Author Topic: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?  (Read 4132 times)

Offline Lola

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It was mentioned to me (thanks CC!) that if it was PROVEN, in a court of law, that cats are strict obligate carnivores...would the pet food industry HAVE to make some SERIOUS changes?  


http://www.animal-lawyer.com/html/about_mr__karp.html

Quote
Proving a cat's not an obligate carnivore would be like somebody trying to prove the Earth is flat. 
There's no argument. 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 09:20:57 PM by Lola »
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Offline Mo

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 10:02:34 PM »
I never thought of trying to do something like that - though it is certainly worth a try.

Random: That attorney lives in the same county as me...

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 09:05:14 PM »
I never thought of trying to do something like that - though it is certainly worth a try.

Random: That attorney lives in the same county as me...

Wow, Small Internet!

 I had submitted details regarding the pet food matter in general, citing "our DVMs" and the Diabetic cats in remission, to many people back in 2008 and Mr. Karp was the only one who thanked me for the detail in which I'd presented the issue.
But I didn't think to look at it from this angle -- I was only trying to convince him how "bad" the foods were.

And to show that this idea isn't so far fetched:

J. Patrick is now practicing in Pa. http://www.reedsmith.com/our_people.cfm?widCall1=customWidgets.content_view_1&cit_id=10373


I know it's looooong but here is the Harvard Law Paper I cite often -- wonder how many readers have gotten as far as the notes to see:

http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html


Quote
[275] A personal anecdote illustrates this point. When my cat was a kitten he developed a severe urinary tract infection caused by urinary crystals. The vet suggested different types of dry food combined with an overwhelming dose of anti-biotics sure to almost kill any 5 pound kitten. After months of agonizing treatments, not to mention expensive drugs, and dozens of sleepless nights listening to my poor cat cry out in pain as he attempted to relieve himself, I was ready to throw in the towel. The vet’s final suggestions included ultrasounds and exploratory surgery to determine if he had cancer. Not once did the vet suggest I switch to only canned foods. Luckily, a very educated friend suggested I put the cat on a regimen of probiotics (to repair his severely damaged digestive system) and canned foods. Within one week my kitten was healthy as a horse. I have recently seen an increase in the number of articles discussing the tendency for male cats to develop chronic crystalluria from a grain-based dry food diet. But 6 years ago, three different vets in at least a dozen visits never mentioned a word about changing his diet to canned foods.
[/size][/size][/size]
 
And:

109 of 110 people found the following review helpful:
I am a cat veterinarian who agrees with Dr. Hodgkins, November 8, 2007
By Peggy W. Larson "Peggy W. Larson"Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Your Cat: Simple New Secrets to a Longer, Stronger Life (Hardcover)
Quote
Dr. Hodgkins' book is right on the money. Her background with the pet food industry makes her well informed on the subject of feline diets. Cats are obligatory carnivores which means they make most of their energy from meat, not carbs. I am also a veterinarian/lawyer as is Dr. Hodgkins and I have been recommending a meat diet for cats for the past 10 years. Clients who follow my advice have healthy cats who live long lives. My own cats live long healthy lives on the diet recommended by Dr. Hodgkins. As a lawyer, I would consider it malpractice if a veterinarian put my cat on a corn-based dry cat food. Far too long, the pet food industry has controlled pet diets without proper peer reviewed research on the contents of their pet foods. A rodent, the primal food for cats, is 3% carbohydrates, 40% protein and 57% fat, minerals and fiber. To be a healthy cat food, their diets must mimic that of their primal food source. READ THIS BOOK! Then talk with your veterinarian about improving your cat's health with a healthy, meat based diet.
[/size][/size][/size]
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Cat-Simple-Secrets-Stronger/product-reviews/0312358016/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
 
And our other favorite DVM is also an ESQ, one Elizabeth Hodgkins.
 
It's really not as far-fetched as it seems. It would be TOO easy for somebody to prove this, IMO, and settle the score, once and for all.
 

Offline Lola

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 09:37:34 PM »
Quote
As a lawyer, I would consider it malpractice if a veterinarian put my cat on a corn-based dry cat food. Far too long, the pet food industry has controlled pet diets without proper peer reviewed research on the contents of their pet foods.

I wonder just how pizzed off she has to get, to legally go after the PFI (in general) in a court of law?  Or maybe she has considered it, but...  ?? 
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 08:08:38 AM »
I wonder just how pizzed off she has to get, to legally go after the PFI (in general) in a court of law?  Or maybe she has considered it, but...  ??  

Dr. Larson I believe is in her 70s now, and if she was a pet owner today, she probably would.

I think the problem is that a pet owner, in that situation, would never, ever, remotely consider it.
 
Too out of the realm. So their cats will just keep on getting blocked, vomiting, and owners paying thousands for that PU surgery on TOP of the previous visits for the catherisations...and then there's the serynge (sp?)...Insulin...with cats...

It would be neat to take a poll somehow with Medical aside -- how much $$$ just in replaced carpeting-flooring because of vomiting/urinating cats because they are eating something they can't even chew/process?


 




Offline Pookie

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 08:41:53 AM »
Geez, that anecdote could have been me, except the issue was vomiting, not crystals.  But the rest . . . visiting several vets, lots of drugs, etc. and NOT ONE recommending an all wet diet . . . been there, done that.

I haven't replaced the carpet yet, though I'm thinking about it, but I can give you medical:  in the 5 years it took me to figure this out, I spent about $2,000 or more, and that may not include the "prescription" foods.  Sigh....

"Peer reviewed . . ."  problem is, most of the "peers" are vets that were educated by the PFI.

Here's an idea, though I don't know how feasible it is:  how about a class-action suit by pet owners?  (Stupid question--who do they sue?  The PFC is just doing what's "worked" for decades.  Vets?  They're just going by what they learned in vet school?  So maybe AAFCO?  See, this is why I'm not a lawyer--- I'm confusing myself. :-\
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 09:43:28 AM »
Geez, that anecdote could have been me, except the issue was vomiting, not crystals.  But the rest . . .

"Peer reviewed . . ."  problem is, most of the "peers" are vets that were educated by the PFI.

Here's an idea, though I don't know how feasible it is:  how about a class-action suit by pet owners?  (Stupid question--who do they sue?  The PFC is just doing what's "worked" for decades.  Vets?  They're just going by what they learned in vet school?  So maybe AAFCO?  See, this is why I'm not a lawyer--- I'm confusing myself. :-\

Hi Pookie  :)

There was one (if you can even call it that, with the way it was non-handled) --  the 2007 recall catastrophe.
AND Dr. Hodgkins testified before the Senate!

All that's happened since then is more clever marketing, more "prestigious" veterinarians endorsing these food$ (google Tony Buffington for one catsterpuke) ...

Other than on the net, did you hear a peep anywhere about the Purina recall this year? How about ANY recall?

We can call this food "bad" and "species inappropriate" until the cows come home but THEY have the "proof" that this food is "good" because they have the 'research', the trials ... $$$$$ ..Mediots... everyone and everything mainstream, as well as the Gov't and veterinary associations under their wing.

BUT they can't prove a cat isn't what it is.

(The Gov't and all those other "associations" or whatever, sure as heck wouldn't want to figure out what else to do with all the waste they and everybody else are profiting obscenely from.)

People will pay for PU surgeries, and new flooring, & Insulin & antibiotics & steroids, along with even more expensive carb-laden food, why? Because they have NO idea what a cat really IS. They think they can chew, process carbohydrates just fine, and then will continue to wonder why they vomit and keep blocking. What can be proven with no unreasonable doubt -- they just don't know.

And until then, the others will win, because they hold ALL the cards  -- but this one.



Offline Pookie

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 11:44:15 AM »
You just HAD to rain on my parade, didn't you, CC.   :'(   :P

I think it's time to call out the Bumper Sticker Brigade.  When we have all the entries from the contest, I'm seriously hoping everyone picks at least one (whether it's the winner or not, as long as they like it/agree with it) and makes a bumper sticker or something to put on their car (or in the window).  Who knows how many people we'll reach that way?

Chaaaaargggeee!!!!!   thumbsup1 thumbsup1 thumbsup1
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 11:46:47 AM »
Pookie, I'm sorry    :-[ :)

What do you think of contacting the folks mentioned in this thread, too?  About the ONE thing those people CAN'T lie about?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:48:54 AM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 12:08:01 PM »
if it was PROVEN, in a court of law, that cats are strict obligate carnivores...would the pet food industry HAVE to make some SERIOUS changes?  
http://www.animal-lawyer.com/html/about_mr__karp.html


Think I have an answer.   Pet Parents would make the changes because they'd KNOW (for a change) and they won't have to have cats suffering blockages, surgeries, vomiting....(not to mention, the cats themselves who wouldn't be needlessly suffering anymore.)

I wonder if the mediots would carry such a preposterous story?  Heck "crazy lawsuit" always sells!!!  I STILL hear references to the lady who sued Mickey D's over hot coffee for a gazillion $$$ and Steroids in Baseball suits in Congress! (Roger Clemens, anyone?)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:10:33 PM by CarnivorousCritter »

Offline Lola

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 05:33:15 PM »

Think I have an answer.   Pet Parents would make the changes because they'd KNOW (for a change) and they won't have to have cats suffering blockages, surgeries, vomiting....(not to mention, the cats themselves who wouldn't be needlessly suffering anymore.)

I wonder if the mediots would carry such a preposterous story?  Heck "crazy lawsuit" always sells!!!  I STILL hear references to the lady who sued Mickey D's over hot coffee for a gazillion $$$ and Steroids in Baseball suits in Congress! (Roger Clemens, anyone?)

Like feline-nutrition.org says..."it starts from the bottom up." 
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Offline Pookie

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 12:20:23 PM »
Pookie, I'm sorry    :-[ :)

What do you think of contacting the folks mentioned in this thread, too?  About the ONE thing those people CAN'T lie about?

Sorry it took me so long to respond.  We could contact them, but I have to say (and now I'm raining on the parade) that if the pet food recall litigation didn't change things, I can't imagine that any other litigation would.  I'm speculating here that in order to really get the mediot's (love that term) attention, the lawyers would have to go after the PFI, but the industry will just do a lot of spin and the mediots will ignore it because these are their sponsors.  I doubt going after the American Veterinary Association probably would get a lot of attention.

You know who I think I'd like to see in court?   The vet schools.  These people are supposed to teach their students, not just turn education over to a pet food rep, and they have to know what a conflict of interest it is to take grant money from the PFI and then allow those reps to teach about nutrition.  But they don't have a lot of money (which is why they take the grant money) so I don't know that that would get a lot of attention, either.

I think, to Lola's point, it needs to start from the bottom up.  But then again, maybe I'm being too "gloom and doom" about this.  Please feel free to give me a different perspective--I don't like being gloomy.
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Offline Lola

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2011, 03:10:26 PM »
Sorry it took me so long to respond.  We could contact them, but I have to say (and now I'm raining on the parade) that if the pet food recall litigation didn't change things, I can't imagine that any other litigation would.  I'm speculating here that in order to really get the mediot's (love that term) attention, the lawyers would have to go after the PFI, but the industry will just do a lot of spin and the mediots will ignore it because these are their sponsors.  I doubt going after the American Veterinary Association probably would get a lot of attention.

You know who I think I'd like to see in court?   The vet schools.  These people are supposed to teach their students, not just turn education over to a pet food rep, and they have to know what a conflict of interest it is to take grant money from the PFI and then allow those reps to teach about nutrition.  But they don't have a lot of money (which is why they take the grant money) so I don't know that that would get a lot of attention, either.

I think, to Lola's point, it needs to start from the bottom up.  But then again, maybe I'm being too "gloom and doom" about this.  Please feel free to give me a different perspective--I don't like being gloomy.

I had a lot of the same questions as you.   :)  In a nut shell, too much can be argued as opinion.  A strict obligate carnivore, not having flat molars to chew dry...can't be argued.  It would be pretty easy for a dry food feeder to bring in their feline's daily barf piles for extra proof.  ;)

PS  I lean more towards Justine Patrick being interested...
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Offline CarnivorousCritter

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 10:09:51 PM »
...but I have to say (and now I'm raining on the parade) that if the pet food recall litigation didn't change things, I can't imagine that any other litigation would.  I'm speculating here that in order to really get the mediot's (love that term) attention, the lawyers would have to go after the PFI, but the industry will just do a lot of spin and the mediots will ignore it because these are their sponsors.  I doubt going after the American Veterinary Association probably would get a lot of attention.

You know who I think I'd like to see in court?   The vet schools.  These people are supposed to teach their students, not just turn education over to a pet food rep, and they have to know what a conflict of interest it is to take grant money from the PFI and then allow those reps to teach about nutrition.  But they don't have a lot of money (which is why they take the grant money) so I don't know that that would get a lot of attention, either.

I wrote every Consumer Fraud and Animal Law attorney whose info I could find, about exactly what you've said Pookie thumbsup1;

Here's a sample of what I was writing to people, including Law Professors whose Universities had links to contact the individual Prof.s & Deans:

"Please consider taking this information into account and perhaps sharing it with your colleagues as well, research I've compiled after having learned it all the hard way? . When will somebody finally expose this scam? (For starters, a feline is not even capable of chewing!)"  

These people *probably" have dry-fed cats themselves, which have been living to the "ripe old age of 15" on Purina. Doh1

I had a coworker who did just that and his cat (of course) had issues. He kept telling me "but I give my cat a little salmon now too..."   Doh1  And I kept telling these people, "then how about making cows eat raw meat with their teeth?"

People don't "get" that they are inadvertently abusing their animals.



Offline Pookie

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Re: Could THIS Attorney Turn Things Around For Obligate Carnivores?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 08:17:39 AM »
I'm still waking up, so this may not make sense, but I was wondering if educating the pet insurance companies would do anything?  They'd save a lot of money if their clients were informed about proper nutrition for their pets, since there would be fewer health issues/vet bills.  Or are those companies in the pockets of the PFI, too?
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