given her a pepcid (1/4 tablet) after her regurgitation.

She gets a probiotic every night.

So, maybe it's not an esophagus problem, maybe it's still the same old issue, her system is just so messed up from all those years on the c/d she is still producing too much acid in her tummy at times.

If my vet suggests another prescription food I'll strangle her. funny2

Wait till she hears I'm starting to feed raw, a little.   ;).  Well the freeze dried/rehydrated version anyway.  Actually, I don't even know what her thoughts are on raw, we've never discussed it.  But we will be discussing it, next week!

PS No holistic vets within a hundred miles or more.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on June 05, 2012, 06:37:48 PM
I don't have anything to add, but...    grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 05, 2012, 07:40:36 PM
I don't have anything to add, but...    grouphug

Thank you Lola!  I love and appreciate all the support and understanding I get here. This is a great place to talk about food issues. No pressure, lots of feed back and support.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: FurMonster Mom on June 07, 2012, 10:16:40 AM
First of all,

 grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug grouphug

I've been there. 
My first kitty, had a very similar issue.
The puking began when she was only about 5, and it was fairly infrequent, so I chalked it up to hairballs, par for the course.
As she got older, it became more frequent.  By the time she was 10, it was nearly every day.
The cleanup every day was so frustrating (carpets and puke... yeah, I relate to that).
And I was nearly a wreck knowing she wasn't holding down her meals and getting any nutrition.
I was such an idiot back then.
Took her to the vet multiple times.  Ran every test we could think of.  The most we could come up with was stomach inflammation.
Slowly, but surely, she wasted away, and I finally helped her cross the bridge.

The vet, being just as confused and frustrated, asked if he could do a necropsy.
I don't mean to be alarming, but what he discovered really surprised me... and explained everything.
She had a tumor, right at a small junction where the bile ducts and intestinal tubes met at the stomach.  It slowly grew until it was blocking almost all egress from the stomach.  Since it was at the junction, it didn't really show on the scans.

I know it's not the most heartwarming story, but it taught me not to take anything for granted.  Keep looking.  Expand the search, if necessary.  I still wonder, if the scans hadn't been so focused on one area, maybe we would have caught the darn thing earlier.

I'm so sorry you are going through this puking business. 
Truly hope you find the solution.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 09, 2012, 08:37:11 AM
Thanks FMM. Believe me, tumors, growths and cancers hover in the back of my mind all the time.  However, I am still pretty sure that it is 7 years of corn heavy c/d kibble that has messed her up.

If she was loosing weight, vomiting every meal, unable to poop, lethargic, I would be pushing for much more testing.  But I have to consider her and what she can handle, too.  She goes berserk when caged in stainless steel.  And that's where she would be, if she has to have a lot of testing.  Caged in stainless steel. So I have to proceed very slowly with her.  Any other cat would have had all the test available done by now.  But this one......I have to take a more conservative approach.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on June 10, 2012, 02:24:11 PM
FMM,
Sorry about the situation with your first kitty.   :(  You weren't an idiot, btw.   :-*

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 10, 2012, 08:50:57 PM
FMM,
Sorry about the situation with your first kitty.   :(  You weren't an idiot, btw.   :-*



I agree with Lola. You weren't an idiot.  We learn as we go on.  No one can know everything. And you did everything possible for her. Stuff happens sometimes.   grouphug
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: FurMonster Mom on June 10, 2012, 09:22:31 PM
FMM,
Sorry about the situation with your first kitty.   :(  You weren't an idiot, btw.   :-*

I agree with Lola. You weren't an idiot.  We learn as we go on.  No one can know everything. And you did everything possible for her. Stuff happens sometimes.   grouphug

Thanks guys.  I didn't mean to hijack.  Just... sharing hard lessons.  Cats3

... I have to proceed very slowly with her.  Any other cat would have had all the test available done by now.  But this one......I have to take a more conservative approach.
Fair enough.  You know your girl better than anyone. catmilk1
Is she getting the Stella and Chewy's with your other furkids?

.

Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 11, 2012, 06:56:23 AM


Thanks guys.  I didn't mean to hijack.  Just... sharing hard lessons.  Cats3
Fair enough.  You know your girl better than anyone. catmilk1
Is she getting the Stella and Chewy's with your other furkids?



Pfft, that wasn't a hijack, it was completely relevant and I am very grateful for your input.

She is getting the Stella&Chewy's as a garnish over her meals that has pumpkin in them. She really hates the pumpkin, and has started resisting eating it.  But now, with a little S&C sprinkled over it,  she eats the serving right up.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on June 11, 2012, 06:33:53 PM
Conversations are often going to change directions.  That is just the way life is.  If PF ever has 500 members...we can worry about such things then.  For now...If an OP is "concerned" about a thread going OT, the OP can bring it back to the original subject matter.  Fair enough?  ;D

All of you apologize tooooooo much.   :-*   
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 11, 2012, 08:08:44 PM
Conversations are often going to change directions.  That is just the way life is.  If PF ever has 500 members...we can worry about such things then.  For now...If an OP is "concerned" about a thread going OT, the OP can bring it back to the original subject matter.  Fair enough?  ;D

All of you apologize tooooooo much.   :-*   


Sorry.  Bumpurr1   funny2

I guess we just want to be careful of one another's feelings. You just never know if you're stepping on someone's toes.  We're a small group here and don't all know each other really well yet.

Some forums have such stringent rules about thread drift it's a wonder any thread gets past two or three posts.  Other forums, no one cares about drift at all.  My own opinion is, a little drift is not always a bad thing.  Unless it's someone trying to stir up trouble, and we all know those types.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 15, 2012, 09:57:01 AM
She had her check up.  Vet agrees with me that, since she is not losing weight, and everything else is good (pending lab results for blood and urine) I should continue to use the pepcid as needed and see how she gets on.

She went 9 days without any regurgitation, two of those days she had a pepcid, then this morning she regurgitated her second serving of breakfast, with fur in it.

So I am content with where things are for her, for now.  I did say to the vet that if I had to start using the pepcid every day I was going to ask her to prescribe B-12 shots every 2 weeks and she said that would be okay.  Vet marveled over her soft coat and I said (smugly, I confess) that that was the result of getting her off the c/d kibble and onto a canned diet.  She wanted to know the brand I was feeding so I told her and saw her write it down. :)

I'm thinking there are two things going on here.  She has always struggled with hair balls especially this time of year, and I think that's part of the issue.  She is, by the way, allowing me to comb her now, a little bit.  This is a HUGE breakthrough for her. I want a separate thread for that though, but I think the combing is helping, given the 9 days between regurgitations this time.

The other thing is, I think her system just got so totally messed up all those years on the c/d kibble, that she is always going to be prone to regurgitation somewhat. It's just the way it's going to be.  If I can keep it to less than once a week, I will try to learn to accept that.

I'm going to start a new thread about how I caught her urine and I'll post all lab results, when I hear, in that thread.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on June 15, 2012, 11:17:50 PM
MC,
You have probably already mentioned this, but... does she regurgitate shortly after eating, or hours later?  What is the reason you don't want to give her pepcid every day?  I'm one that prefers not to take anything every day if at ALL possible...is your thinking along those lines as well?
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Middle Child on June 16, 2012, 06:16:49 AM
MC,
You have probably already mentioned this, but... does she regurgitate shortly after eating, or hours later?  What is the reason you don't want to give her pepcid every day?  I'm one that prefers not to take anything every day if at ALL possible...is your thinking along those lines as well?

She brings the food back up immediately.  Pepcid causes constipation and B-12 deficiency and I hate putting chemicals into her unless they are absolutely necessary. So I watch her carefully and try to know when I think she might need one.

She'll have to have one today because I am going to be gone longer than nine hours, and that is about her limit for going without food, without regurgitating. I'll give it to her as soon as I walk in the door tonight, with a small amount of food, to break the fast.  Then wait a half hour and feed them all.  The other two don't get sick from waiting 10 hours.  Not yet anyway.
Title: Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
Post by: Lola on June 17, 2012, 01:55:10 PM
Pepcid causes constipation and B-12 deficiency and I hate putting chemicals into her unless they are absolutely necessary.

Gotcha.  Thanks.