Author Topic: It makes me want to cry  (Read 6453 times)

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 12:53:37 PM »
 :-[    All that rambling I did boiled down to this   :)

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We are STILL not backed up as even "Consumers" in ANY way. Still.


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Lord, help me to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”  --Serenity Prayer

Can't argue with that!!!  To things regarding jobs & work as well!!   thumbsup1

Another silver lining I should be looking at:  I don't think I miss having dogs as much as I thought I would, so why AM I still ranting about ancient history?   Doh1  Doh1      I guess things have worked out for the best. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 01:01:20 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Lola

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2014, 01:58:48 PM »
sarcasmalert

But Dee!  Our housepets have adapted to these diets!  They're different from their wild ancestors!

[alert off]


I have heard that several times.  I find that theory VERY odd. 

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It's called "ignorance."  I think these vets, for the most part, truly believe what they're saying.  This is what they were taught, and they never clued in to the conflict of interest that should have been obvious when the PFI was providing them "educational" materials, along with free pet food.  And sadly, our society stopped teaching people to question authority a very long time ago.  The general public, myself included until I learned better, believes that the vets know what they're talking about, and the vets believe that the folks teaching them in school knew what they were talking about, so who are we/they to question anything? 

I don't speak as well as you, but I will give it my best shot.  :)

It isn't uncommon for ANY company to offer "incentives," for various reasons.  Hills and Purina just take it to the extreme. They KNOW what they are doing.  They are businesses.  Businesses wanting to make money... at all costs. IMHO

Using my vet as an example, and putting aside the vets that absolutely can NOT recommend a non RX wet food...  He recommends (at least to me) wet food, AFTER there is an obvious problem.  So, he IS aware that kibble causes many diseases.  On the other hand, he recommended a kibble "snack" product (for a different cat) that "has been tested and is known for helping to keep teeth clean."  I believe every ounce of his being, believes what he said. 
Just to throw more info out there... he has been a vet for 30-ish years.  He didn't just stop learning, after vet school either... going by conversations he and I have had about different subjects. 
My point is... the man is not a dummy.  He owns his business, but ...I would bet my last nickel, he isn't in business to suck money out of his clients.  I know this from personal experience, and can give several examples.
To give two other examples, of known vets... how long were doctors Pierson and Hodgkins practicing vets, before they made the connection of kibble causing diseases? 
Whatever goes on in vet school... is POWERFUL for a looooong time.

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I already know what you're going to say:  did they not pay attention when learning the anatomy/physiology of these animals?  And my answer is:  I'm sure they did.  They just never made the connection between anatomy/physiology and diet.  FWIW, I didn't, either, for a long time.   :-[

Vets in particular are very focused on "evidence-based medicine" and "clinical trials." 
Who's conducting those trials?  The PFI.  And if the clinical trials show X, then that's what we'll go with.  After all, sarcasmalert the PFI would never do anything to hurt their customers.  And besides, the FDA will protect the pets, right?  [alert off] 

I think you hit the nail on the head, with that one.  Covered In Cat Hair pretty much proved that, in her "review" of the Hills plant tour.  http://coveredincathair.com/content/hill’s-pet-nutrition-center-tour-part-three

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It's been said on PFK before:  the only way things will improve is at the bottom, with pet parents putting this information out there the best way we can.  It will take a long time, but we will get there.  The Truth always comes out, eventually.

Agree.  I don't see the vet school teachings changing anytime soon.  And there is that pesky little problem of certain vets not being allowed to speak against certain brands.  Throw in having to upsell, or join the unemployment line.  The "easiest" solution is to reach furkid parents.  Money talks.  When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes. 
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Offline Pookie

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2014, 03:11:22 PM »
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I don't speak as well as you
   :-* :-* :-*  Thanks!

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Businesses wanting to make money... at all costs.

Absolutely.  And I'm sure they truly believe their food is safe and good for pets.

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To give two other examples, of known vets... how long were doctors Pierson and Hodgkins practicing vets, before they made the connection of kibble causing diseases? 
Whatever goes on in vet school... is POWERFUL for a looooong time.

It's not just what goes on in vet school.  People in general tend to be reactive.  They keep doing the same thing until there's a problem, then look for a quick fix like prescription drugs.  This is true in human nutrition as well as animal nutrition.  Very few people have considered what the impact of diet is on health, and they don't until they have a health problem, e.g. diabetes.  Then it becomes about treating the symptom(s), because "science" really hasn't considered just how large an impact nutrition has on human health.  When I feel better, I'd like to do a blog here on this topic.

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The "easiest" solution is to reach furkid parents.  Money talks.  When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes. 

EXACTLY!   Thanks, Lola!  DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2014, 06:14:07 PM »
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My point is... the man is not a dummy.  He owns his business, but ...I would bet my last nickel, he isn't in business to suck money out of his clients.  I know this from personal experience, and can give several examples.

You are very fortunate to have such an option anywhere near your home.   I (understatement) envy you.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 06:19:15 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Lola

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 06:34:07 PM »
I said...
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Businesses wanting to make money... at all costs.

You said..
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And I'm sure they truly believe their food is safe and good for pets.

I politely disagree.   :D  I think Hills and Purina know... and know they can get away with EVERYTHING that they do... because they can.
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »

I politely disagree.   :D  I think Hills and Purina know... and know they can get away with EVERYTHING that they do... because they can.


And let's not forget the commercials that Purina has that tug at our hearts--Like "I Could Be Great," and "If your dog can dream it . . ." Those commercials make me SO wish that the food wasn't trash, because I'd feed it if I didn't know better.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
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Offline Lola

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 07:01:18 PM »
You are very fortunate to have such an option anywhere near your home.   I (understatement) envy you.
CC,
I agree and I AM very thankful.  He isn't always available, and he is the only vet at that location.  With so many animals, we often end up at a "back-up" vet... mannnny different back-up vets, over the years.  I haven't found another vet yet, that I am willing to keep just as a back-up. 

He isn't Dr. Pierson, but...  if I have an opinion for or against something...  he JOYFULLY gives me the final decision.  Today, for example, he mentioned Arrows "being behind on his vaccinations."  I'm not sure when, or why, he changed his stance on over-vaccinating, but...  he was PERFECTLY okay that it isn't going to happen. 

He believes canned is best (we haven't discussed commercial or homemade raw), but he also believes there is "good" kibble.  I did mention that all daily barfing stopped, once everyone was transitioned to an all wet diet.  My comment definitely caught his attention.... but not as much as when I said that pet food manufactures can legally lie about their food, except for the ingredients label.  And we know there is a lot of room to "play" there as well.  Anyway, I mentioned that I found it very interesting, when doing research into pet foods and pet food companies.  I would bet, if we had more time to chat (and I could speak in complete sentences), I could have peeked his interest enough...
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Offline Lola

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2014, 07:16:46 PM »
And let's not forget the commercials that Purina has that tug at our hearts--Like "I Could Be Great," and "If your dog can dream it . . ." Those commercials make me SO wish that the food wasn't trash, because I'd feed it if I didn't know better.


We had a short pet food discussion, at our last family gathering.  Those discussions NEVER go well.  However I was VERY pleasantly surprised, when one said (and the others agreed)... "Purina sure has stepped the BS up a notch, due to the lawsuit." 

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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2014, 08:47:59 PM »
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CC, remember . . . “brain fog.”  I’m having trouble following, but I think you’re referring to the corruption/”follow the money” that’s involved in feeding our pets.  That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to be able to have a major impact on it.  It’s how organizations/entities/groups survive.  It doesn’t make it right, it just is.

I hear you.  Kinda like those warnings required on cigarette packs now...no smoking on TV shows,  and no beer commercials during prime time ANY time, unless a sporting event....

Just to clarify, this was the basis of my ramblings, from the Vet in MC's OP. Remember him?  >:D

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Think about it, if kibble were so horrible the millions of cats eating only kibble would have very high incidence of the diseases attributed by some to kibble. And they don't. Most do just fine.

Call me weird, but that really irks me.  JMHO. Please excuse the long, senseless previous rants.  :-[   :)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 08:50:20 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 10:51:46 AM »
Just a P.S. as to why I must very much respectfully disagree with your comment here, no matter the ethical issue involved:

 
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but I think you’re referring to the corruption/”follow the money” that’s involved in feeding our pets. That kind of thing has been going on for thousands of years and we are not going to be able to have a major impact on it.  It’s how organizations/entities/groups survive.  It doesn’t make it right, it just is.


What if these people in these cities had just accepted their status-quos, as you point out above? 

http://www.care2.com/causes/la-to-become-largest-city-to-ban-pet-shop-puppy-mill-sales.html


http://www.chicagonow.com/raining-cats-dogs/2014/02/chicago-pet-store-ban-city-moves-to-ban-sale-of-pets-in-pet-stores/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/05/chicago-bans-puppy-mill-sales_n_4904970.html

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Judge-allows-California-cities-to-ban-cat-2497840.php

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The state Supreme Court allowed cities in California to ban cat declawing Wednesday, rejecting veterinarians' challenge to a West Hollywood ordinance that could lead to copycat measures elsewhere.



Offline Pookie

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2014, 08:47:30 PM »
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What if these people in these cities had just accepted their status-quos, as you point out above? 

Well, I never said we should accept it.  I'm not able to focus on reading the links you posted, so I'm going off of the quote you provided.  It's wonderful those folks were able to make a difference.  IMO, you're probably not going to get that kind of grass-roots effort regarding pet food.  I'm not saying it's not possible, and I'm not trying to rain on your parade.  This is why I would love a celebrity to get involved and draw attention to this issue.  They would have better luck than "ordinary" folks like us.

Issues like declawing and puppy mills are, for lack of a better word, easier to prove in terms of the inhumanity, so it's a little easier to get people (press, lawyers/courts) to make changes.  Diet issues aren't as "easy" to prove, because the connection to illness isn't obvious except to folks like us who have learned it the hard way, or the rare vets like Drs. Pierson or Hodgkins.  This goes back to the "show me the clinical study" attitude that pervades human and veterinary medicine.

I really don't know what else to say.  For me, personally, I think the best way to change things when it comes to what people are feeding their pets is to keep spreading the word.  As Lola brilliantly stated, "When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes."  That's just my  2cents.
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Offline Lola

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2014, 01:40:21 PM »
The pet food/vet industry is in a world all its own!  There isn't just ONE thing that needs changing.  Not having to answer to a higher authority, that they don't own... or have their hands involved in some way... makes it almost impossible to bring change. 

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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2014, 10:22:03 AM »
Sorry for not getting back to this thread    :-[


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Issues like declawing and puppy mills are, for lack of a better word, easier to prove in terms of the inhumanity, so it's a little easier to get people (press, lawyers/courts) to make changes. Diet issues aren't as "easy" to prove, because the connection to illness isn't obvious except to folks like us who have learned it the hard way, or the rare vets like Drs. Pierson or Hodgkins.  This goes back to the "show me the clinical study" attitude that pervades human and veterinary medicine.

Guess I was just overly naivé as it would have taken the same amount of time to shoot off a letter of concern to somebody who might be unbiased, as it would to vent on a message forum or post a "share" on FB, IMO.
 Back when I was writing letters, was providing proof (the Diabetic cats; Papers from both Harvard & U of Chicago Law Schools; PU Surgery threads from another huge forum; the teeth and jaws…)  and somebody responded wondering why, if the foods were so bad, why was I the only person he'd ever heard of finding an issue with it?   That was the ONLY reason I tried to encourage others to help in contacting people who might have some unbiased influence,  to try to at least warn people…

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I really don't know what else to say.  For me, personally, I think the best way to change things when it comes to what people are feeding their pets is to keep spreading the word.  As Lola brilliantly stated, "When furkid parents aren't buying... then we will see changes."  That's just my  .

With all due respect to Lola, the only thing "brilliant" in most regions of this country is what marketers & vets in the PFI pockets continue to succeed doing -- getting MORE people loyal to Purina, Hill's and Royal C.  There are LESS half-way decent choices at the over-abundance of pet stores now than there were during & just after the recalls. 

Even once-decent brands like Innova, Wellness, Natural  Balance, EVO,  right on down the line, have gotten worse -- NOT better since the recall fiasco.  Look at all the recalls & issues since they had been bought out.

And just try to get an *unbiased*  objective, straight diagnosis on a pet ailment unless somebody lives West-enough for better odds.  Just where are people supposed to take their pets when they can't diagnose everything online  -- and that's when they notice enough red flags and get desperate enough to even GO online!

Again, I was naivé. 
 Popular demand will ALWAYS dictate what is available, and in this region, Purina and whatever else the vets are endorsing and "prescribing" are KING.  No exaggeration.  People here believe that corn & fillers are just fine, and so is kibble.   That is why there were NO local options when I helped people try to convert a kibble-fish addict, despite the abundance of both huge and small pet supply stores in this area.

Throughout the recalls,  at least there were safe options.   Something, anything, should have improved, but it has only regressed.   

It all depends on location.  So I will (finally) conclude all ranting pertaining to this subject with this: 
 I wouldn't wish pet-ownership on my worst enemy in this region.  They are in for a load of heartache, confusion, and financial dire-straits because there is NObody unbiased to diagnose ailments objectively , as our family vet had done for so many years with unbiased thorough physicals & examinations.

Even among those who do know, who rotate foods/brands (mostly out of fear),  just how many options -- in total-- are available to us, including online?  Unless we go all raw/home-made, how many of us in-the-know can actually feel at ease with ANY commercial foods?   

Comes right back to consumer demand.

That's why I brought Lawyers into the mix.  Where is the consumer protection in ANY/all of this?   It's in the dictionary that these species are carnivores; can't process carbs; no teeth & jaws to grind or chew; low thirst drives.... The dictionary!   :o
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 10:59:22 AM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Lola

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2014, 10:20:50 PM »
Rambling thoughts...

I think if it was easy to contact someone and get the ball rolling... legally... Dr. Hodgkins would have already done it.   

Getting a celebrity involved could bring about a lot of change.  At the very least, change the minds of consumers.  People listen to celebrities.  Oprah just about took down the entire beef industry single handed. 

Like Facebook or not, a story going "viral" is often VERY helpful.

Email, snail mail, chat forums, Facebook, blogs, etc... all play a part, and often make a difference. 

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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: It makes me want to cry
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2014, 10:58:14 PM »
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I think if it was easy to contact someone and get the ball rolling... legally... Dr. Hodgkins would have already done it.   

She testified before the Senate. But she's not Miley Cyrus so people couldn't care less. 

Just one example:  I had brought her background and testimony up repeatedly in that infinite PU Surgery thread on another forum and anybody can go look at it and see allll the people still aiding by their vets' "prescriptions" and feeding the "c/d" kibble, and freaking out because the surgery costs $3,000.00 and upwards.

Consumer demand is the name of the game and people need to be told either by their own Vet and/or in 12-letter sentences, preferably by a "celebrity", how and what to think. 

Don't dispute any of what you said, however I will reiterate that I woudn't wish pet ownership on my worst enemy because the situations posted in previous post aren't going away. It's getting worse.

For people in other areas/regions, who DO have options beit food choices or care -- God bless you.

 I will concede that contacting unbiased people, who don't have to respect and abide by advertisers who pay their employers' revenues, was a very dumb idea. 


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