Author Topic: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...  (Read 2233 times)

Offline Lola

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RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« on: April 21, 2017, 09:09:59 PM »
.... worded (and explained) in a much nicer way.   ;D


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Offline Middle Child

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 08:00:02 AM »
Humph.  When a vet has a client, even ONE client, especially one whom she knows does research and learns, telling her how bad those foods are, you'd think she might question her "didn't know" mind set and start changing her mind and consequently, the way she recommends these foods.  But no...it's easier to just keep on the way she's always done.

And..I never used to think this years ago, but I do believe it now.  Vets, clinic owners and staff vets, push these food because they bring in profit, and incentives.

 And business. I am positive there are many vets out there that know these foods are bad, and know that a pet eating this crap is going to continue to have health problems.  I also think that is why vets tell clients "Oh sure that Meow Mix is fine to feed your cat" Because that vet knows a cat fed meow mix is going to have a lot of health problems.  Cha ching.

Offline DeeDee

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2017, 11:54:55 AM »
So this homemade diet section is why my vet is becoming more open to homemade diets. He actually told me about the new service the other day. I told him that UT was doing some cutting edge things now in Integrative medicine for those of us that were trying to raise their dogs more naturally like they'd been raised in the past, while still offering western medicine for those that wanted nothing else:

https://vetmed.tennessee.edu/vmc2/SmallAnimalHospital/Nutrition/Pages/UTVMC-Pet-Nutrition-Services.aspx

I told him I'd do it IF either of them ever develops any kidney or liver disease. But he's actually more open to it now. I also told him that all the reading I'd done was what enabled me to come up with a lower potassium diet for Vlad on my own, but I'd definitely want help if either of them developed those other problems.

But he IS seeing the light like he was before those Hills Reps got hold of him after the first year of him being in practice.

Edit: He's still convinced that high protein (40% or above) is a cause of a lot of health issues. I suppose kidney disease. I told him that I give them a lot more veg/fruit than most of the Dr's that believe in BARF diets recommend--which would be about 25% percent of the diet to mimic stomach contents. But he's now got a copy of their diet anyway.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:00:28 PM by DeeDee »
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Offline Pookie

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2017, 10:37:27 PM »
Quote
  I think we [veterinarians] should be the ones who help here, and I think it should be more important than learning the latest drug for whatever disease is out there. . . 

Yes, absolutely.  Your job is to work with us, the pet parents, to keep our pets as healthy as possible, and that includes learning ON YOUR OWN if necessary.  For pity's sake, how many pets do you people see with IBD, kidney disease, allergies, UTIs, bladder stones that block the urinary tract, diabetes, obesity, etc.?  And it doesn't occur to you people that there must be SOME reason why these diseases are so much more prevalent now than they were even 20 years ago?  Do you HONESTLY think that it's a genetic issue and nothing else?

And when, to MC's point, you have pet parents who have educated themselves out of desperation to find answers so they can improve their pet's quality of life and reduce the suffering, coming to you and telling you what they've learned, you have an obligation to LISTEN to what they tell you instead of dismissing it as bogus information from the internet.  Because people who take the time to find the answers aren't stupid, they're not looking at just any article online and running with it, they are reading and researching until their heads are spinning, because they love their pets THAT MUCH.  These are our family, our children.  For some of us, our pets are all we have.  And you should d-amn well keep an open mind and pay attention, because who knows, you may actually learn something that will help your other patients.  That's what GOOD veterinarians do.  And if you'd rather keep your patients sick so you can have an income, then you have no freaking business being in a "profession" that claims to help or heal.

Oh, and by the way, here's a newsflash for all those vets (or regular doctors) who think all online information is bogus:  there are actual clinical trials, or abstracts (summaries) of clinical trials, posted online.  They're pretty easy to find.  And they're NOT bogus.

Ok, rant over.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 11:07:22 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Lola

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 12:44:35 PM »
I'll play Devil's advocate.  Ramblings in no partiuclar order.   ;D

Vets are HIGHLY influenced by Purina and Hills in vet school.
VERY little is taught about nutrition.  What is taught....is done so by Purina and Hills.
Hills backs their claims concerning the RX carp, with their so-called science.  They don't mention that trials (for example) include 6 healthy kittens being fed the carp for 8 weeks.  They don't mention the massive salt content (in some foods) is what "helps" the cat to drink more water.  Just to name a few examples. 

Vets have to diagnose and treat many different animals, and all possible issues.  They often don't have the luxury that a Primary Care physician (for people) who has the ability to refer a patient to a doctor that specializes in X disease or condition. 
Don't vets know that cats are carnivores?  I would assume yes, BUT the PFI states that their foods contain x amount of meat, great ingredients, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Shouldn't vets get a clue after a while?  SOME do.  I think some don't because Hills and Purina are "always around" for updated nutritional "education."   
The Hills "cheat sheets" seem to be pretty powerful too.  X food will help x disease. 

I just can NOT believe that the majority of people that want to become a vet, do so for any other reason then their love for animals.  They walk into vet school innocent.  Hills and Purina ruin and misinform them. 

There is misinformation out there in commercials, advertisements everywhere, pet food labels, most vets, etc. stating how great this and that brand is.  How wonderful kibble is. X brand of kibble contains real meat. Kibble cleans teeth.  Yadda, yadda, yadda. 
I think most vets (even if they COULD) would have a difficult time convincing the majority of their clients to feed raw... or even canned.  I remember how far out it seemed to me when a vet recommended wet food for one of my cats.  It went against everything I thought I knew.  Everything I thought I knew was a lie?!  That was a hard one to swallow!   I did feed canned, BUT... I did go back to feeding a "quality" kibble for a short time.  It was the second trip to ER that convinced me to listen to the "kooks on the internet," and do some research.   

While recently at my "pro-raw" vet's office, I overhead some of a conversation between the vet and another client.  When the client mentioned she fed kibble, the vet said ... "Oh, you feed kibble."  She said it with a surprised tone.  Hard for me to explain.  She said it in a way that would give the impression (to the client) that feeding kibble was not the norm...so she was surprised.  The vet was acting...lack of a better explanation.  I heard a few more bits and pieces with the vet suggesting a wet diet.  My point... at least the impression I got... the vet was not wanting to offend her client, but she did want to inform her.  She strongly made a wet diet recommendation and gave a few reasons why.  From what little I could hear, the client wasn't open to change.  The vet was then left in the position to treat the cat as best she could... under the circumstances.

How often do you hear a person state that they spent x amount of dollars on RX "food." Many furkid parents assume, since they paid through the nose for that carp.... it MUST be good! 

/end

I'm not giving vets a total "out," by ANY means. After all, zoo nutritionists know to feed cats, wolves, etc raw meat! 
I'm also not blaming furkid parents. 
I'm just thinking back to when wet and raw were first mentioned to me... and my experience with two very different vets. 

I think the video posted is good because educated vets are explaining why they themselves didn't "get it" and why so many vets don't.  People are more apt (IMHO) to listen to someone with DVM after their name.  As angry as the subject matter gets most of us... anger turns off a lot of people.  The presentation, in this video, is not angry.   The more people that can be reached... the better. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 12:57:16 PM by Lola »
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Offline Lola

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2017, 01:19:47 PM »
One more comment. :)
Zoo nutritionists know what a cat, wolf, etc. should eat.  Are they smarter, or just not influenced like the PFI influences vets?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 01:21:43 PM by Lola »
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Offline Middle Child

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2017, 01:22:56 PM »
One more comment. :)
Zoo nutritionists know what a cat, wolf, etc. should eat.  Are they smarter, or just not influenced like the PFI influences vets?

Well, there you go.

Offline Pookie

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2017, 05:04:56 PM »
You make valid points, Lola.  And I don't mean to come off as angry.  My experience was 2 cats that vomited/regurgitated their food several times a day, EVERY day, for YEARS.  I went to multiple vets.  Not ONE asked what I was feeding, or suggested changing their diet.  I'm not talking raw, just changing by removing the kibble.  I had always heard cats needed both ("kibble cleans their teeth") so it never occurred to me that they could live on just wet food.

I remember when they were kittens, asking the vet what to feed.  Wet?  Dry?  His answer:  "Yes."

Years later, there came a time when Pookie couldn't keep down any dry.  Not even a couple of pieces.  I asked the same vet, How do I get him back on the dry?  His answer, "I don't have a clue."  That's a quote.  There was a perfect opportunity for him to tell me, it's okay if he can't eat it, he'll be fine on canned only.  I went to a different vet.  He was willing to try, and eventually I did get Pookie on the kibble again, but that was another vet who could have told me that it's ok to just feed canned, and he didn't.  And clueless soul that I was, I didn't stop and think, hey, if he can't keep down the dry, then maybe HE SHOULDN'T EAT IT.   Doh1 Doh1 

After Pookie was back on the kibble and I was seeing yet another vet, I asked why they had these digestive issues.  He blamed genetics (well, yeah, any cat isn't going to tolerate something it never evolved to eat, but I didn't know that at the time) and also made the comment, "A cat'll throw up as soon as look at you."  Seriously?  So daily horking is acceptable because it's a cat?!?!???

I was appalled when I learned that the PFI provides the so-called nutritional training to vet schools.  IMO, that shouldn't be permitted.  It's a serious conflict of interest, and as we've seen and experienced, most vets don't think to question this.  And they should. 

My other rant:  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.  If you "prescribe" the same food over and over again, and you don't see the pets getting better, or you see them developing new problems, then it's INSANE to keep prescribing it (or for pet parents, to keep feeding it).  At some point, you have to ask yourself if you're really helping your patients.  If Dr. Hodgkins can do it (and she worked for Hill's at one point), then more of them should.  Especially when pet parents, who have researched their heads off, present them with information.  IMO, there is NO excuse for ignoring what is being handed to them.  The vet didn't have to take the time to do the research -- the pet parent did.  So they can't take 5 minutes to read or listen to what's being provided?  Sorry, that's inexcusable IMO.  This is not about the vet's ego, it's about the well-being of their patients.

Bottom line for me personally:  my cats spent 5 years constantly bringing up their food.  FIVE YEARS.  I went to several vets and it still took five years, and it wasn't even a vet who finally pointed me in the right direction, it was a co-worker.  Those are years of a good quality of life that my cats will never get back, and heaven only knows the impact it had on their long-term health.  Did it contribute to losing Pookie to cancer before he was 12?  I'll never know.  But there is absolutely no reason in this day and age for vets to not listen or take the time to learn when there are so many pets suffering.  The information is out there if they just open their minds to it.  And it's a violation of a pet parent's trust when they come to a vet for help and the vet refuses to educate themselves for the sake of their patients.  I'm not saying they all deliberately ignore information, but there are some out there that do.

One more comment. :)
Zoo nutritionists know what a cat, wolf, etc. should eat.  Are they smarter, or just not influenced like the PFI influences vets?

Y'know, it wouldn't shock me if the PFI tried to develop a kibble for them.  Maybe they would, if there were more zoos.  But there's more money to be made selling pet food to pet parents since there's a lot more of us and our domesticated furkids.

BTW, you are absolutely right that anger turns off people.  Believe me, I could sound a lot angrier here than I actually do.   :)  It's an anger born of pain.  If a person sees their child suffer, they will move heaven and earth to fix it.  Some of us tried, and the people we counted on to help us, failed us.  Failed our pets.  And it didn't have to happen.  And it wouldn't happen if more vets would think and not just blindly believe what the PFI tells them because the PFI also gave them free pet food while they were vet students, or because they saw the PFI's logos on their textbooks.  I give full credit to the ones that do learn and have open minds.  DrLisaPiersonWorthy DrLisaPiersonWorthy I think they're wonderful.  I just wish there were a lot more of them.

Ok, now I'll stop, I promise.  And I apologize for sounding angry.  I hope I didn't turn off anyone.

P.S.  I don't mean to shout by using caps for certain words.  It's just much easier to use caps then go back and bold them or put them in italics.  Yeah, I'm lazy that way.   :-[ :)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 05:11:12 PM by Pookie »
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Offline Lola

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2017, 05:20:12 PM »
We are all angry.  Rightfully so.  My comment about anger had nothing to do with any of you or your comments.  No apology necessary.  I liked the calmness of the presentation in the video. 


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Offline Lola

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2017, 05:22:07 PM »
PS
I'm angry at myself too.  How in the world did I accept that daily or weekly barfing was NORMAL.  How did ANYONE convince me of that? 
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 05:27:23 PM »

Y'know, it wouldn't shock me if the PFI tried to develop a kibble for them.  Maybe they would, if there were more zoos.  But there's more money to be made selling pet food to pet parents since there's a lot more of us and our domesticated furkids.



Soooo, there's this food called  MAZURI® Exotic Animal Food. They're owned by Land O’Lakes. Land O’Lakes owns Purina Mills. There's been a recall in all of that:

http://www.poisonedpets.com/land-olakes-further-expands-an-already-vast-purina-feed-mazuri-and-labdiet-recall/


So, what kind of animal are you looking to feed? http://www.mazuri.com/
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
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Offline Lola

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2017, 07:04:59 PM »
Said with sarcasm.  Thanks. DeeDee..  groangif
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2017, 07:24:57 PM »
Said with sarcasm.  Thanks. DeeDee..  groangif

Just making sure you knew. . .There's already a food for that. :D

Though I'm not really sure why they'd have kibble for wolves when they've got supplements for slabbed meat?

Are they admitting by having the supplements available that they really should be eating slabs of meat?

Same thing for exotic felines.
"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." Edward Hoagland
"Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog; but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."

Offline Pookie

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Re: RX Foods Are CRAP! Or...
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2017, 08:18:51 PM »
PS
I'm angry at myself too.  How in the world did I accept that daily or weekly barfing was NORMAL.  How did ANYONE convince me of that? 

Same here.  grouphug  Hug1

Just making sure you knew. . .There's already a food for that. :D

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