Author Topic: It makes me want to cry  (Read 6467 times)

Offline Middle Child

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It makes me want to cry
« on: June 26, 2014, 05:31:13 AM »
Actual words from a veterinarian:

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No disrespect taken, all opinions are welcome here. Personally I don't get as religious about diets as some, most pets without specific medical problems would do well on most of the commercial diets.

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Carbs in cats is an interesting subject. An obligate carnivore, by definition, cannot synthesize certain nutrients and must get them from an animal source (not necessarily the meat, btw). If those nutrients are added to the diet the animal doesn't need meat. It certainly makes sense to feed a cat a diet that mimics its wild diet, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they can't do well on other diets.

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Think about it, if kibble were so horrible the millions of cats eating only kibble would have very high incidence of the diseases attributed by some to kibble. And they don't. Most do just fine.

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Cats are obligate carnivores because they can't synthesize certain nutrients from precursors found in non meat products so adding those specific nutrients to an all vegetable diet would meet their special nutritional needs. However, those nutrients only come from animal sources so it can never be a vegan diet. Bottom line, you can feed a carefully crafted meat free diet to an obligate carnivore but you cannot feed a vegan diet. They should have rabbits or guinea pigs as pets instead.

Offline Pookie

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 08:38:54 AM »
 :o jawdrop   :'(  bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead bangshead
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 09:38:56 AM »
Freaking PETA, no-meat-for-all quacks
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 10:11:07 AM »
While I'm no fan of PITA, don't know what they have to do with Vets being in the pockets of the PFI and profitting from all the Diabetic & blocking cats  -- not to mention the food they are "prescribing" and shilling-trolling the Internet as in the OP, lying to people.

The big question ought to be: HOW they are even allowed to lie to people like that to begin with. 
Example: To keep not just cats -- but Diabetic cats  -- on carbs -- how is that NOT malpractice, for starters?
And then there are the BVLOCKING cats, requiring $$$$$$$$$ PU Surgeries. 

HOW? Is. This. STILL. Being. So. WIDELY. ACCEPTED? 

That's what I wonder...

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 10:27:16 AM »
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Think about it, if kibble were so horrible the millions of cats eating only kibble would have very high incidence of the diseases attributed by some to kibble. And they don't. Most do just fine.

Tell it to these cats

www.diabeticcatcare.com
felinediabetes.com
yourdiabeticcat.com

And THOSE are just the ones with owners lucky to find, and desperate enough to fish for those sites!!!!   :o :o :o :o :o

Offline DeeDee

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 10:40:49 AM »
While I'm no fan of PITA, don't know what they have to do with Vets being in the pockets of the PFI and profitting from all the Diabetic & blocking cats  -- not to mention the food they are "prescribing" and shilling-trolling the Internet as in the OP, lying to people.


When I start hearing about vegan and vegetarian-fed carnivore pets, PETA is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Here's their list with both vegetarian AND vegan options:

http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/companion-animal-food-guide/

Seriously? Those are diets for Carnivores?
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 02:08:58 PM »
Seriously? Those are diets for Carnivores?

sarcasmalert

But Dee!  Our housepets have adapted to these diets!  They're different from their wild ancestors!

[alert off]


HOW? Is. This. STILL. Being. So. WIDELY. ACCEPTED? 

That's what I wonder...

It's called "ignorance."  I think these vets, for the most part, truly believe what they're saying.  This is what they were taught, and they never clued in to the conflict of interest that should have been obvious when the PFI was providing them "educational" materials, along with free pet food.  And sadly, our society stopped teaching people to question authority a very long time ago.  The general public, myself included until I learned better, believes that the vets know what they're talking about, and the vets believe that the folks teaching them in school knew what they were talking about, so who are we/they to question anything? 

I already know what you're going to say:  did they not pay attention when learning the anatomy/physiology of these animals?  And my answer is:  I'm sure they did.  They just never made the connection between anatomy/physiology and diet.  FWIW, I didn't, either, for a long time.   :-[

Vets in particular are very focused on "evidence-based medicine" and "clinical trials."  Who's conducting those trials?  The PFI.  And if the clinical trials show X, then that's what we'll go with.  After all, sarcasmalert the PFI would never do anything to hurt their customers.  And besides, the FDA will protect the pets, right?  [alert off]  At least, that's what everyone thinks/believes, because they don't know better.  Even if they want to ask the questions, they probably don't know where to go to ask them, except the internet.  In my case, none of my searches (and these were searches like "cats vomiting," "cats regurgitating," "cats and IBD") turned up with anything useful until a co-worker suggested home-cooked diets, which eventually led me to catinfo.org.  That was 4-5 years ago, so hopefully people today would have better luck, but I don't know if they would.

It's been said on PFK before:  the only way things will improve is at the bottom, with pet parents putting this information out there the best way we can.  It will take a long time, but we will get there.  The Truth always comes out, eventually.
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 04:25:22 PM »
When I start hearing about vegan and vegetarian-fed carnivore pets, PETA is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Oh certainly relate, DeeDee.   PETA is nuts.   Was too peeved about that shill MC wrote about.

You expect the over-the-top extreme nonsense from PETA, not from someone who (supposedly) took an oath to "Do no harm" to pets put into their "trusted care".     

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2014, 04:52:01 PM »
Pookie, what I really wonder, though, is --

Let's take the "animal welfare and health/well-being" totally out of the equasion for one moment. 

 Put aside the Diabetes & dependance on Insulin & more vet visits; the blocking with the emergency catherisations, and the PU surgeries .  Let's put alllll the pain the pets, themselves, endure aside, for one moment.

How much is the inevitable PU surgery, which seem to average $3,000 and over for the surgery alone.
How much $$  is a bag of corn, glutens & sawdust running for frenzied pet owners because they are led to believe their pet will deteriorate (even more) & die if they don't feed it?     That stuff, alone, cost some major bucks! 

I guess if it was just one or the other, maybe it wouldn't be so bad? I don't know... add declawing, where even more issues come up...

Even with all the emotional aspects aside - lets forget them too.   I wonder this for those consumers who would be paying for services, and products, and expecting somewhat remotely reasonably decent in return --  for what they pay.   




Offline Middle Child

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 05:14:54 PM »
Oh he believes what he says, no question.  He's been brainwashed, bought and packaged.

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 05:32:30 PM »
To add, Pookie:

Am even more jaded because -- back throughout the recall catastrophe, frequented a pet forum where soooooo many people shared soooooo much information.  About the recalled foods themselves, about ingredients,  about everything to look out for.

Despite all that, and despite people still being there, it is TOTALLY backwards.  Try to pass on www.catinfo.org or anythign related and get flamed.  By people who, themselves ,  went there looking for infomation once and were helped !   Today those SAME people will come out flaming over the SAME information which once helped them.

There has got to be a reason, and a verrrrrry influential one... The SAME people KNEW about what was bad, and WHY! That's what gets me.    Now they are all defensive at the mere mention of Dr. Lisa Pierson and any related information. 

People "go with the flow', so I can't count on the people.

(DeeDee said it best, about today's society in general.) 

Thing is, the people aren't the ones in pain...   


Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 05:35:30 PM »
Oh he believes what he says, no question.  He's been brainwashed, bought and packaged.

It's still malpractice -- and fraud, IMO.   Even if somebody held a gun to his head to say those things, it is what it is. 

The problem  is, he's not just somebody professing to be an expert and giving his opinions. He is Licensed. 

(As an aside to that; Who will the majority believe? Someone without a license?  Without a diploma...)

EDIT:  Didn't mean to type this previously:
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People "go with the flow', so I can't count on the people.


meant to type:
WE can't count on the people, and I 'won't' count on the people. 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 06:07:11 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Pookie

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2014, 09:10:24 AM »
Hi CC,

My head’s a bit foggy today, so if I totally missed your point(s), I apologize.

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How much is the inevitable PU surgery, which seem to average $3,000 and over for the surgery alone.
How much $$  is a bag of corn, glutens & sawdust running for frenzied pet owners because they are led to believe their pet will deteriorate (even more) & die if they don't feed it?     That stuff, alone, cost some major bucks! 

Neither the owners nor the vets are connecting it to diet, or if they are, they’re not connecting the issues (and the costs involved) with the type of diet.  For urinary crystals, it’s “let’s focus on the calcium or magnesium in the food,” and for diabetes/overweight, “feed less.”  They’re not looking at what is being fed, and until someone does a bunch of clinical trials PROVING to vets (who will then hopefully educate their patients) how inappropriate dry food is, or how much better wet/raw is, it’s not going to change.  The PFI certainly isn’t going to do those trials.  It would have to be people like those who are doing the Rabies Challenge, and that’s not easy to do.

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There has got to be a reason, and a verrrrrry influential one... The SAME people KNEW about what was bad, and WHY! That's what gets me.    Now they are all defensive at the mere mention of Dr. Lisa Pierson and any related information.

There is:  people do not want to believe that their vets (or the FDA/government) are wrong, and that they were that naive.  I was the same way for a long time.  And my cats paid the price, and still do.   :(

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WE can't count on the people, and I 'won't' count on the people.

I understand your frustration.  There will always be people out there who don’t “get it” for whatever reason (some of them are those who say it’s “just a cat/dog” and don’t take their pet care responsibilities as seriously as we do).  BUT, there are also people out there that are willing to learn.  You were one of them.  So was I.  So are probably most if not all of us here.  Those are the people we can educate, because they are willing and open-minded, or just plain desperate to help a sick pet.

We can’t give up just because there are people out there who choose to remain clueless or be sheep.  Not when there are people out there who, like us, want to do better, if someone would just point them in the right direction.  Those pets have a chance, and I’m not giving up if there’s a way to reach their pawrents.  There is no one else but people like us, because we can’t count on the majority of vets, the FDA or the PFI.

It’s kind of like what we tell ourselves when we want to do better for our furkids and aren’t able to, for some reason:  we do the best we can.

grouphug
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2014, 10:28:04 AM »
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We can’t give up just because there are people out there who choose to remain clueless or be sheep.  Not when there are people out there who, like us, want to do better, if someone would just point them in the right direction.  Those pets have a chance, and I’m not giving up if there’s a way to reach their pawrents.  There is no one else but people like us, because we can’t count on the majority of vets, the FDA or the PFI.

 thumbsup1

I was thinking along the lines of, what really happens with the majority of people, such as in MC's OP.


Will skip the "Pediatricians prescribing coen chips" analogy right now, as pets are considered just "property":


Houses are property and the National Association of Home Builders, backed by the Board of Realtors, wouldn't be allowed to **Convince** every home-buyer/owner to install Chinese Drywall and asbestos in their homes because these things are "Best" for houses  (due to the Asbestos makers and Chinese Dry Wall Makers funding them, which also wouldn't be allowed).

They could share their personal opinions that it is best and it is what they prefer, but would they be able to state it as *Fact* EVERYWHERE without some big-time stink from ANYBODY?   I don't people would excuse them.


And what would happen to them if they tried stating it as "Fact"?   Would people give them a pass because of ignorance? Or just stick to our secret Internet pages, while it would be impossible to find homes anywhere in our areas without Asbestos & Chinese Dry Wall?

Since most  houses would already have the CDW & Asbestos intact  throughout, how many people could afford to import the proper supplies from say Switzerland, and have their homes custon-built with that?  And then who could they FIND to build it correctly?  The bulk of US builders won't BUILD  -- or diagnose structural issues -- without the CDW & Asbestos!!

All the Mediots would also be in an uproar (for ratings) -- and that would be only IF the asbestos & Chinese Dry Wall COs advertising revenue weren't so crucial.
Where is the accountability?

This part of the analogy --
 while it would be impossible to find homes anywhere in our areas without Asbestos & Chinese Dry Wall
 
is  reality where I am, and something, ANYTHING should have improved since the mass recalls...yet it's gone backwards.

(Back then, could run out and buy foods like Wellness, Innova ... Natural Balance, which USED to be safe. And the PETCO had never even HEARD of Soulistic when I asked why I couldn't find it in the store recently :o )

 I wish we all could physically live with our pets Online in one of the safe online communities, but we still need physical supplies, and care, for our pets....  so right back to the bolded analogy above.   :(

We are STILL not backed up as even "Consumers" in ANY way. Still.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:54:45 AM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Pookie

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2014, 12:31:13 PM »
CC, remember . . . “brain fog.”  I’m having trouble following, but I think you’re referring to the corruption/”follow the money” that’s involved in feeding our pets.  That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to be able to have a major impact on it.  It’s how organizations/entities/groups survive.  It doesn’t make it right, it just is.

All we can do is share what we know and learn with others who are willing to listen.  It’s a pebble in a pond.  The waves may start small, but eventually get wider.  Eventually, in time, perhaps the wave people like us have created will help bring down the ignorance perpetrated by the PFI/FDA/vet industry.  Even Rome fell (bad analogy, but go with it).  But it takes time, and patience, and perseverance.

We do the best we can.

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Lord, help me to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”  --Serenity Prayer
2-4-6-8  Please don't over-vaccinate!
"Pass on what you have learned."  -- Yoda, Star Wars:  Return of the Jedi

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