Author Topic: Mixing kibble and raw  (Read 2098 times)

Offline Pinball

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Mixing kibble and raw
« on: July 15, 2011, 05:39:40 PM »
Right, let's kick off this section with a question:

Is there any solid evidence that raw food should not be fed at the same time (or even the same day) as dry food because the dry interferes with the digestion of the raw food and can lead to digestive problems? I come across this time and again when dog raw feeders post but no one ever seems to be able to provide me with any evidence other than say-sos from other forums. But perhaps someone here knows!

Ta!

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Mixing kibble and raw
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 07:17:22 PM »
Pinball!~!! :)


It is not recommended together because it takes a dog up to 12 hours to digest the kibble while Raw is digested much more efficiently  -- a difference of hours! -- The Raw food should be able to pass freely on its natural course.  The kibble would keep it stuck there and it would all ferment.


 I found some quotes from  Dr. Tom Lonsdale’s book 'Raw Meaty Bones':(Every other site was selling something, or pushing dang Life's Abundance food.) 


"A dog’s digestive system is short (compared to omnivores and herbivores) and is designed for the quick transit though of raw meat (sometimes rotting) and bone.   A short digestive system along with a highly acidic stomach means that potentially harmful bacteria (salmonella & E coli) and other microbes have little time to take up residence and proliferate and cause health problems for the dog.

Slower motility of the mixed kibble/raw meal through a dog’s GI tract would increase the length of time that pathogens could take hold along the dog’s GI tract, thereby increasing the risk of illness to the dog."
 T. Lonsdale


Offline Pinball

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Re: Mixing kibble and raw
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2011, 02:55:11 AM »
Yes, various hours of "transit" time are often bantered about when it comes to food and compared but the dog's digestive system, like the cat's, is complex and surely different factors will be at play to determine how long something will take to digest. Fat digest differently from protein, both of them digest at different times from fibre (think about the "science" of the Atkins diet), it is affected by the level of stomach acid (which in turn is affected by the level of starvation), it is affected not only by the moisture in the food but also the moisture in the system, it is affected by the temperature (again not only of the food but also the internal system). Sooooooooooooooo, considering that there are soooo many factors that all play a part when it comes to digestion, isn't it a bit dubious that one particular factor is highlighted and talked about. Particularly, since no one appears to have done a comparative, scientific study on the importance of these factors as well as the type of food.

Also note that the venerable Lonsdale himself is couching it in terms of "coulds", clearly also not quite knowing what goes on but covering backs because something could happen! .....

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Mixing kibble and raw
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2011, 09:58:05 AM »
Hopefully other RAW feeders with more insight will be along, but from my uneducated perspective:

"These (high carb dry food) diets also encourage over-growth of the bacterium Clostridia perfringens"

coupled with the raw meats which the dog would normally process before the Samonella & bacteria have a chance to settle and wreak havoc, is double jeopardy.  It makes sense, IMO.

As far as scientific studies, we'd have to survey Raw feeding veterinarians, for their patients are the largest unbiased studies we'll ever see.
Meanwhile the closest we're going to get is from books, and input from Veterinarians with the personal experience, such as this one, as everything is funded by the commercial PFI.

Going Raw - by Linda Aronson, DVM
...
There have been several important “aha” moments that have led me to raw feeding....


Dr. van Kruningen (Van Kruningen, et al. The influence of diet and feeding frequency on gastric function in the dog. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 10:294-324, 1974) had linked the disease to bacterial fermentation of high carbohydrate commercial dog foods. The incidence was particularly high in dogs fed once vs. twice a day. The stomachs of dogs fed a commercial diet were substantially larger than those fed on a raw meat and bones diet, and bigger in dogs fed once a day vs. 2 or 3 times a day on commercial diets but not on raw diets.

It takes a dog 15 hours to digest a kibble meal, but only 4 to 6 hours to digest one of meat and bones. He then studied the contents of the gastrointestinal tracts of wild canids that had died of natural causes in the national parks. As he said (please imagine German accent here), “not one of them had Purina dog chow.” Nor did they have any grains or soybeans. Similarly, monkeys and marmosets fed commercial pelleted diets were the ones that developed gastric dilatation (in humans beer, certain vegetables and soup have been incriminated). These diets also encourage over-growth of the bacterium Clostridia perfringens and this is thought to be a contributing factor. The worst diets are those that derive the majority of their protein from soybean meal and are high in fermentable carbohydrate – but basically to be formed into kibbles a diet must contain ~ 60% carbohydrate....http://www.kincurranbeardedcollie.com/Going%20Raw.pdf

I don't have dogs anymore but should I ever relocate and adopt, getting to the bottom of all this info will be crucial.   :)

Offline Pinball

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Re: Mixing kibble and raw
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2011, 10:10:45 AM »
Thanks for the link CC, certainly makes interesting reading (and I did imagine a German accent lol) but dry food needs about 60% carbs to be formed into kibble? What about the likes of orijen that contain only about 20% carbs?

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Mixing kibble and raw
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2011, 10:38:04 AM »
I don't know when she wrote it.
In 2007 Orijen was unheard of, to us anyway (we were lucky to find EVO and foods like that and we had to travel for it, despite big box and other stores nearby. No demand yet.)

I would imagine that anything in cereal form would have the same effect though and less carbs would mean  somewhat quicker to process, but still nowhere near Raw's time.  JMHO.

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Re: Mixing kibble and raw
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2011, 03:20:53 PM »
Hi Pinball!

Thanks for the link CC, certainly makes interesting reading (and I did imagine a German accent lol) but dry food needs about 60% carbs to be formed into kibble? What about the likes of orijen that contain only about 20% carbs?

The carbs making the dry don't have to be grains or soy.  Potato and sweet potato are often used in grain-free dry foods.  In Dr. Hodgkins' book, "Your Cat, Simple Secrets to a Longer, Stronger Life," she explains how dry food is made and all dry food does require a lot of carbs (starches) in it in order to make the kibble.  I know you're asking about dogs, but I wanted to share that with you in the hope it would help.
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