Author Topic: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)  (Read 23161 times)

Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2012, 10:54:42 AM »
From By Nature:

Quote
Thank you for your inquiry. The ingredients listed on the can are accurate. We're updating our web site to reflect this information. Thank you for bringing this to our attention and we hope you and your cat continue to enjoy By Nature products."

bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild bananamiddlechild

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autumngif autumngif autumngif autumngif autumngif

This does not mean I will become complacent over my struvite kitty's diet.  In fact, I intend to do some heavy research on cooked/supplemented homemade diets, (thanks for the links and support on that) and perhaps vary her diet with homecooked/supplemented, since I have not been able to find even one other commercial food that works for her.

Offline Pookie

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2012, 12:10:32 PM »
 grouphug

That kitty is so lucky to have you!   :)

I started thinking (I know, brace yourselves  Bumpurr1), do certain proteins tend to be associated with crystals?  So I popped on over to www.littlebigcat.com and did a search.  Thought you might find this interesting even though it mentions dogs (hey, they're carnivores, too  :D):

One possible consequence, due to the effect of plant products on urine pH, is increased urinary tract infections. Normal dog urine pH is slightly acidic (from 5.5 to neutral 7.0). Plant products tend to increase pH; struvite crystals and stones form in alkaline urine.

The link to the whole article (from Nov. 2010) is http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/humane-pet-food/

A second article from my search, though not as specific regarding the proteins, but still informative:  http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/urinary-tract-disorders-in-cats/

A little more (from one of Dr. Jean's responses in the comments of that 2nd article I listed):   Directory at http://www.holisticvetlist.com. Many will work long-distance if there‚Äôs no one in your area; I would recommend my colleague Dr. Bert Brooks, http://www.cchvs.com.

I don't know if a holistic vet would be an option, but just tossing that idea out there, esp. if you can find one that will work long-distance.

If I get a chance, I'll see what other information I can find.   Bumpurr1
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Offline Pookie

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2012, 07:23:34 PM »
In my post above, what I meant was that I was wondering if certain ANIMAL proteins had a tendency to cause crystals.  I should have known that it's actually the PLANTS that are the problem.   Doh1 :-[ 

From Dr. Hodgkin's book (aka the "cat bible"  ;D) "Your Cat":

"Plant-based cat foods, specifically dry cat foods with their very high amounts of processed cereal and very low moisture content, cause UTI, pure and simple."  She even has a section "How Do Plant-Based Cat Foods Cause Urinary Tract Disease?" where she states "Dry cat foods, with their high plant content, cause a very alkaline urine pH."

I don't know WHY I wondered if certain animal proteins would be the problem . . .  Doh1 Doh1 Doh1 :-[ :-[ :-[

P.S.  MC, I'm sure you knew all this already.  I just wanted to find this out (about animal proteins & crystals) in case you do decide to go home-cooked.
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2012, 08:41:01 PM »
I knew that plant based proteins are generally useless to cats.  Though HILLS will tell you differently, and tell you that the c/d KIBBLE uses corn because it is a protein source that is lower in magnesium and phosphorous, or some such blather like that. And vets, unfortunately are still buying into that.

And I have read recently that fruit and vegetable matter in pet food can cause a cat to be more prone to urinary tract problems, but I do not remember where, I've been reading so much information lately.

My struvite girl was on a canned diet when she first began having trouble.  Fancy Feast classics mostly, the turkey, beef, and chicken flavors, but my boy cat would eat ONLY Fancy Feast grilled salmon, so she occasionally had some of that, too. So, her body chemistry is certainly prone to the problem.

 However, I was also adding water to her food, my high mineral content well water.  I really think my water has been one of her main problems all along. BUT, I will continue to search out foods, commercial or homemade recipes, that do not use grains OR fruits OR vegetables, for her. I do so hate to feed her one food and one food only.

But she is really coming along now, I think her body is truly starting to recover from all those years of c/d kibble. bananamiddlechild

Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2012, 09:03:58 PM »
By the way. She is getting NO hairball remedy at all, the pumpkin is taking care of any trouble in that way.  Of course, with the change in diet, her shedding has practically disappeared!

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2012, 11:01:01 PM »
Wow.    :)  Thanks for sharing your experiences, MC.   This thread is a total  goldmine of info with yours and eveyone's info   kittyball heartbeatgif

Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 07:25:38 AM »
  It has been 24 days without regurgitation.  NO hair ball trouble.  I can tell when she is feeling urpy and needs a pepcid, she is getting 1/4 or 1/8 pepcid about every 5 days.  On the days she gets a pepcid, two days later she skips a bowel movement so gets a meal with mineral oil in it.

BIG step today.  I have decided to try varying her diet a little now. I just cannot relax with her on the same food for every meal.  In addition her food has menadione in it.  It's the last ingredient, but still, she is getting it with every meal and I want to break that up a bit.

She's shown an intolerance for carrageenan and she won't eat the Weruva or Soulistic brands.  I have some Nature's Variety here, but the one time I fed her that, early in this challenge, her urine pH shot up to 7.5.

So,  this morning for her second meal I gave her .75 ounces of Castor&Pollux chicken stew.  This is a sideways step because this food has oat fiber, brewers rice and fruits and veggies in it. I don't intend it to be a regular part of her diet.  Just something once a week to give her body a change.  I will continue to look for other 'once a week' foods for her, also, if she does okay today on this one.  I'm a little scared, but have to risk it.

By the way, with this unseasonably warm weather they've been getting some outside time.  I make sure she has an empty stomach when I take them out because her habit is to eat grass then bring it back up, and I don't want her to bring up food too.  HOWEVER, while she is eating just as much grass outside, she is NOT bringing it back up. I find it in her poop the next day.  ;D

Offline FurMonster Mom

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2012, 02:22:10 PM »
Awesome news!

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Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2012, 09:12:14 AM »
Poor girl regurgitated her second meal today.  I saw her start, but, other than guiding her to the kitchen floor (rather than the carpet) I let her have at it.  A big wad of grass came up with the food.  I guess she wasn't passing all the grass after all. That grass is from Sunday, and there was a lot of it.  Sigh, I wish she had brought it up outside, right after ingesting it.  Come to think of it, it wasn't her that brings the grass right back up, it was my Bridge Angel Boy. I used to give her a wad of hairball remedy after being outside to help push the grass through, I may have to resort to that again.

It's always something!

Still and all, I still feel positive. She did well with the diet change yesterday and seems more interested in her usual food because of it.

Offline Lola

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2012, 08:15:31 PM »
I am very happy things are going so well.   dance1
I reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly appreciate your posts, MC.  Because of your posts, I have been able to narrow down a problem.  Eliminating foods that contain Carrageenan...our two barfers... barf no more.  Thank you so much.  kisses3  I would NEVER have figured that out on my own. 
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2012, 06:05:03 AM »
I'm so glad Lola, that this has helped you and your kitties.  I've got two still eating mostly foods with carrageenan in them. My struvite girl is the only one who NEVER gets carrageenan.  But she is also the only one getting menadione, since it is in the By Nature Organic.  That food would be darn near 'perfect' if it weren't for the menadione junk (big sigh)

Except for the one grassy regurgitation she is doing great. I took them out yesterday afternoon and again she ate a ton of grass but didn't bring it back up, so I gave her some petromalt when we came back in. She's got to push that grass through, and mineral oil didn't work (that's what I tried last time)

Offline The Kittens

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2012, 07:47:43 AM »
Ya don't, want to push the grass thru, it will end up as a wad, stuck in her intestines, and cause a blockage, similiar to hair balls. Kitties can't digest grass. They eat grass, to throw up. If you let her eat grass, you have to let her throw it up.  

Since Prowler is a crystal kitty, and has had bladder/urine issues, and since, I have done extensive research on it, cause, Hills Science Diet, S/D to disolve the crystals and C/D to manage the crystals, as per a prev vet, and his crystals came back, and because I have an awsome vet now.

Grains are the biggest cause of grains, that, is the plant matter, they are referring to. You need to avoid, corn, wheat, corn gluten, wheat gluten, corn flour, wheat flour, maize (they tried to fool us pet parents, mol, didn't work), maize is corn, any grains, any flour.

You also need to keep them flushed out, this is imperative, cannot stress this enuff.  By keeping them flushed out, you are also diluting the urine. Urine that is too concentrated, burns the bladder walls, and causes bladder issues, makes the think they have to go, even when they don't, they are in and out of the box. Thats, how you keep the ph level low.

Thats why wet is better than dry. Thats why, you need to mix their wet, with water, so its real soupy.

For those, that won't eat wet, like Bump, you can still accomplish this, but it is a major pain in the rear, and sometimes he won't finish it, and/or, it upsets his tummy. You give them 1 teaspoon Gerber baby food, chicken or turkey ONLY, mixed with water, so its like a broth, twice a day.  When you mix dry, with water, thats what happens sometimes, but, the only alternative, and this is per my vet.

The reason vets put crystal kitties on Hills Science Diet and Royal Canin SO, other than, the vets are making money off it, and people buy it, because the word "perscription" was attached to it, and because its only sold at vets, makes people think, its better than sliced bread, so the marketing people, did their job, is these foodies are high in salt. What does eating something real salty accomplish? Ya drink more water.

That, is the object of the game, but, it can be accomplished in a safer way, without feeding them a food high in salt, and grains, which defeats the purpose, which leads to more issues and more vet visits, which, is more money, for the companies.  

There is no magic formula in those prescription foods, there is no medicine in those foods. Its just a bunch of ingredients, mixed together, ya have to read the ingredients.    They slapped prescription on the label and only sold it at vets, duh.

Its the same GARBAGE food, take that, Catsfur!

Since Prowler been on a grain free food, no more crystals. Cut his wet back to once a day, he got bladder issues, urine was too concentrated, ph too high, put him back on wet twice a day, no more bladder issues.

If I ever won the Mega Ball Lottery, I would buy Hills and Royal Canin, and make them go on public TV and tell the consumers, they been a lie'n to them, all these years.  The marketing people, I would tell those bastards, they gotta eat, the food, they ben a tellin the public for years, is healthy.   >:( pangif

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Offline Lola

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2012, 11:24:38 AM »
I'm with Bump.  I thought cats ate grass only to bring up a hair ball that they are unable to pass out the other end.  ??  Changing to an all wet diet, pretty much stopped all hairball issues.  BUT there is always one...one that makes a mad rush to an open door.  She runs for the grass.  She will eat some and almost instantly toss up a furball...and the grass. 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 11:28:06 AM by Lola »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2012, 12:40:49 PM »
Thanks Bump.  I've been working with this struvite kitty for 7 years, we've been through it all, believe me.  There are several threads on her journey from c/d to canned in this forum. :) It took a long time to find a food with ingredients she could tolerate, that I feel comfortable feeding, and that she will eat.  I've found one, only one, so even though it goes against everything I believe in on feeding cats safely, she is eating only one food, though I am, now, beginning to give her a tiny bit of one other food, once every few days.

She does not get water added to her food, because my water is high mineral well water, which makes her pH go high, and struvite start forming.  I don't trust bottled water, so she gets her moisture in her canned food.

She does not regurgitate the grass up. I wish she would, but she doesn't. There is no choice but for it to go through the other way. I'd prefer she didn't eat the grass, but that would mean making her sit in the house while I am out in the yard with the other cats.  I would never do that to her. The other grass eater also passes grass through her poop most of the time, though yesterday she did regurgitate it, with a tiny bit of fur.  I know they don't digest it.  No one really knows WHY they eat it.  It is thought that it is to "make them throw up".  But the fact remains, that most of the time, she does not bring it back up. So that is why I give her the petromalt, to help her pass it, like she would a hairball. (the pumpkin is taking care of hair balls bananamiddlechild so the only time she gets petromalt is if she eats grass and doesn't bring it back up.  They don't go outside every day, usually only once or twice a week so this is not as bad as it might sound)

PS I don't mean to sound arrogant or know-it-all about the struvite issue, or dismiss your information, it is useful and important and may help someone else reading this board. Plus, I am sure there is always more for me to learn..  But I really truly have researched and figured and tested until I am blue in the face, over her diet. I have, tentatively, found something that is working for her, and I pray it continues, but I doubt I will ever stop worrying and watching and sticking pH strips under her when she pees.  funny2

The c/d kibble did not ever make her drink more water, she is a very poor drinker, but it DID control her urine pH and the struvite formation.  The prescription foods do what they are meant to do.  The problem is, because of the horrible ingredients,  at what cost to the cat's general health? I kept her on it because it was working for her and told myself that when it stopped working her for I would stop feeding it.  Well last summer the regurgitation and constipation began, and as it got worse I began taking steps to get her off it.  She's now been off it, completely for....almost 3 months I think, though it took time to find a canned food that works for her. Anyway, I've already posted all that in this and other threads so won't start repeating myself any more. HeadButt

Offline Lola

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Re: It just keeps getting better (getting off the c/d saga continued)
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2012, 04:25:24 PM »
I don't think you sound arrogant at all!!  Doubt anyone thinks that.  I see this thread as a conversation...such as one we all would be having, if we were yapping to each other in real life. 

Oh, and feel free to repeat yourself, your experience, etc. as often as the need arises... in any thread.  Never know when or what may sink in for some, or who reads what thread.  For me, personally, I need all the help I can get!   Bumpurr1
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