Author Topic: Pookie's Vet Visit  (Read 76552 times)

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Offline Pookie

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Pookie's Vet Visit
« on: September 22, 2014, 04:52:27 PM »
Yes, you read it right:  I took Pookie to the vet today.  Over the last 1-2 months, he's had a couple of hairballs that had what looked like pieces of a tooth in them.  He's already missing one of his lower fangs.   :(  I know it may be too late at this point to stop any dental issues he has, but I felt I had to find out one way or another.  So I took him to the vet.

This isn't the one I'd been to previously.  This was actually the first vet I ever brought him and his sister to, when they were getting their first shots.  I had liked the woman, but when I went back for their next round it was an older gentleman, and I didn't care for him.  I was told he'd be retiring and the first vet would be back, but they didn't know when, so I went to a different practice.  If I knew then what I know now, I'd have waited, since frankly I don't think the world would have ended if they didn't get the next round on time.

I will say, there was NO prescription food to be seen in the waiting area.   thumbsup1 thumbsup1  That is the first time I've ever been to a vet where there wasn't some prescription food on display.  They do sell it, but at least it's not where the clients can see it.  There were other positives, which I won't go into, other than she didn't give me too much of a hard time about his rabies being out of date.

He has a lot of tartar on the back teeth, and several in the front have broken.   :(  It is possible that if nothing is done, they'll abcess.   :(  She gave me a quote for the dental surgery, and I plan to research some of this stuff, but if any of you have experience with these products, feel free to share:

convenia (antibiotic, I think)
buprenorphine  (pain killer)
onsior (I forget)

I had them do a Rabies titer while he was there, even though the state doesn't recognize those as valid.  I figured it's just good to have that information available.  It should take about 2 weeks to get the results.

He also weighs 15 lbs!   :o  The last time I weighed him, which was a year ago or more, he was 13 lbs.  I do not feed anything with carbs -- even his treats are dehydrated raw.  He gets 1 5.5 oz can/day, plus a bedtime snack of raw, and usually 3 small duck treats in the timer feeder to help keep his tummy calm during the afternoon.  I asked about diabetes, though personally I don't think that's possible in a cat that's not getting carbs, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.  She indicated that it could be possible, though unlikely.

So I could also use your suggestions on how to help him slim down a bit.  Definitely exercise, but do I cut back on the canned?  I don't want to stop his bedtime raw snacks.  Could it be the canned pumpkin I was giving for hairballs?  I would think that's mostly water, but maybe the fiber helped add some weight?  Could it be the duck treats?  I know they're higher in fat, but I use them because they crumble easily (as a topper for the canned that's not his favorite) and because he seems to tolerate them better (in the feeder) than the chicken PureBites.  If I pull the duck, I need to find something else to use as a topper that he can tolerate.

I happened to mention his hairballs, and the vomiting issues he'd had in the past (and sometimes present), and she asked if he'd had an endoscopy to diagnose IBD.  I said no, though his sister did.  She believes, rightly so, that the vomiting isn't normal, and suggested a food diary (which I'd brought with me), but I hadn't found a pattern.  I explained that usually these days he brings his food up for 2 reasons:  a hairball or something is blocking him, or I'm home late or slept in and he's VERY excited about his food.  I give very small portions and spread them out to make sure he'll keep his food down, but it's not always successful.

Thankfully, she's ok with handling one issue at a time, and my priority is his teeth, but my sense is that either we identify the food allergies he has, or he could go on prednisolone.  She thinks cats handle that very well.  She mentioned that the vomiting could eventually lead to (I think) intestinal lymphoma.  I didn't mention it, but if I remember correctly, long-term use of steroids can lead to other issues.  (I'm blanking on those at the moment, but I think it's reduced immune function).  I am NOT a fan of using the steroids.  I have wondered, though, about cats like Pookie or MC's Mazy, as to why they still have issues after removing the kibble.  When you read Dr. Pierson's site or Dr. Hodgkins' book, you get the impression that removing the kibble solves the problem permanently.  I have yet to see anything, other than IBD Kitties, that addresses cats that have gone grain-free and yet still have problems.

Overall, I think the visit went well.  They gave me estimates for the dental surgery, and unless the above drugs give me major cause of concern, it needs to be done.  I don't want him hurting any more than he probably is, though he hides it well.  There have been times where he was being picky and I wondered if it hurt him to eat (even though it's canned food).

One final note:  at least 2 of the staff told me how handsome he is!   :)

P.S.  Apparently, if a cat is presented with vomiting issues, the first thing she recommends is pulling the kibble.  (She raw feeds herself).  So if I had just waited for the other guy to retire, maybe, just maybe, when my furkids problems started, they could have been spared 5 years of waiting for me to figure it out on my own because this vet would have solved the problem before it got to be a major issue.   :(  Oh, how I wish . . .
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 05:11:29 PM »
Congrats on the somewhat good visit! It's always nice to hear:

Quote
One final note:  at least 2 of the staff told me how handsome he is!

Canned pumpkin is something between 25-30% carbs. I can't remember now. It's been a while since I got any for the boys b/c I read the label one day, and it was so high in carbs compared to a lot of other veggies I could give them for lunch.

I don't like prednisone for human or animal. I won't give it or take it except for very short time periods. It causes osteoporosis in humans for a fact. I can't imagine animals being any different with it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 05:13:41 PM by DeeDee »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 05:16:16 PM »
Thanks, Dee!  So you're thinking the pumpkin helped "bulk him up?"  I was giving him a cube every night for most of the summer (and possibly spring), since even 2 lecithin caps just couldn't handle the fur.  He hasn't had pumpkin in a few days, though, since I'm not getting as much fur off of him when I comb him.  I think I have 2 cubes left, and may use them up and stop until the next "hairball season."

Meanwhile, I'm researching the drugs on the estimate and have ruled out Convenia.  I LOVE Dr. Pierson!  http://www.catinfo.org/?link=convenia   HeadButt HeadButt HeadButt  DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy

On to the next one on the list . . .
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 05:19:15 PM »
Thanks, Dee!  So you're thinking the pumpkin helped "bulk him up?"

I think it's also quite high in sugars now that I think about it. I can't remember exactly why I quit giving it to them now. But it was the carbs or sugars. But I looked and couldn't find an extra can in the pantry to see the label again.


Meanwhile, I'm researching the drugs on the estimate and have ruled out Convenia.  I LOVE Dr. Pierson!  http://www.catinfo.org/?link=convenia   


I've heard it in more than one place that Convenia was bad.

"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 06:34:26 PM »
Okay, as I continue to research the other 2 meds, I'm not sure what to do.  Buprenorphine is an opiate painkiller, and Onsior is an NSAID, which usually aren't given to cats.  I haven't found anything that out and out makes either of them sound like they should definitely NOT be used, but . . . do you all have preferences for painkillers and anti-inflammatories that might be better options?

Thanks in advance!   :-* :-* HeadButt HeadButt
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 07:13:50 PM »
Can cats take Tramadol? That worked well with Dannyboy after surgery. I don't think it's an opiate or NSAID. I'm not sure though. But it worked well.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Lola

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 08:57:49 PM »
Woulda, coulda, shoulda... can't change the past, and beating yourself up doesn't help the present.  :)

My two cents... no to the convenia.  Very controversial...and there are other options.  You may also want to research about cats being given antibiotics with dentals.  Is it really needed?  None of mine got an antibiotic.  And there were MAJOR issues with some.  Was my vet right...I dunno.  I had to take antibiotics, when my abscessed wisdom teeth were removed.  But I don't take antibiotics for a root canal or a "normal" pulled tooth. 
I'm fairly sure buprenorphine is good to go. Mine were given Bupriniex for pain.
onsior... no clue. 

As far as Pookie's weight....If you want to keep feeding everything else, I would cut down on the wet food.  To me, it does seem that he is eating a little more than needed.  How active is he?

I do believe raw is the "answer" to IBD...in MOST cases.  There is always the exception to the rule.  Also, (and I'm just pulling this out of my rear)... I think as long as you (or me, or anyone) are feeding anything commercial, to a cat that may have extensive kibble gut damage...  raw can't fix the problem completely.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:05:10 PM by Lola »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 05:47:18 AM »
Convenia - no never, not in my cats. Convenia stays in the body for 65 days.  This means, even if your cat has a reaction to it, there is nothing that can be done for the cat.

buprenex, very safe, easy to give, effective short term use pain killer. Very safe for cats.  I have seen some reports of negative reactions (hyperactivity mainly) but I have used buprenex many times with my cats and have always been pleased with the results.

It is squirted into the mouth, absorbed by the membranes there, so very easy to give.  It begins to show effect in about 20-30 minutes.  Cat will be a bit stoned.  Check dosage before giving, from my reading in forums it seems some vets tend to dose too high. .1 ML (point one) is usual, smaller cats need .05 ml.

I would not allow any NSAID use in my cats.  there are none safe.

Yes, cats can have tramadol.  Another pain option is torbugesic. I have used both of these, also.

Some cats (such as my Mazy cat) are so messed up by kibble that they never fully recover. Mazy cat is much improved, but her motility is so poor that she is always going to have trouble. And yes, i do worry about intestinal lymphoma, with all the puking she does.  It is something I have girded myself to face and accept, if it happens.

Cats can gain weight on any diet.  5.5 ounces of canned, plus the treats, is a lot.  My cats eat way less than that, with the exception of Queen Eva who is still maintaining her 7 pounds on almost 5 ounces a day.  Mazy (10 pounds) maintains on 3.8 ounces a day, and Jennie (9 pounds) maintains on 3.7 ounces a day.  This is canned/raw combo.

Oops just looked at the clock.

Offline Pookie

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 09:09:40 AM »
I'm leaning towards the canned pumpkin as being at least partially responsible for his weight gain.  I hadn't weighed him for a long time, so there's no way to know for sure, but he was getting 1 cube every night for the entire summer and some of the spring.  I didn't like doing it, but even with 2 caps of lecithin/day and 1 cube every other day, he was still having hairballs.  So I fed it daily, though he didn't always eat the whole cube.

As far as Pookie's weight....If you want to keep feeding everything else, I would cut down on the wet food.  To me, it does seem that he is eating a little more than needed.  How active is he?

You know what's funny?  When I was going through Your Cat last night, it sounds like he's either getting the right amount or not enough, unless I misunderstood.  Same when I looked at catinfo.  If I fed what they suggested, he'd weight a lot more.

So here's my question:  if I wanted to cut back on the canned, what do I do with the rest of it?  I think it can be refrigerated for up to 3 days?  Or can I freeze it?  I don't want to toss it, as this stuff isn't cheap.  I suppose I could also weigh the tenders, hearts and gizzards, which I haven't been doing (I've only weighed the Rad Cat when portioning).

Treats . . . I don't know what to do about that.  I put 3 small ones in the feeder so his stomach isn't totally empty when I come home.  It seemed to help the regurgitating, but the PureBites chicken seemed to irritate (they're much drier than the duck) or else he can't tolerate them.  I do have rabbit treats, but they're hard and I think they hurt his mouth so I've stopped giving them for the time being.  I've tried dehydrated goat milk, catnip, and other things as a topper with no luck, and the duck treats don't always work, either.  I haven't tried the FortiFlora.  The duck probably isn't helping his weight, either, since it's pretty fatty.

He seems fairly active, but then I'm not home for most of the day.  "Hunting season" is starting again (I've already heard mice in the walls), so that might help, too.  He recently discover the broken Da Bird in the closet, so we've had a couple of play sessions with that.  I just realized . . . I wonder if he's also put on weight since he's become an "only child."   :-\

Thanks for the feedback on Convenia and the others.  I did see on catinfo that Dr. Pierson feels that antibiotics usually aren't necessary in a dental.  The estimate shows they would give the buprenex for the surgery, and send me home with .3mg/mL though I'm going to assume that's to be spread out and not given all at once.  I think the dose is based on his weight.

It looks like Tramadol is another opiate  :( -- is it safe to give him 2 different opiates at the same time?  Or maybe the torbugesic would be better?

Any suggestions for an anti-inflammatory?  (It looks like tramadol and torbugesic and pain-killers only, unless I missed something).

Thank you!!!
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 12:23:33 PM »

It looks like Tramadol is another opiate  :( -- is it safe to give him 2 different opiates at the same time?  Or maybe the torbugesic would be better?

Thank you!!!

No you can't give 2 opiates at once.

Maybe it's metabolized different in cats than dogs:

Quote
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html  Strangely, in the dog, tramadol is not metabolized into an opioid and how tramadol is able to effect pain relief in pets remains somewhat of a mystery.

Sorry, took me a bit to find that part that my vet had told me. I just don't know about cats though.

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 12:35:12 PM »
There is no safe NSAIDS for cats.  That's why metacam is used so often now.  It's approved for use in Europe, in cats.  I would not use metacam in a cat, ever, with the exception of nothing to lose end of life stage pain.  And if a cat was at that stage I would be more likely to let her go, anyway.

No time for more now- will be back later.

Offline Lola

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 03:48:28 PM »
I'm not big on saving or throwing out pet food either.  Get another cat... or give it to the dog.  ;) 

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 05:07:11 PM »
I keep canned food in the fridge all the time.  I store it in the same glass (pyrex) food storage containers I use for thawing raw meals.  The lids are different colors so I know which food is which. 3-4 days is how long most of them are kept.  I keep my fridge very cold, 30 degrees F.

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 07:01:08 PM »
I keep canned food in the fridge all the time.  I store it in the same glass (pyrex) food storage containers I use for thawing raw meals.  The lids are different colors so I know which food is which. 3-4 days is how long most of them are kept.  I keep my fridge very cold, 30 degrees F.

Thanks, MC, I was meaning to ask you how you were doing it, since your furkids aren't getting a full can each.   HeadButt HeadButt  How do you use the remaining -- is it a snack or do you feed it as one meal before starting the next can?

Would 3/4 of a 5.5 oz can plus appox. 1 oz raw be enough, or is that still too much?  I guess I could just start with that (plus no pumpkin) and see how things go.  I called the vet to see if they had FortiFlora, which they said they did, only to get over there and find out, not anymore.   :(  So I guess I'll have to get it from Amazon.  I don't think the duck treats in the feeder are too much of a problem (I put in very small pieces), but I'd like to find another topper, if he'll accept it.   ::)
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: Pookie's Vet Visit
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 10:13:46 PM »
I usually have three different canned foods going at a time.  Jennie gets her Tiki Cat in the morning, and she is the only one who gets that usually so it is in there four days usually before it is used up.  I'm still using up the Wild Calling rabbirt, and chicken formulas, and the rest of the By Nature Organic Turkey, those are eaten by both Jennie and Queen Eva.  I still have some of the By Nature turkey & chicken too, so that is often in there.  I rotate who gets what throughout the day (except for Mazy of course she doens't get all that variety) Thier meal portions are small, genrally speaking.

For example today:  Jennie had .4 oz then .7 oz of Tiki for breakfast.  ..35 oz WC chicken for lunch. 1.11 oz raw turkey breast, liver and a pancreas capsule (plus egg shell calcium, taurine and probiotic) for supper plus a .24 oz snack of By Nature organic turkey. Her bedtime meal which I am about to feed her is going to be 1 oz WC chicken.  Total for the day 3.8 oz.

Queen Eva had .47 oz, then .6 oz Rad Cat lamb for breakfast, and .3 oz By Nature turkey&chicken "spoon fed" as an extra.  For lunch she had .8 oz WC chicken (she was offered 1 oz).  For supper she had 1.16 oz raw turkey breast and liver and a pancreas capsule (plus calcium and taurine) plus a .15 oz snack of By Nature Organic turkey&chicken (again, spoon fed)  Her bed time meal (If she eats it all) will be 1 oz By Nature organic Chicken. Total for the day 4.48 oz

Mazy had .45 oz By Nature turkey&chicken for her breakfast pre-meal (split in two portions)  For breakfast, she had Rad Cat chicken, in three servings-.3, .33 and then .39 (split in two)

For lunch she had .4 oz By Nature turkey&chicken. For her supper pre-meal she had .45 turkey&chicken (split in two)  For supper she had .6 oz of the same, split in 3 servings, then later a snack (alone) of .18 By Nature chicken.  She will have .5 oz of the By Nature chicken for her bedtime meal and around 2 a.m. (because I am going to bed so late, being on vacation starting tomorrow) she will have her middle of the night serving of .3 oz and it will be the By Nature Chicken again. Total 3.9 oz.

So I had, up until tonight, four different canned in the fridge.  The By Nature turkey&chicken was finished at supper time, as was the By Nature turkey, so now I've just got the Tiki, the Wild Calling and the By Nature chicken (just opened) in there.  Tomorrow the WC will be finished and I will be opening another can of the BN turkey&chicken.

And so on.

It may seem confusing written down like this, but I have it pretty much down to a by rote routine, and of course I keep all this written down in the journal, though, surprisingly, I did not need to look at it to write all this down!

As you know, cats have to lose weight very slowly.  I would use a food scale and weigh everything.  Feed him like you normally do for a few days, using the scale so you know exactly how much he is getting. 

Do you have a baby scale to weigh him at home? I strongly suggest getting one.  I think everyone with cats should have one!

Then, cut back by a half ounce a day to start. Weigh him after two weeks. Depending on how much he's lost (if any), then cut back another ounce, so he will be eating one ounce less a day.

The trick is to find the right amount to feed so he loses about 2 ounces a week. That's a half pound a month, which is about as fast as you should go.

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